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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Think about this next time you shop at Walmart.
    #5429050 - 03/22/06 10:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

New Witness Confirms Existence of Chinese Concentration Camp, Says Organs Removed from Live Prisoners



A former employee of Liaoning Provincial Thrombosis Hospital of Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine told The Epoch Times during a recent interview that the Sujiatun Concentration Camp in China was actually a part of a hospital. The concentration camp has engaged in taking organs from Falun Gong practitioners when they were still alive and selling the organs. Since 2001, the concentration camp has secretly detained approximately 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners, none of whom have been able to leave the camp alive. The hospital removed many kidneys, livers, and corneas from the practitioners. After the organ removal, the practitioners were thrown into an incinerator, which was converted from a boiler. Their ashes were dumped together with burned charcoal.


Organs from Three Quarters of the 6,000 People Were Removed
Those whose organs were removed were in various states of health. Because many of the victims were illegally detained, there was neither an arrest warrant nor identification as to who these people actually were. Often after their organs were removed, nobody claimed the bodies. Sometimes their bodies were picked up by crooks who pretended to be their family members.

About three-quarters of the 6,000 people died after their hearts, kidneys, corneas, or skin was removed; their bodies were then burned. This witness, whose family member participated in the removal of Falun Gong practitioners' organs, said that approximately 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners remain in the hospital. She was afraid that the authorities would kill all of them to destroy evidence.

The Liaoning Provincial Thrombosis Hospital of Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine is located at 49 Xuesong Road, Sujiatun, Shenyang City, Liaoning Province, China. It was the first hospital in China to specialize in the heart, the brain, and surrounding blood vessels. The hospital is composed of several organizations, including the Liaoning Traditional Chinese Medicine College Teaching Hospital and the Shenyang Thrombosis Treatment Center.


Concentration Camp Details
The hospital site is 21,087 square meters, with 17,564 square meters of building area. It employs 460 people in 24 departments and 20 specialized offices. Information from the Chinese government shows that the hospital was established in December 1988, and was formerly named the Shenyang Research Institute of Thrombosis and Liaoning Province Thrombosis Treatment Center of Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine. In June 1998, it was renamed China Traditional Medicine Thrombosis Treatment Center.

The Chinese Business Morning View said in a story on July 4, 2004, that a farm worker died of abnormal causes in Sujiatun, Shenyang and was later cremated. The death certificate was provided by the Chinese Medicine Thrombosis Treatment Center in Sujiatun. The news caused a stir in China.



A copy of the death certificate. (The Epoch Times Archives Photo)Below is the transcript of an Epoch Times reporter's interview with the former staff member of the Liaoning Provincial Thrombosis Hospital of Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine in Sujiantun, Shenyang City. Questions were posed by the reporter and answered by the staff member being interviewed.

Epoch Times: Did the hospital's medical staff inside the concentration camp know about this?

Answer: This hospital has a small number of officials and some doctors involved secretively in the operation of organ harvesting. Some other staff in the hospital knew about this, but this is absolutely a taboo [to talk about]. They all are afraid of being killed or courting trouble, so they all avoid the issue. Only those highly trusted doctors could be chosen to be the surgeons for organ harvesting operations.

ET: Were Falun Gong practitioners alive when their organs were harvested? Did their families know about this?

Answer: Falun Gong practitioners who were imprisoned there came mostly from Dabei Prison, Masanjia Labor Camp, and other prisons in Shenyang, or they were Falun Gong practitioners arrested in parks or residential homes. Because they refused to denounce Falun Gong, they were arrested without formal warrants, and their families did not know their situation. Many did not even have their names [recorded]. In addition, since the Chinese authority exercises a policy of "not being responsible" for killing Falun Gong practitioners, the death of Falun Gong practitioners is not a very big issue for prisons. The Chinese Communist Party persecutes Falun Gong, [but] these medical personnel were told Falun Gong practitioners were facing death because they killed people, or they were sentenced to death because of crimes, or they had become insane from practicing Falun Gong.

Those Falun Gong practitioners whose organs were harvested came from various places.

Organs harvested from live bodies are worth far more than organs taken from dead bodies. Many Falun Gong practitioners were still alive when their organs were taken. After their organs were cut out, some of these people were thrown directly into the crematorium to be burnt, thus leaving no evidence. For some others, after their organs were stolen, the doctor sewed up the wound and asked the family or family representative to give a signature for cremation. Family members did not know at all that the dead had their organs taken out.

Furthermore, there were some healthy Falun Gong practitioners in prisons in other areas who were injected?without their knowledge?with psychoactive drugs that made their minds confused. They then were transferred to Sujiantun concentration camp to suffer further torture, till in the end their organs were harvested and their bodies were cremated in secret.

Among the Falun Gong practitioners whose organs were harvested, some were weak and some were healthy. Since most of them were illegally arrested, there were no arrest warrants or identification cards. After their organs were taken out while they were still alive, no one came to claim their bodies; or [sometimes] people using fake identities claimed their bodies.

None of these people have come out [of the concentration camp] alive; three-quarters of these 6,000 people have died, having their hearts, kidneys, retinas, and skins harvested and their bodies disposed of. I think now about 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners are still in this hospital, and I am afraid now that the authority will destroy all evidence and kill them.

Question: How did you know these things? Were you yourself a doctor involved in organ harvesting?

Answer: I worked at the Liaoning Provincial Thrombosis Hospital of Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine, Shenyang. This is exactly where this concentration camp is located. One of my family members was involved in the operation to harvest Falun Gong practitioners' organs. This has brought great pain to our family.

Question: Please tell us what you knew about.

Answer: From 2001, our hospital started to detain Falun Gong practitioners. At the beginning, these people were detained in the single-storey houses in the back yard of the hospital. Later, the hospital authorities demolished the single-storey houses, and it was unknown where in the hospital the Falun Gong practitioners were transferred. Many staff of the hospital discussed in private that these Falun Gong practitioners had been secretly transferred to the underground chambers of the hospital. According to some people working inside the hospital, the hospital has a huge system of secret underground chambers.

At the time when we went to work there, the person in charge of logistics and purchasing in the hospital said that the quantity of disposable sterile gloves used for operations and daily supplies that the hospital authorities asked to be purchased had increased dramatically. The logistics people estimated based on the scale of purchases at that time that there were at least 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners detained in this hospital.

These Falun Gong practitioners were not detained in the 4-story building under the in-patient department and administration at the front of the hospital, in order to keep the hospital staff from seeing them at all. We only occasionally saw Falun Gong practitioners being sent on a mobile intensive care bed to the first floor for physical examinations. These people were very weak. For the majority of the Falun Gong practitioners, nobody knew where they were being secretly kept. While they still did not know where these people were kept, some staff inquired to the hospital authorities about why so much food and so many sterile gloves and daily supplies were purchased. The hospital authorities said, "You only need to do your job well. There is no need for you to ask any other questions."

Starting in 2001, a family member of mine participated in organ-harvesting operations. My family member tried to keep me from knowing about this at the beginning. The hospital authorities selected doctors they trust in different aspects to perform the secretive operations. After a period of time, I found that my family member was in a lot of pain, often had nightmares, and appeared panic-stricken. After repeated inquiries, this family member told me the truth. The leader of the hospital had asked my family member to participate in the organ harvesting operations on Falun Gong practitioners as early as 2001. It was 2003 when my family member confessed. A few years after, my family member felt so much pain from participating in this incident that it was impossible to continue with the evildoing. My family member decided to go abroad to get away from this matter.

My family member also told me: "you don't understand my suffering; those Falun Gong practitioners were alive. It might be easier for me if they were dead, but they were alive."

Question: Were there any other doctors from the hospital taking part in the operations of cutting out Falun Gong practitioners' organs?

Answer: I know there were some. All these things have been carried out secretly. Many doctors at our hospital involved were practicum doctors transferred from other hospitals. Because the government does not want to be responsible for Falun Gong practitioners' bodies and lives, their lives are treated as garbage by the regime, and their bodies were used in experiments by new doctors doing their practitcums.

Many doctors came and left the hospital because they suffered a lot after having been involved in these kinds of things. They either requested to be transferred to other places, or changed their names. Some might have been killed to eliminate the evidence, their identity files were taken out from the hospital's filing system, or their names were changed. Nobody knows where the doctors have gone.

The hospital staff all know that the rear part of the hospital is forbidden. It is always watched. The staff avoids talking about the place.

Question: It is said the hospital is equipped with an incinerator. The person whose organs were removed will be burned when he or she is still alive. Is that true?

Answer: The employees in our hospital call this place "the incinerator." Actually, it is a boiler room. Some poor farmers from nearby places were hired to work in the boiler room. They were penniless when they first came here. But they could scrape up some watches, finger rings, necklaces, and so on. The amount is not small. It is said by the employees in the hospital these jewelry and watches were collected from the Falun Gong practitioners whose organs had been removed when they were about to be thrown in the boiler to be burned. It is also said by the employees in the hospital, some were still alive when being thrown into the boiler.

Question: Do they get injection of anesthetic when in surgery?

Answer: Yes. There is a cap to the anesthetic quantity used in mainland China's hospitals. Generally, the supply of anesthetic was determined according to the accommodation of the hospital. To the public, the number of patients in our care appears to be very small, and publicly reported number of surgical procedures performed is quite low. But the equipment and articles used in surgery are abundant. Because the amount of anesthetic is limited, these secret surgeries could not use the normal anesthetic doses. In order to save anesthetic, they economized on the anesthetic used in surgeries on these Falun Gong practitioners. The amount of anesthetic used was very small. However, many whose organs were removed were still alive. You can imagine the pain suffered by the Falun Gong practitioners whose organs were removed.

Question: Are there any survivors among the 6,000 people detained since 2001?

Answer: Nobody has come out alive. The number of them gets smaller and smaller. The Falun Gong practitioners detained at Sujiatun are fewer now than before. But I believe that the sin of removing the organs of the Falun Gong practitioners is still continuing.

Question: Where are these organs usually sold to? Do the higher authorities in the government know about this?

Answer: They are mainly sold to Thailand, but I believe they are also sold to other regions of the world. Nowadays, there are many patients in China who need human skin, corneas, and kidneys for organ transplant surgeries. Many patients have to wait in line to purchase organs. Currently, a kidney can be sold up to the price of 30,000 to 100,000 U.S. dollars. The profit from selling organs is simply too great. The people who benefit from this are not only the top leaders of hospitals and the officials of the Chinese Communist Party's Heath Department. This is a crime present across the entire nation. People ranging from government officials to doctors to organ sellers are all involved in this and are profiting greatly.

Question: Why did they target Falun Gong practitioners as the source of organs?

Answer: Because relatives of many Falun Gong practitioners don't even know that their family members were arrested. So if the Falun Gong practitioners are killed, there will be no one to come and claim their dead bodies.

Question: Why did you want to expose this? This may bring great danger to you.

Answer: I know that there are many Falun Gong practitioners who are currently detained at the hospital. I would like to expose this to the international community, so those who are not yet killed can be saved. Also, I would like to expose this as an atonement for my family.

I am not a Falun Gong practitioner. But as a former staff member of the hospital, I have the responsibility to expose the truth, and let the world to save those Falun Gong practitioners who are still alive. Organs of some Falun Gong practitioners are still living on patients' bodies. I would like to call on all society to pay attention to this issue and stop this shocking crime.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5429507 - 03/22/06 01:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know what this has to do with Walmart, but that interview was one of the most horrendous things I have ever heard. I am disgusted that someone could actually do somehting like this.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5429516 - 03/22/06 01:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Source please...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5429518 - 03/22/06 01:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe I missed it, but what is Walmart's role in this?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: daimyo]
    #5429552 - 03/22/06 01:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I don't get the WallyWorld connection either....:shrug:


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Don't be bogged down by your past
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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5429570 - 03/22/06 01:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think he thinks WalMart is the only store that sells goods from china....


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: DieCommie]
    #5430131 - 03/22/06 04:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well, Walmart is, by far, the leading cause of our trade deficit with China. I think the connotation here is that buying from Walmart helps China, which is true to a certain degree.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Twirling]
    #5430227 - 03/22/06 04:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I can feel the patriotism oozing out of my bosom knowing America's fine capitalist corporations love catering to and doing business with China. Go capitalism. Go Chinese capitalism.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: bukkake]
    #5430392 - 03/22/06 05:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Is there any nation that you feel is worthy of your patronage? Any Iraq war monger is out. China is out. Israel is out. I hope Burma and the Sudan and Chad are out. France oppresses Muslims and Jews. I could go on.

So, who's OK? Japan? No no no, they helped the US. Such a conundrum.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Twirling]
    #5430400 - 03/22/06 05:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

So there was no trade deficit with china before wal-mart? I am uneducated in this manner....


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5430419 - 03/22/06 05:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Is there any nation that you feel is worthy of your patronage?



I don't think so. The new phenomenon of government has been very bloody and oppressive. And I refuse to choose a happy medium and praise the US because China is far more domestically insane.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: bukkake]
    #5430427 - 03/22/06 05:14 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

New phenomenon of government?


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Redstorm]
    #5430497 - 03/22/06 05:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Humans have existed for 100-200 thousand years. Government, as far as we know, a few thousand years.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: bukkake]
    #5430558 - 03/22/06 05:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

There was no violence or oppression before government was created?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: bukkake]
    #5430559 - 03/22/06 05:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You dont think hunter/gatherer tribes had a governing council to set the rules and customs of the tribe?


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: DieCommie]
    #5430805 - 03/22/06 06:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Both scarce. Violence, obviously, evolved from somewhere or something.


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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Twirling]
    #5430829 - 03/22/06 06:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Twirling said:
Well, Walmart is, by far, the leading cause of our trade deficit with China. I think the connotation here is that buying from Walmart helps China, which is true to a certain degree.




I thouhgt it was the 250 billion in pirated materials and then the import vs export issue?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: bukkake]
    #5430993 - 03/22/06 07:31 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Both scarce.


I think the opposite. Both violence and oppression were greater thousands of years ago. There was enormous violence and oppression committed against the non-sapien homo species. So much so that we killed off virtually all hominids. Hunter/Gatherer tribes also lived in a state of perpetual warfare against each other, fighting for access to the best hunting grounds, territory etc.

Also, when you live a smaller group than we do, you are more stuck to the role you were born with. They didnt have the luxury of letting the women play hunter, the men play stay at home dad, or the youth studying esoteric things. Much more oppressive than modern society imo.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Twirling]
    #5431521 - 03/22/06 09:32 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Twirling said:
Well, Walmart is, by far, the leading cause of our trade deficit with China. I think the connotation here is that buying from Walmart helps China, which is true to a certain degree.




thanks for connecting the dots.

Quote:

Source please...



http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-3-17/39405.html

Chinese Torture of Falun Gong members. Woman was beaten with electrical batons so badly it completely severed her breast.



My Connotation with Walmart and China is basically tounge and cheek.


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OfflineTurn
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5431645 - 03/22/06 10:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What the fuck is with those Chinease. Why are the so oppressive, I don't get em.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Turn]
    #5431675 - 03/22/06 10:19 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

They're just keeping the masses in line so they can take over the world.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: DieCommie]
    #5431755 - 03/22/06 10:42 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
There was enormous violence and oppression committed against the non-sapien homo species. So much so that we killed off virtually all hominids. Hunter/Gatherer tribes also lived in a state of perpetual warfare against each other, fighting for access to the best hunting grounds, territory etc.



Sorry, but we do not have any archaeological evidence of such widespread warfare between homonid species. More likely, we simply outcompeted them for resources by being more adaptable to the changing environment.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Silversoul]
    #5431844 - 03/22/06 11:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

dont be sorry. I buy it.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: DieCommie]
    #5433864 - 03/23/06 12:45 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Hunter/Gatherer tribes also lived in a state of perpetual warfare against each other, fighting for access to the best hunting grounds, territory etc.


Nah. The last thing you need in a hunter gatherer society is all the men wounded from fighting constantly. Wounded men can't hunt and if you can't hunt your group starves.

They would do absolutely everything they could possibly do to avoid conflict. The other point is they was so much territory for each group that there would be no need to fight. When they met other groups the most beneficial thing they could do would be to swap hunting/gathering techniques.

Problems arose when food production kicked in around 5000 years ago. That was when you had food being hoarded and the rich decided they'd need an army to protect their wealth.

They didnt have the luxury of letting the women play hunter

I don't think people in those days were too concerned with political correctness. They just lived their lives and probably treated each other with a lot more respect and consideration than you get today. Everyone in the group was known to everyone else and they worked for each other. Probably a helluva safer than the average city.


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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Alex213]
    #5433969 - 03/23/06 01:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

you are wrong.


here is a link

http://www2.umaine.edu/climatechange/Research/projects/NewGuinea.html



One potentially important finding to emerge from this project is the overlooked influence of war on hunter-gatherer society and culture. The need to protect against attack by day and by night and to defend access to subsistence resources had strong effects on settlement patterns, social group formation and complexity, and ceremonial and ritual culture.

Hunter-gatherer scholarship has largely overlooked the importance of war, partly because of long-standing assumptions that warfare is a relatively recent emergence in human history and that hunter-gatherers lead a peaceful life. There is increasing evidence, however, that these assumptions are misplaced and that New Guinea?s foragers may more accurately represent the hunter-gatherer past. Recent primate research finds that chimpanzees practice a form of lethal aggression against neighbors that has striking similarities to ambush in human society. This suggests that organized deadly violence may antedate the human-chimpanzee split, some 5 to 7 million years ago, and therefore may have characterized the whole of human prehistory. This conclusion is corroborated by historical research on reputedly peaceful hunter-gatherer groups such as the !Kung, Inuit, and Australian Aborigines, which suggests that war was considerably more prevalent among these peoples than previously supposed


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5434005 - 03/23/06 01:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

When I read something like this, I get so upset I just kind of shut down. It is just so terrible that even imagining it happening makes me sick.  :sad:

Y'all ever get so upset over what's going on out there, and feel like you are so small against atrocity that you just kind of want to bury your head in the sand and live in a tiny isolated world?


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: DieCommie]
    #5435082 - 03/23/06 06:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Also, when you live a smaller group than we do, you are more stuck to the role you were born with. They didnt have the luxury of letting the women play hunter, the men play stay at home dad, or the youth studying esoteric things. Much more oppressive than modern society imo.



When you also live in smaller groups, there is very little division of labor or inequality, with leadership centered around the band. Roles are obtained through personal attributes.

Oppression, individualism, and social inequality were spawned from agragarian societies. Political institutions and the hierarchies seen today formed from those very societies, not hunter gatherering societies.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: bukkake]
    #5435391 - 03/23/06 08:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
When you also live in smaller groups, there is very little division of labor or inequality, with leadership centered around the band. Roles are obtained through personal attributes.

Oppression, individualism, and social inequality were spawned from agragarian societies. Political institutions and the hierarchies seen today formed from those very societies, not hunter gatherering societies.




And pray tell how do we get these mythical and utopian "hunter-gatherer" groups to arise now that the Earth has 6 billion people on it?


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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5435467 - 03/23/06 08:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And pray tell how do we get these mythical and utopian "hunter-gatherer" groups



Mythical and utopian to whom? Do you have a spontaneous urge to kill, plunder, and sack your nextdoor neighbor? Or do you have a desire to live, free, with outside interference?

Quote:

to arise now that the Earth has 6 billion people on it?



Far tricker part. If authority upon a few non-resistant minority by a vast majority were "human nature", then there would be no opposition to Chinese authoritarianism or the United States' current and past outrageous assaults on civil liberties. Would there be?


Edited by bukkake (03/23/06 09:03 PM)


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5435472 - 03/23/06 08:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

bukkake said:
When you also live in smaller groups, there is very little division of labor or inequality, with leadership centered around the band. Roles are obtained through personal attributes.

Oppression, individualism, and social inequality were spawned from agragarian societies. Political institutions and the hierarchies seen today formed from those very societies, not hunter gatherering societies.




And pray tell how do we get these mythical and utopian "hunter-gatherer" groups to arise now that the Earth has 6 billion people on it?





Yes, and when food is scarce, you can eat the weeker members of the band.


BTW, does Walmart sell human organs?


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Luddite]
    #5436589 - 03/24/06 01:28 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This is some Nazi experiment shit on Jews and prisoners of war. That's fucked up.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5436966 - 03/24/06 03:54 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

you are wrong

No, you are wrong.

From your own link:

Hunter-gatherer scholarship has largely overlooked the importance of war, partly because of long-standing assumptions that warfare is a relatively recent emergence in human history and that hunter-gatherers lead a peaceful life.


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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: bukkake]
    #5437128 - 03/24/06 06:02 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

And pray tell how do we get these mythical and utopian "hunter-gatherer" groups




Mythical and utopian to whom? Do you have a spontaneous urge to kill, plunder, and sack your nextdoor neighbor? Or do you have a desire to live, free, with outside interference?




The history of individuals and of societies is replete with examples of violence and selfishness. I have come to the conclusion that these urges are natural.

I'll admit that I myself sometimes fantasize about engaging in violence when I am angry. If somebody pisses me off I think about hitting them. Am I "unnatural"?

Quote:

Randalflagg said:
to arise now that the Earth has 6 billion people on it?

Quote:

bukkake said:
Far tricker part. If authority upon a few non-resistant minority by a vast majority were "human nature", then there would be no opposition to Chinese authoritarianism or the United States' current and past outrageous assaults on civil liberties. Would there be?







Human nature is much more complex than you give it credit for. You think because there are a few dissenters that it completely negates an entire concept? Governments exist. Societies exist. Violence exists. Selfishness exists. Greed exists. Some people want complete freedom and others are willing to subjugate themselves to something in order to feel security. Some people are empathetic and generous and others are stingy and only out for themselves. Human behavior cannot always be predicted or quantified. Hence why utopian theories are always bullshit.


Edited by RandalFlagg (03/24/06 06:08 AM)


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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5437163 - 03/24/06 06:44 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Selfishness exists. Greed exists

So does love and altruism tho. I think the 2 million years of hunter gatherer lifestyle has had more influence than the last 5000 years of warfare.


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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Alex213]
    #5437306 - 03/24/06 08:35 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Hunter Gatherer's still had periodic skirmishes for resources, mates, territory, etc. It's all natural baby. Except now there are more humans and power is concentrated leading to far more powerful militaries in some countries than others.


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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: downforpot]
    #5437337 - 03/24/06 08:56 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Looks like you can't have a primative utopia without cannibalism. Scientific evidence here
--> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/300/5617/227a


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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
    #5437720 - 03/24/06 11:47 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The history of individuals and of societies is replete with examples of violence and selfishness. I have come to the conclusion that these urges are natural.

I'll admit that I myself sometimes fantasize about engaging in violence when I am angry. If somebody pisses me off I think about hitting them. Am I "unnatural"?



I acknowledge the history of violence among humans, but I will not cite them as "natural." If humans had a spontaneous urge to kill or maim, there would be chaos everywhere and the rate of violent crimes would not be the leading minority offense. I also acknowledge history for what it is when I take my opinion on this into account - We know very, very little about history. So it is naive to believe utopia or equality cannot exist based on a few thousand years of human history. Most have actually concluded inequality and violence are fostered depending on one's environment.

You are just as unnatural as the Buddhists who believe in nonviolence. Always take ecology into account. If you refuse to, everything I'm saying is going to sound like bullshit or as if I have lost my mind.

Quote:

Human nature is much more complex than you give it credit for. You think because there are a few dissenters that it completely negates an entire concept? Governments exist. Societies exist. Violence exists. Selfishness exists. Greed exists. Some people want complete freedom and others are willing to subjugate themselves to something in order to feel security. Some people are empathetic and generous and others are stingy and only out for themselves. Human behavior cannot always be predicted or quantified. Hence why utopian theories are always bullshit.



Human nature is very complex. History is also very complex. Citing a very recent example, the USA Patriot Act and the NSA's wire-tapping, people are not very interested in being preyed, spied, and their own personal space intruded upon...unless you frighten and terrorize them and promise them security. But all governments do this and that is why I will never agree government is something naturally created or necessary, if that is what you are hinting at. Everything you stated existed is fostered. This is obvious when you study culture to culture and society to society. I believe utopia existed for hundreds of thousands of years before civilization, you may not. The reason I believe this is because if warfare and greed were as prevalent today as they were then, we would not have progressed thus far. We would gleefully wiped each other off the face of the planet instead.


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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Alex213]
    #5437880 - 03/24/06 12:58 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
you are wrong

No, you are wrong.

From your own link:

Hunter-gatherer scholarship has largely overlooked the importance of war, partly because of long-standing assumptions that warfare is a relatively recent emergence in human history and that hunter-gatherers lead a peaceful life.





you didn't understand that particiular part. Here lets us look at the setence again.



[Hunter-gatherer scholarship] has largely overlooked the importance of war, partly because of [long-standing assumptions] that warfare is a relatively recent emergence in human history and that hunter-gatherers lead a peaceful life.




They are saying the scholars who study these peoples have long over looked the prevalence of war because of the long standing assumption of war being fairly new to humans arsenal of tricks.




did you even read the whole post you dumb fuck?

no, you didn't,This conclusion is corroborated by historical research on reputedly peaceful hunter-gatherer groups such as the !Kung, Inuit, and Australian Aborigines, which suggests that war was considerably more prevalent among these peoples than previously supposed.

also from my post.

here i will post all the pertinent information form that post.

[Hunter-gatherer scholarship] has largely overlooked the importance of war, partly because of [long-standing assumptions] that warfare is a relatively recent emergence in human history and that hunter-gatherers lead a peaceful life. There is increasing evidence, however, that these assumptions are misplaced and that New Guinea?s foragers may more accurately represent the hunter-gatherer past. Recent primate research finds that chimpanzees practice a form of lethal aggression against neighbors that has striking similarities to ambush in human society. This suggests that organized deadly violence may antedate the human-chimpanzee split, some 5 to 7 million years ago, and therefore may have characterized the whole of human prehistory. This conclusion is corroborated by historical research on reputedly peaceful hunter-gatherer groups such as the !Kung, Inuit, and Australian Aborigines, which suggests that war was considerably more prevalent among these peoples than previously supposed





also stfu.


Edited by mack_tasticlies (03/24/06 01:05 PM)


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5437945 - 03/24/06 01:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

did you even read the whole post you dumb fuck?


Are you upset? Or do you still think you are talking to your mother?

Now calm down and look at it again:

Hunter-gatherer scholarship] has largely overlooked the importance of war, partly because of [long-standing assumptions] that warfare is a relatively recent emergence in human history and that hunter-gatherers lead a peaceful life.

So even in your own link it states clearly that the bulk of scholarshop has concluded hunter gatherer societies were peaceful. This one guy disagrees. That doesn't prove anything. It's one guys opinion which goes in the face of the bulk of the scholarship.

In short, everything you said is ass backwards and there is no candy for that where I come from.


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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Alex213]
    #5437967 - 03/24/06 01:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It's one guys opinion which goes in the face of the bulk of the scholarship, as you put it is uncorobrated and assumptive, ther is no evidence to suggest these assumptions are tru, that is why they are assumptions.

So yeah, the new recent findings that are scinteific in nature and not ssumptions do fly in the face of the largely assumptive and incorrect sholarship, who by the way overlooked the whole idea becasue they assumed war was new to man.

it is becoming clear to me, your reading comprehehnsion is not present.


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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5437972 - 03/24/06 01:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

There is increasing evidence, however, that these assumptions are misplaced and that New Guinea?s foragers may more accurately represent the hunter-gatherer past. Recent primate research finds that chimpanzees practice a form of lethal aggression against neighbors that has striking similarities to ambush in human society.

from the excerpt I posted.

not assumptions but increasing evidence.


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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5437974 - 03/24/06 01:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This conclusion is corroborated by historical research on reputedly peaceful hunter-gatherer groups such as the !Kung, Inuit, and Australian Aborigines, which suggests that war was considerably more prevalent among these peoples than previously supposed


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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5437975 - 03/24/06 01:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This suggests that organized deadly violence may antedate the human-chimpanzee split, some 5 to 7 million years ago, and therefore may have characterized the whole of human prehistory.


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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5437991 - 03/24/06 01:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Banned -- AGAIN -- for flaming. You're building up quite a few demerit points. I suggest you cut it out, as the next ban will be quite lengthy.



Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5437997 - 03/24/06 01:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah but that's one guys opinion. And opinions are like assholes.

Here's the latest opinion on this:

Humans evolved to be peaceful, cooperative and social animals, not the predators modern mythology would have us believe, says an U.S. anthropologist.



Robert W. Sussman, of Washington University in St. Louis, goes against the prevailing view and argues that primates, including early humans, evolved not as hunters but as prey of many predators, including wild dogs and cats, hyenas, eagles and crocodiles.
"Our intelligence, cooperation and many other features we have as modern humans developed from our attempts to out-smart the predator," says Sussman, the author of, "Man the Hunted: Primates, Predators and Human Evolution."

The idea of "Man the Hunter" is the generally accepted paradigm of human evolution, says Sussman.

"It developed from a basic Judeo-Christian ideology of man being inherently evil, aggressive and a natural killer," Sussman told the American Association for the Advancement of Science meeting in St. Louis. "In fact, when you really examine the fossil and living non-human primate evidence, that is just not the case."

http://www.physorg.com/news10987.html


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Alex213]
    #5439237 - 03/24/06 08:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

We're animals and animals kill when needed. Whether it's for resources, mates, territory, etc. Except it seems that humans are the first to actually kill and torture out of enjoyment. I am proud to be a human.


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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: downforpot]
    #5440413 - 03/25/06 09:41 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

im a little annoyed that this wasnt directly related to walmart. after reading about 4-5 paragraphs, i finally realized (stupid me) that you were trying to tie a link between Wal-Mart, and these horrible actions, because both involve China.

What a poor stretch, this story is specific enough I don't see any reason why you would change the focus of it, with the title of this thread. I think thats exactly what made this entire thread into a free-for all discussion about torture, capitalism, wal-mart, and the origins of mankind and the hunter/gatherer evolutionary timeframe.

aside from that, you should be just as angry at american people that shop at walmart (because they cant afford to buy elsewhere at 50-100% more), and you should be just as mad at western medicine, which honestly is one of the most brutal practices that has been introduced to mankind (obviously, it has its benefits, when patients are willing).


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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