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agoutihead


Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 1,449
Last seen: 6 years, 7 days
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need a more indepth insight about anti deppressants please.
#5433710 - 03/23/06 10:08 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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if i can just ask them here... that would be great and i prefer that cause this is like my second home.
but i would like to ask some knowledgable people a few questions about teh differences of ssri's comparred to non ssri's etc.
let me know if this is the spot to ask and i will fire away!
-------------------- "When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert "Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye." "Experience the liquid realm..." "The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann
Edited by agoutihead (03/24/06 09:28 AM)
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: anyone know of a message board that i can talk more in depth about anti deppressants on???? [Re: agoutihead]
#5433814 - 03/23/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Like most psychotropic drugs, antidepressants are usually referred to in a very broad sense. The logic behind this is relatively straightforward: Since we don't know how consciousness and the brain works (except for in a borad, or "gross" sense) it's difficult to understand how drugs which affect the brain work.
There are knowledgeable people in physical and mental well-being if you can get past the whole: "omfg antidepressants and chemicals don't affect your thinking they only cover up a problem.......take mushrooms instead".
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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agoutihead


Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 1,449
Last seen: 6 years, 7 days
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Re: anyone know of a message board that i can talk more in depth about anti deppressants on???? [Re: badchad]
#5434078 - 03/23/06 11:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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well this is for my gf.. she is the one on them.
she has done plenty of drugs when she was 16-18 and just started again recently with shrooms and acid because of me.
but i dont understand the difference between an ssri, a non ssri and the other one that is similar to ssri but different letters.
so is it really just a hit or miss with these drugs... i guess you can figure if an ssri isnt working good she should try a non-ssri?
shes on effexor by the way.
-------------------- "When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert "Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye." "Experience the liquid realm..." "The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: anyone know of a message board that i can talk more in depth about anti deppressants on???? [Re: agoutihead]
#5434168 - 03/23/06 11:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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In a basic sense, they all have a similar "endpoint", that is; they will increase levels of serotonin (5-HT) and norepinephrine (NE) within the brain.
Exactly how this is done, is where the differences lie. For instance, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI's) work as their name implies. They block the reuptake of serotonin after is is released, which results in increased 5-HT in the synapse.
Tricyclic antidepressants act in a more direct manner to release 5-HT and NE.
MAOIS (monoamine oxidase inhibitors) work by inhibiting monoamine oxidase. Monoamine oxidase is the enzyme which breaks down 5-Ht and NE (among other neurotransmitters). Thus, if the neurotransmitters cannot be broken down, they accumulate in the neuron and more is released.
That is a VERY BASIC description of the main classes of drugs. Within each class however, there are subtle differences among the drugs. However they are small and usually vary on a person-to-person basis.
In general, SSRI's have a lower side effect profile, and are safer than other antidepressants. Thus, they are a "first line" treatment option. Again, however there are subtle differences. Usually treatment begins with an SSRI, if the person doesn't like it, another SSRI is chosen. If that doesn't work, then treatment is changed to a different class of antidepressant.
Also, keep in mind that many of these drugs are being used to treat more than just depression (anxiety, etc.). Thus, symptoms effect drug selection as well. For instance, effexor is a somewhat "weird" drug in that it doesn't readily fit into the basic categories I described above. This isn't to say that it's bad, but I would assume there is a reason your physician prescribed it for her.
All in all it comes down to patient preference. All patients will respond to drugs different in terms of efficacy and side effects. In that regard antidepressants are "hit or miss".
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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agoutihead


Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 1,449
Last seen: 6 years, 7 days
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Re: anyone know of a message board that i can talk more in depth about anti deppressants on???? [Re: badchad]
#5437429 - 03/24/06 07:37 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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hey this is getting very interesting... i have a few questions, but just want to say thanks for taking the time to type all of this.
first off... i know what seretonin(5-HT)is, but what is norepinephrine (NE)?
what is a synapse?
so is it better to release 5-HT and NE with Tricyclic antidepressants or block it with an SSRI?
What is a Tricyclic antidepressants ??
am i catching on correctly?
please bear with me as this is all very new to me.
also a little history on my gf...
she was kind of a depressed kid cause of a shitty up bringing, but her dad died unexpectantly a couple of years ago which threw her into a manic depressive state. her mom is very ill and its hard to say how long she has. of course there are big financial burdens that weigh down on her and are hard for her to cope with.
we just had a baby a year and a half ago.
her dr. she went to for the baby stuff just started giving her effexor with out really having her go to a psychatrist.
it started working pretty quick, our sex life was amazing again, she seemed much more energetic and just happier.
it worked for about a month or two and then tappered off. she boosted her meds from 75mg to 150 mg and that really didnt do anything.
she has since just gone back to 75mg because the 150 was giving her too many bad mood swings.
i have heard alot of good results about welbutrin.
thanks!
-------------------- "When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert "Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye." "Experience the liquid realm..." "The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann
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agoutihead


Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 1,449
Last seen: 6 years, 7 days
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Re: anyone know of a message board that i can talk more in depth about anti deppressants on???? [Re: agoutihead]
#5437433 - 03/24/06 07:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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should she consider stacking her SSRI (effexor) with an MAOI??? ... or possibly stacking an MAOI with another type of antidepressant?
also, SSRI stands for selective seretonin reuptake inhibitors - does this mean it allows more seretonin to "hang out or chill" in a certain part of the brain instead of it fizziling out into the rest of the brain/body? am i understand this correctly?
-------------------- "When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert "Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye." "Experience the liquid realm..." "The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann
Edited by agoutihead (03/24/06 08:01 AM)
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AliveAgain
Stranger
Registered: 10/22/05
Posts: 4
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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Re: anyone know of a message board that i can talk more in depth about anti deppressants on???? [Re: agoutihead]
#5437797 - 03/24/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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hey so, this is a bit long. i hope it helps. i don't really know why i've written so much. good luck to you both.
try these: (links follow)
crazymeds (knowledgable and funny site, any prescribed drug under the sun described *by people who know their stuff through taking them*
crazyboards.org (busy message board, was linked to crazymeds before they had one of those falling out things. Does a hard line on obeying docs and staying on meds which isn't always appropriate, but has loads of really helpful people and good answers to med-related questions)
theicarusproject.net (holistic approaches to craziness. alternative therapies discussed. weighted towards bipolar but all welcome. if you think there's more to wellness than being sedated, and that perhaps it's not that odd to be depressed by this messed up world...)
message boards icarus <http://theicarusproject.net/community/discussionboards/> and (bigger, busier and pro-med) <www.crazyboards.org>
general (establishment) info links here <http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.bipolar.html> more here <http://bipolar.about.com/>
www.crazymeds.org for med info
wait, i just noticed that you said she was "thrown into a manic depressive state". Manic depression= another name for bipolar, so definitely get her to check out the icarus project.
Basically bipolar goes like this.
dadeeda, everything is normal everything is great! it's wonderful! here's this idea, here's that, let's move to another country, let's start doing xyz, colours are sharper, people sexier. nothing's moving fast enough why can't you keep up i hate everything let's do this do that get out of my way no of course i don't need to sleep don't come near me. it's still and it's dark. i can't stop crying. i don't feel anything. i can't even cry anymore. all i can do is sleep. this will never end. i can't focus. can't read. don't have any thoughts.
In medical jargon that's the classic pattern of stable mood, mania/hypomania increasing, sometimes moves into mixed state (angry mania), crash into depression, slowly come out of. Rinse and repeat.
*Stable mood times can last for years.*
THere's a lot of info out there so get reading. here's some terms explained, maybe that'll help.
Mania, depression, or mixed state? mania = euphoria, loads of energy, creative, flights of ideas, fast talking, - bit like being coked up and very happy about it - little/no need for sleep - that's how it works for me anyway.
hypomania is mini-mania. mania can spin off into psychosis (not for everyone - don't fret!) hypomania is more manageable. Type 2 bipolar - hypomania instead of mania. Type 1, mania.
depression= the pits. etc. hibernation.
mixed state = the energy of mania with the hate of depression. spiralling flights of ideas all of which are telling you how shitty you and your life are. Being very angry.
If she is manic depressive (that's the same thing as bipolar) antidepressants on their own could have sent her into manic/mixed. THe increased energy, sex drive, etc progressign into mood swings (irritability? tearful? like pms from hell? self hate? major impatience? anger issues?) sounds like the mixed state bit.
Psychiatrists will normally prescribe antidepressants and mood stabilisers together. This is because various things can trigger mania, like lack of sleep, change in routine, changes in brain chemicals. THe mood stabiliser, well, stabilises. Typical mood stablisers: lithium Sodium valproate (variety of brand names - epilim is one) lamictal, which i don't know much about, a new thing which is anti-dep and stabiliser together i think
Look on the icarus project for some discussions of the pros and cons of stayign on lithium or one of its cronies. Psychiatrists will insist on lifelong medication with this one. THere are arguments for and against. In any case when things are shitty (aka 'being in crisis') it's a good idea to take whatever will make it bearable, and research it yourself when things are better. Being unmedicated seems to work best when the person has had a good couple of years of medicated stability under their belt, and knows exactly what they can and can't handle without meds.
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you don't take maois and ssris together.
don't think maois are prescribed much nowadays anyway, at least not until everything else has been tried.
effexor works like an ssri at small doses (like the 75 she's on) and then hits other spots - norephenine (sp?) and dopamine as the dosage increases. wellbutrin is in the same class as effexor.
tryclics are maois, i think. they're oldschool in any case.
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I don't know what country you're in, but if she can get a referral to a psychiatrist, that'd be a good plan.
More important is lifestyle things. Talking therapies. excercise balanced diet sleep sunlight things that she enjoys doing i assume you're doing your bit in bringing up baby - time to destress and get uninterrupted sleep can work wonders. time to chill out and read/do whatever/watch a tv program all the way through /see friends.
massage/aromatherapy/reiki/meditation/look and keep looking.
wish you well
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agoutihead


Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 1,449
Last seen: 6 years, 7 days
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Re: anyone know of a message board that i can talk more in depth about anti deppressants on???? [Re: AliveAgain]
#5437843 - 03/24/06 10:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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well first off, thank you and dont ever feel bad for typing too much! i need to obsorbe as much knowledge as possible!
so her best bet is to possibly try and get on another anti depress like welbutrin and just have an added mood stabilizer? - she does cry almost daily about something. its sad.
im pretty sure my grandmother is on lithium... she has severe mental illness which has been passed on to all of her children and all of her grandchildren. were a pretty wacky family. my aunts (i have 4 of them) are all on anti meds of some kind. i know it really afffects something long term in your body... but i cant remember what.
having to take something that you might have to take the rest of your life is scary because of the damage prolonged use of drugs (good and bad)can do to your body.
i definitally know that my mind is warped... and was so before i took psychedelics... now my mind is warped 1000x more.. but for the better. i do not feel any need to be on any time of anti dep other than weed. 
i will look into those websites this weekend that you posted since im at work.
i wonder why they are cutting out MAOI'S.... clearly they are a major player in brain chemistry. and i barely know anything about them.
-------------------- "When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert "Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye." "Experience the liquid realm..." "The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann
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agoutihead


Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 1,449
Last seen: 6 years, 7 days
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Re: anyone know of a message board that i can talk more in depth about anti deppressants on???? [Re: agoutihead]
#5446878 - 03/27/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i talked with my gf this weekend about our last mushroom trips and her being on an ssri
she told me that it was not as strong as it normally was... i was just thinking it was all mental to her... but clearly there is an actual chemical problem.
we each took an 1/8th the last time.
generally when on an ssri.. how much do you need to take to feel the full effects of the correct dosage when not on an ssri?
i.e. does she need to double it?
thats alot of boom booms to ingest!
-------------------- "When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert "Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye." "Experience the liquid realm..." "The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann
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