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Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Turn]
    #5431675 - 03/22/06 10:19 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

They're just keeping the masses in line so they can take over the world.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: DieCommie]
    #5431755 - 03/22/06 10:42 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
There was enormous violence and oppression committed against the non-sapien homo species. So much so that we killed off virtually all hominids. Hunter/Gatherer tribes also lived in a state of perpetual warfare against each other, fighting for access to the best hunting grounds, territory etc.



Sorry, but we do not have any archaeological evidence of such widespread warfare between homonid species. More likely, we simply outcompeted them for resources by being more adaptable to the changing environment.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Silversoul]
    #5431844 - 03/22/06 11:05 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

dont be sorry. I buy it.


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: DieCommie]
    #5433864 - 03/23/06 12:45 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Hunter/Gatherer tribes also lived in a state of perpetual warfare against each other, fighting for access to the best hunting grounds, territory etc.


Nah. The last thing you need in a hunter gatherer society is all the men wounded from fighting constantly. Wounded men can't hunt and if you can't hunt your group starves.

They would do absolutely everything they could possibly do to avoid conflict. The other point is they was so much territory for each group that there would be no need to fight. When they met other groups the most beneficial thing they could do would be to swap hunting/gathering techniques.

Problems arose when food production kicked in around 5000 years ago. That was when you had food being hoarded and the rich decided they'd need an army to protect their wealth.

They didnt have the luxury of letting the women play hunter

I don't think people in those days were too concerned with political correctness. They just lived their lives and probably treated each other with a lot more respect and consideration than you get today. Everyone in the group was known to everyone else and they worked for each other. Probably a helluva safer than the average city.


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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Registered: 02/25/06
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Alex213]
    #5433969 - 03/23/06 01:07 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

you are wrong.


here is a link

http://www2.umaine.edu/climatechange/Research/projects/NewGuinea.html



One potentially important finding to emerge from this project is the overlooked influence of war on hunter-gatherer society and culture. The need to protect against attack by day and by night and to defend access to subsistence resources had strong effects on settlement patterns, social group formation and complexity, and ceremonial and ritual culture.

Hunter-gatherer scholarship has largely overlooked the importance of war, partly because of long-standing assumptions that warfare is a relatively recent emergence in human history and that hunter-gatherers lead a peaceful life. There is increasing evidence, however, that these assumptions are misplaced and that New Guinea?s foragers may more accurately represent the hunter-gatherer past. Recent primate research finds that chimpanzees practice a form of lethal aggression against neighbors that has striking similarities to ambush in human society. This suggests that organized deadly violence may antedate the human-chimpanzee split, some 5 to 7 million years ago, and therefore may have characterized the whole of human prehistory. This conclusion is corroborated by historical research on reputedly peaceful hunter-gatherer groups such as the !Kung, Inuit, and Australian Aborigines, which suggests that war was considerably more prevalent among these peoples than previously supposed


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Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
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Registered: 12/21/00
Posts: 3,322
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5434005 - 03/23/06 01:12 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

When I read something like this, I get so upset I just kind of shut down. It is just so terrible that even imagining it happening makes me sick.  :sad:

Y'all ever get so upset over what's going on out there, and feel like you are so small against atrocity that you just kind of want to bury your head in the sand and live in a tiny isolated world?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Invisiblebukkake
LEFT WING NUT
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,750
Loc: Classified
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: DieCommie]
    #5435082 - 03/23/06 06:25 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Also, when you live a smaller group than we do, you are more stuck to the role you were born with. They didnt have the luxury of letting the women play hunter, the men play stay at home dad, or the youth studying esoteric things. Much more oppressive than modern society imo.



When you also live in smaller groups, there is very little division of labor or inequality, with leadership centered around the band. Roles are obtained through personal attributes.

Oppression, individualism, and social inequality were spawned from agragarian societies. Political institutions and the hierarchies seen today formed from those very societies, not hunter gatherering societies.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: bukkake]
    #5435391 - 03/23/06 08:02 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
When you also live in smaller groups, there is very little division of labor or inequality, with leadership centered around the band. Roles are obtained through personal attributes.

Oppression, individualism, and social inequality were spawned from agragarian societies. Political institutions and the hierarchies seen today formed from those very societies, not hunter gatherering societies.




And pray tell how do we get these mythical and utopian "hunter-gatherer" groups to arise now that the Earth has 6 billion people on it?


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Invisiblebukkake
LEFT WING NUT
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Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,750
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5435467 - 03/23/06 08:38 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And pray tell how do we get these mythical and utopian "hunter-gatherer" groups



Mythical and utopian to whom? Do you have a spontaneous urge to kill, plunder, and sack your nextdoor neighbor? Or do you have a desire to live, free, with outside interference?

Quote:

to arise now that the Earth has 6 billion people on it?



Far tricker part. If authority upon a few non-resistant minority by a vast majority were "human nature", then there would be no opposition to Chinese authoritarianism or the United States' current and past outrageous assaults on civil liberties. Would there be?


Edited by bukkake (03/23/06 09:03 PM)


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InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
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Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5435472 - 03/23/06 08:39 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

bukkake said:
When you also live in smaller groups, there is very little division of labor or inequality, with leadership centered around the band. Roles are obtained through personal attributes.

Oppression, individualism, and social inequality were spawned from agragarian societies. Political institutions and the hierarchies seen today formed from those very societies, not hunter gatherering societies.




And pray tell how do we get these mythical and utopian "hunter-gatherer" groups to arise now that the Earth has 6 billion people on it?





Yes, and when food is scarce, you can eat the weeker members of the band.


BTW, does Walmart sell human organs?


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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Luddite]
    #5436589 - 03/24/06 01:28 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

This is some Nazi experiment shit on Jews and prisoners of war. That's fucked up.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5436966 - 03/24/06 03:54 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

you are wrong

No, you are wrong.

From your own link:

Hunter-gatherer scholarship has largely overlooked the importance of war, partly because of long-standing assumptions that warfare is a relatively recent emergence in human history and that hunter-gatherers lead a peaceful life.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: bukkake]
    #5437128 - 03/24/06 06:02 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

And pray tell how do we get these mythical and utopian "hunter-gatherer" groups




Mythical and utopian to whom? Do you have a spontaneous urge to kill, plunder, and sack your nextdoor neighbor? Or do you have a desire to live, free, with outside interference?




The history of individuals and of societies is replete with examples of violence and selfishness. I have come to the conclusion that these urges are natural.

I'll admit that I myself sometimes fantasize about engaging in violence when I am angry. If somebody pisses me off I think about hitting them. Am I "unnatural"?

Quote:

Randalflagg said:
to arise now that the Earth has 6 billion people on it?

Quote:

bukkake said:
Far tricker part. If authority upon a few non-resistant minority by a vast majority were "human nature", then there would be no opposition to Chinese authoritarianism or the United States' current and past outrageous assaults on civil liberties. Would there be?







Human nature is much more complex than you give it credit for. You think because there are a few dissenters that it completely negates an entire concept? Governments exist. Societies exist. Violence exists. Selfishness exists. Greed exists. Some people want complete freedom and others are willing to subjugate themselves to something in order to feel security. Some people are empathetic and generous and others are stingy and only out for themselves. Human behavior cannot always be predicted or quantified. Hence why utopian theories are always bullshit.


Edited by RandalFlagg (03/24/06 06:08 AM)


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5437163 - 03/24/06 06:44 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Selfishness exists. Greed exists

So does love and altruism tho. I think the 2 million years of hunter gatherer lifestyle has had more influence than the last 5000 years of warfare.


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Invisibledownforpot
Stranger
Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Alex213]
    #5437306 - 03/24/06 08:35 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Hunter Gatherer's still had periodic skirmishes for resources, mates, territory, etc. It's all natural baby. Except now there are more humans and power is concentrated leading to far more powerful militaries in some countries than others.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleRogues_Pierre
Stranger
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Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 99
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: downforpot]
    #5437337 - 03/24/06 08:56 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Looks like you can't have a primative utopia without cannibalism. Scientific evidence here
--> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/300/5617/227a


--------------------


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Invisiblebukkake
LEFT WING NUT
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Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,750
Loc: Classified
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Rogues_Pierre]
    #5437720 - 03/24/06 11:47 AM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The history of individuals and of societies is replete with examples of violence and selfishness. I have come to the conclusion that these urges are natural.

I'll admit that I myself sometimes fantasize about engaging in violence when I am angry. If somebody pisses me off I think about hitting them. Am I "unnatural"?



I acknowledge the history of violence among humans, but I will not cite them as "natural." If humans had a spontaneous urge to kill or maim, there would be chaos everywhere and the rate of violent crimes would not be the leading minority offense. I also acknowledge history for what it is when I take my opinion on this into account - We know very, very little about history. So it is naive to believe utopia or equality cannot exist based on a few thousand years of human history. Most have actually concluded inequality and violence are fostered depending on one's environment.

You are just as unnatural as the Buddhists who believe in nonviolence. Always take ecology into account. If you refuse to, everything I'm saying is going to sound like bullshit or as if I have lost my mind.

Quote:

Human nature is much more complex than you give it credit for. You think because there are a few dissenters that it completely negates an entire concept? Governments exist. Societies exist. Violence exists. Selfishness exists. Greed exists. Some people want complete freedom and others are willing to subjugate themselves to something in order to feel security. Some people are empathetic and generous and others are stingy and only out for themselves. Human behavior cannot always be predicted or quantified. Hence why utopian theories are always bullshit.



Human nature is very complex. History is also very complex. Citing a very recent example, the USA Patriot Act and the NSA's wire-tapping, people are not very interested in being preyed, spied, and their own personal space intruded upon...unless you frighten and terrorize them and promise them security. But all governments do this and that is why I will never agree government is something naturally created or necessary, if that is what you are hinting at. Everything you stated existed is fostered. This is obvious when you study culture to culture and society to society. I believe utopia existed for hundreds of thousands of years before civilization, you may not. The reason I believe this is because if warfare and greed were as prevalent today as they were then, we would not have progressed thus far. We would gleefully wiped each other off the face of the planet instead.


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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Alex213]
    #5437880 - 03/24/06 12:58 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
you are wrong

No, you are wrong.

From your own link:

Hunter-gatherer scholarship has largely overlooked the importance of war, partly because of long-standing assumptions that warfare is a relatively recent emergence in human history and that hunter-gatherers lead a peaceful life.





you didn't understand that particiular part. Here lets us look at the setence again.



[Hunter-gatherer scholarship] has largely overlooked the importance of war, partly because of [long-standing assumptions] that warfare is a relatively recent emergence in human history and that hunter-gatherers lead a peaceful life.




They are saying the scholars who study these peoples have long over looked the prevalence of war because of the long standing assumption of war being fairly new to humans arsenal of tricks.




did you even read the whole post you dumb fuck?

no, you didn't,This conclusion is corroborated by historical research on reputedly peaceful hunter-gatherer groups such as the !Kung, Inuit, and Australian Aborigines, which suggests that war was considerably more prevalent among these peoples than previously supposed.

also from my post.

here i will post all the pertinent information form that post.

[Hunter-gatherer scholarship] has largely overlooked the importance of war, partly because of [long-standing assumptions] that warfare is a relatively recent emergence in human history and that hunter-gatherers lead a peaceful life. There is increasing evidence, however, that these assumptions are misplaced and that New Guinea?s foragers may more accurately represent the hunter-gatherer past. Recent primate research finds that chimpanzees practice a form of lethal aggression against neighbors that has striking similarities to ambush in human society. This suggests that organized deadly violence may antedate the human-chimpanzee split, some 5 to 7 million years ago, and therefore may have characterized the whole of human prehistory. This conclusion is corroborated by historical research on reputedly peaceful hunter-gatherer groups such as the !Kung, Inuit, and Australian Aborigines, which suggests that war was considerably more prevalent among these peoples than previously supposed





also stfu.


Edited by mack_tasticlies (03/24/06 01:05 PM)


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5437945 - 03/24/06 01:20 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

did you even read the whole post you dumb fuck?


Are you upset? Or do you still think you are talking to your mother?

Now calm down and look at it again:

Hunter-gatherer scholarship] has largely overlooked the importance of war, partly because of [long-standing assumptions] that warfare is a relatively recent emergence in human history and that hunter-gatherers lead a peaceful life.

So even in your own link it states clearly that the bulk of scholarshop has concluded hunter gatherer societies were peaceful. This one guy disagrees. That doesn't prove anything. It's one guys opinion which goes in the face of the bulk of the scholarship.

In short, everything you said is ass backwards and there is no candy for that where I come from.


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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: Think about this next time you shop at Walmart. [Re: Alex213]
    #5437967 - 03/24/06 01:28 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

It's one guys opinion which goes in the face of the bulk of the scholarship, as you put it is uncorobrated and assumptive, ther is no evidence to suggest these assumptions are tru, that is why they are assumptions.

So yeah, the new recent findings that are scinteific in nature and not ssumptions do fly in the face of the largely assumptive and incorrect sholarship, who by the way overlooked the whole idea becasue they assumed war was new to man.

it is becoming clear to me, your reading comprehehnsion is not present.


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