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OfflineAsanteA
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EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's * 3
    #542674 - 02/06/02 05:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hi Everybody: here's my first post, this one dealing with PSYCHEDELICS & BENZOS. You probably think: what's so important? Well: hang on!

Let's first get familliar with the major players of this piece...

PSYCHEDELICS: Now, that's basically Da Good Stuf such as Lysergide (LSD) but I mean Psilocybin in particular. Anyone bored yet?
BENZODIAZEPINES: These are a family of "Minor Tranquilizers" who all share the same sedative effect when given in equivalent dosages you can calculate using info from the Internet. To name the major players & their equivalence:

1mg Flunitrazepam (Rohypnol) = 10mg Diazepam (Valium) = 20mg Oxazepam

Now I hear you yawning without even having taken one of those! Since I'd like you to bear with me I'll come to business right away!

Benzo's inhibit the effects of Major Psychedelics (Like Lysergide, but not THC) to an extent determined by dose. They do this so effectively that they are the #1 treatment against Bad Trips in European Emergency Medicine. They're so superior in this over Antipsychotics like Haloperidol that the latter's never given there.
(Which is PROOF that Psychedelic states in general ARE NOT Psychotic states!)
But besides stopping Trips off like nothing you've ever experiened there's another use for the combination, one that'll make quite some waves over here at the shroomery, for most trippers I can think of are bound to get very interested...

If you combine a certain dose of Mushrooms with a certain small dose of any Benzo, a Trip ensues which I have named: "BenzoTrip" or "Shielded Trip". This combination has it's pros & cons but will be just right for a lot of us.

When you take this Dual Combi, you're bound for a Trip...
But in coming up you'll find that you're not only very much at peace, but that most of those nasty somatics (body effects) are far less too. (if you had 'em..) And then... You're Tripping!
You'll notice you'll be calmer & more centered, which for most people means they can go much deeper into thought-patterns & the rich visuals that accompany them in most users. It's really way, WAY different & friendlier, which allows deeper immersion, and it's at least as muh fun as tripping straight. I found that a BenzoTrip not only can greatly boost your Personal/Spiritual growth: you're likely to wind up having a UNIFORMLY FUN TRIP, which would appeal to most people who'se postings I've seen here. It's a bit like 2CB but in a very Psilo kind of way...
The price to pay is the following: The "Miraculous Events" (U know?) occur less frequently which is to be expected since the entities described as GOD/DEVIL (or FANTASTIC/HORRIBLE) are two sides of one coin.

So what's the magic combination? This varies from person to person & you'll have to figure that one out yourself. I can however provide you with hints as to what could work for you, based on fearless self-experimentation.
Let's start with your mushroom. If you're into Psilocybe Cubensis you can roughly say that very good dried Cubes has ~12mg Psilocybin to a gram, while Cubes of average potency hang around 6mg/gram. (Based on good Dutch research) If both are taken together, these were the results from multiple self-experiments:

Psilocybin 10-20mg + 10mg Valium equiv. nearly completely PREVENTED the trip from happening. I was in a strange & way too mild "twilight zone" & Bonged up.

Psilocybin 10-15mg + 1.25-2.5mg Valium equiv. was just right: BENZOTRIP.

When I combined 30mg Psilocybin (a Whoopsie for me!) with 20mg Valium equiv. it came down hard on the trip but I retched & puked which was clearly Benzo.

If one were to double both amounts needed for a BenzoTrip (several times) you'd still be shielded to some extent but it'll be WAY stronger too. So don't decide you can now finally go macho on Shrooms 'cause thats ALWAYS a stupid thing to do.
Remember: "Less is More!"

After some heavy & uniformly pleasant experimenting (which yielded several MAJOR insights which a high dose easily could wash away by sheer overload)
I decided I really liked BenzoTrippin' but would absolutely not abandon unshielded Tripping, since I kind of missed the Miracles and even some of the scary shit.

When you'd like to initiate some-one but'd hate to send him/her off to the glorious depths of Hellraiser-Country... When you decide to trip somewhere else for a change & want to prevent possibly getting paranoid to the point of being truely fucked up... If you'd want to give Psilo-inspired Meditation for Personal Growth or really think something through & want to prevent Angels & Demons swarming all over the place... Ifyou're in the mood for a really nice trip with the guys & just want to laugh the hours away for old time's sake... Or if you just love experimenting, get familliar with the territory & are yearning for a "New" Trip...
You'd really should give this Combi a go !!!

Remember: Benzo's are slightly toxic and regular use likely leads to tolerance and dependence with possibly SEVERE WITHDRAWAL.
How to get 'em? Roofies abound in the US !
If you'd rather not go to a dealer I suggest you'd really ponder that question... Ponder, ponder & ponder it till Insomnia ensues & then visit your doc for it !!!


TAKE CARE OF YOUR BRAINS PEOPLE !!!



Well: That's It. If you have info to share on this combination, like to pat me on the back or scold me or whatever's relevant to this post: Follow up on it!
You'd might want to give



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OfflineKremlin
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Asante]
    #542705 - 02/06/02 06:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

thats definately an interesting thought, where did you find this info out? Do you have any links to some info on it?

Sounds like what a hippy flip (E + shrooms) is supposed to be like, ive never done that, but ive heard the E removes alot of the anxiety on coming up and makes it alot easier to handle.


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"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Kremlin]
    #542793 - 02/06/02 07:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

...Where did I find it out? Well: one of my hobbies (and I stress: hobbies) happens to be Pharmacology & Psychopharmacology in particular. Ofcourse Psychedelics are naturally highly interesting if one has ever truely Tripped. In short: lots & lots of reading, thinking & conneted the dots. I can't begin to tell you where all info came from. But rest assured: there's not only theory behind it: it has proven itself in myself & several friends. It's no Urban Legend!

Your "Hippy-flip" (MDMA or MDEA + Mushrooms) seems also called: MX-Missile.
I've never done that.
What me and X did do was take 3x 1/2 tab MDEA(~210mg), followed by 3x Mushrooms (total about 50mg Psilocybin) and after a walk at 7:00 AM we took these 3 microdots of LSD (~300mg) in about 2 hours time.
This whole event lasted 36 hours straight.

Just a stupid macho showing off?
Nay! I say this to illustrate my point: Normally the sum of these doses is quite enough to last me a year. Why did we take so much? Well: the experience was really different than usually. There was less work to do Psychologically, yet it was in one word Divine. It seems that the MDEA did the work before the trips: I'd rather have 3+5=8h of MDEA + Psilo then 5hrs of both at once, I think...

On all those high doses I read everywhere: It must be Immense to ride them 12 grams of Cubensis like some of those guys here, but if I attempted that I'd seriously doubt it would do me any good, if not plunge me into trouble. Nothanx!


SHULGIN SEZ 20mg PSILOCYBIN IS QUITE ENOUGH...


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Asante]
    #555991 - 02/19/02 06:45 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

IMPORTANT ADDITION:

You can roughly divide "Triptrouble" into 2 categories: Those caused by the stresses of the experience (the usual stuff) and the rarer problems that are basically caused by your brain trying to resolve inner conflicts & such. Examples:
Fearing you'll go insane usually is one of the former, while actually experiencing (psychological) Death/Birth/Egodeath & such are generally of the latter sort.

Both can give you a very difficult Trip, but only the latter has inherent Growth & Healing potential.
What's this got to do with a BenzoTrip?
Well: The first (shallow) category can be very much reduced or completely wiped out by the dose of Benzo thats right for you & the amount of Psilo you took. The second (Deep) category of difficulties isn't inhibited by Benzos at all, but the stress of going through them is generally reduced.
So: a BenzoTrip is generally much more friendly than a regular one, but retains virtually all of its Higher potential.

Please people: I'm YEARNING for feedback on this...!!!


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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Asante]
    #555998 - 02/19/02 07:07 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Im yearning to find out if this is true....

I rarely admit it, but I have had just a couple too many bad mushroom experiences for me to eagerly look forward to doing them again.. I am going to try this technique to see if perhaps I can calm my mind... something I have had trouble with in the past on high doeses of psylocybin. I will let you know what I find...

Also...Did u find many side affects such as a high decrease in energy, or anything of that sort?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Splat]
    #556066 - 02/19/02 10:14 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

If you eating shrooms to help search for answers as opposed to taking them just for the fun of tripping, my friend often finds lower doses much more constructive than high doses.



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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Splat]
    #556090 - 02/19/02 11:03 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

HI SPLAT!

Allthough there are differences in the mg/mg ratios one needs to get the optimum fx, most of my friends were in the stated range.
Since you'd have to take into account not only your personal sensitivity towards Psilocybin/Lysergide, but also of the particular Benzo you decide to take, you'd have to progress with caution. If you intend to add, say, the equiv. of 5mg Valium, FIRST TAKE THIS DOSE WITHOUT PSYCHEDELIX TO CHECK YOUR RESPONSE!!!

So: traumatized by the Shroom, 'eh? I really recommend you back off your dosage, since it may likely be too intense for you. Remember: Shroomery People are the ELITE: their dose average does not even COMPARE to what most people can stand. A tip: 1-3gr Cubies or 1-2gr of Liberty Caps is a good range. Shrooms back here in Holland are sold to contain 15mg PSB a portion. Shulgin (of Pihkal & Tihkal fame) doesn't reccommend doses above 20mg PSB, a dose Stamets laims to be "manageable for most". DO NOT LISTEN to the hidose guys: you're likely to be more sensitive, so quit taking Macho doses hoping to get more out of it. If even that's too much: Lower it again. Some need 10x less than some others!!!
My own findings: High doses give you like 1.000 insights a second whilst in the midst of a Mental Tornado, while low doses are generally more calm in both ways.
Do you really think 1.000 Insights/sec can be RETAINED, or do you figure like me that most'll be swept away by the onslaught?
Thus: GIVE LOW DOSES A GOOD CHANCE !!!

The amounts recommended are likely to contain 10-20mg PSB, Do The Math!!!
As for side fx: All I know agree that the rite dose-ratio greatly reduces mind/body stress of PSB/LSD while the Benzo (in modest doses) doesn't add significant side fx. The total picture that'll likely form is you tripping hard whilst being more calm, relaxed & centered than ever.

I'd really love your feedback man!! Just like to help...


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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Asante]
    #556724 - 02/19/02 10:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hmm...

Good advise.... I will let you know how my results turn out...


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OfflineSplat
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Splat]
    #559320 - 02/22/02 04:53 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hmmm....



temazepam would not qualify as benzo would it?


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Splat]
    #559371 - 02/22/02 08:12 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

HI SPLAT!

Temazepam not a Benzo?
SURE IT IS !!!
Temazepam is a "classical" Benzo usually prescribed for Insomnia. It's potency (dove into my files) is the same as that of Oxazepam, meaning that 20mg of it equals 10mg of Diazepam (=Valium).
If you follow my shroom-suggestion & end up between 10-20mg of Psilocybin, a dose of 5mg Temazepam may be just rite for you.
But then again: it may either be too hi or too lo for you. If you use Tem every day, it may easily be too little, because a Tolerance develops for Benzos meaning you need more over time to get the same effect. (please don't go over 20mg of Tem...)

Don't think that when you've found the rite dose you can avoid difficult experiences, because you can't: The most difficult ("Deep") stuff will come through anyway, as it should, so please don't think a BenzoTrip's an amusement-park ride. It'll just be generally easier, less stressful, simpler to accept & assimilate, but note I say GENERALLY. If you really think you're not up to dealing with the Deep, Painful stuff (95+% of Trippers aren't up to it) I suggest you keep your doses well below 20mg of Psilocybin equiv. since below that mark you can surely get into trouble too, but it's ALOT less likely to be the REALLY deep stuff, the kind that may give rise to Post-Trip troubles if dealt with wrongly.
If you're only into fun, you'd better avoid Tripping altogether, because even a BenzoTrip is DUAL in nature.
But: a series of BenzoTrips might well restore your confidence in Yourself & the Mushroom.

YET ANOTHER WARNING: Benzos can really F#CK UP YOUR LIFE if you use them for kicks or even in the daily dose your doc prescribes it. My recommendation is to not exceed the equiv. of 1x 10mg Valium a week. The kick's not worth it anyway:
a big drink containing 50ml of Alcohol is usually more fun than even the equivalent of 1-2 big Roofies & outlasts it too. Remember: BENZO = RISK.



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OfflineSplat
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Asante]
    #560227 - 02/22/02 11:47 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Good deal..

thanks for the info... I am really sick right now.. but when I get better I will give it a try... I have a Temazepam hookup... so I will let you kno how that goes... Till then.... Peas


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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Asante]
    #560262 - 02/23/02 12:27 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I've found that using valerian root extract in my mushroom tea works along the same lines as what you are describing. It doesn't really diminish the trip but it does help to relieve the tension and nervousness associated with intentionally exploring ones own head.


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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Asante]
    #560395 - 02/23/02 04:34 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I've done alot of the Benzo+shroom thing...I loved it....
Until I tried GHB+Shrooms...:)
It's much better IMO....The GHB and shrooms work together like magic..
I take a light dose before I eat the shrooms....Then as needed throughout the trip...It really lets you relax and take in everything you see and feel with such euphoria.....At the peak I'm completely in Awe.
This combo does not cancel each other out at all, it is by far my favorite drug combo ever!
My next experiment will be AMT + Valium...in hopes of taking the buzzy-speedy-icky edge off the AMT....
I'll keep you posted!


--------------------

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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: badjessejames]
    #560502 - 02/23/02 10:50 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Red1: Thanx: I'll give that a go... Valerian (Heliotrope) Root tea really is soothing stuff and IMO works better than any extract I've tried. (1/2-3tsp/cup) But the Big Thing of Shroom/LSD + Benzo is that these Psychedelix work mostly in the Limbic system o/t brain, which is governed by the inhibiting neurotransmitter GABA, which happens to be the in vivo precursor & amino analogue of GHB, and that the Benzos activate just that GABA.

So BadJesseJames:
I have no doubt that your Shroom-GHB combi can be very great !!! I'd love to try it if I weren't sceptical of GHB. You see: if you get your dose slightly wrong you'll be underimpressed or even overbombed+sick+unconscious. The GHB metabolizes into Succinic Acid, which really isn't a bad thing. But if that Succinic Acid subsequently metabolizes to Oxalic Acid (as i think it will) you're really into Deep Shit, even it is just a few % of your dose. This may lead to Oxalic Acid xtls forming in your kidneys, gradually building up to the point of decreased functioning of named organs. Will this Oxalic transformation happen in relevant amounts? We'll probably know in a decade or so, since the accumulation may be very gradual or only occur to an insignificant extent.
Add to this my suspicion of GHB's precursor GBL being slightly carcinogenic & you'll understand why I'm not convinced taking GHB is a good idea...
(But hey: they're just suspicions: I may be dead wrong here)

If I may ask: What dose of GHB + how much Shrooms works best for you? What's the main difference compared to "Straight" or Benzo-Tripping? What appeal did BenzoTripping have? What were the dose-ratios or ANYTHING RELEVANT of your BenzoTrips? I'm REALLY curious, BJJ!!!
Oh yeah: AMT + Benzo... It'll likely be less speedy but beware that AMT is more dangerous than Psilocybin & such: Be careful with dosing!
I think that N,N-Dimethyl-AMT will likely be one of the most SUPER Psychedelix there can possibly be, maybe much better as any Psychedelic we know. But how to slap those 2 Methyls on without a lab? Straight AMT (being amphetamine-like) I'll never try (really HATE Speedlike thingies), but I can understand its appeal!


Oh yeah, BTW: Vitamin B3 comes as Nicotinic Acid (avoid!) and Nicotinic Acid Amide (=Niacinamide) NAA works about in the same way as Benzos do, but much less strongly so. Ingesting about 300-700mg of it will give rise to a slightly tranquilized state in just MINUTES that feels really Benzo. It has yet to be tested with Shrooms, but I think it can probably take a little of the edge off a difficult experience & acts really quick. Experience with this, anybody?


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Offlinebadjessejames
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Asante]
    #561157 - 02/24/02 02:00 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

THe reason I tried the Benzo-trip in the first place was I have a high anxiety level .....but I love to trip.
Naturally..the anxiety level increased when I would trip so I tried to find the cure.
I would usually take 10mg Valium....and about 30-45 minutes later take an average of 3 grams of cubies...This worked and I still like to do this....but I have found that Benzos tend to lose thier magic after time.....After using valium for less than a week I feel less effects from the same dose.
A light dose of GHB 3 times a day is perfect for anxiety.... and as far as being "underimpressed or even overbombed+sick+unconscious" It does take awhile to find the dose that is right for you... no different than benzos.
Last... You might be right with your suspicions.. as far as BDO & GBL go, but there has been 30+ years of research on GHB... I doubt in 10 more years people will start falling over from Oxalic Acid xtls forming in thier kidneys.......can you back your suspicions upwith data.
TAKEN FROM: http://www.ceri.com/feature.htm
For the thirty years prior to 1990, the scientific papers on GHB were unanimous in reporting numerous beneficial physiological effects and the absence of long-term negative effects. In 1964, Laborit listed ?very low toxicity? as one of the ?principle elements? of the compound?s pharmacology. In a 1969 report on GHB?s anesthetic uses, Vickers referred to GHB as ?a truly nontoxic hypnotic? and repeatedly emphasized its ?lack of toxicity.? Vickers cited evidence that GHB demonstrates ?no toxic effects on the liver and kidney.?




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"My generation played a really mean trick on me. I thought we were all
goofing off together, but it turns out everybody else went and got rich
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: badjessejames]
    #561297 - 02/24/02 07:27 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Gee, BJJ:

That's alot of Valium to take with 3gr of Cubies... Were they strong or average quality? (usually the strong is 2x more potent in Psilocybin) I myself have seen the equiv. of 10mg Valium completely wipe out several Trips of 3gr "average" Cubies when taken together... Guess your dose was around 30-40mg PSB...

Daily use kills Benzos real quick, I agree... But I think 3x GHB a day really isn't that good an idea... Considering GHB's pharmacological profile this might addict you.
Is there stong tolerance going on?

About the Oxalic Acid thingie...
Primary alcohols generally are metabolized via the (always Carcinogenic) Aldehyde into the corresponding Carboxylic Acid. Carboxylic acids are generally oxidised in 2-Carbon jumps ideally resulting in CO2 + H2O. If I get my Toxicology right these 2 mechanisms will yield the metabolically "untouchable" Oxalic Acid as an end product. No hard specific data; just a strong suspicion.

As far as I know GHB's clinical application centered for the main part around it being a reasonably safe Anaesthetic for short-duration surgery. The only longterm administration I know of that looked well-researched was giving it to alcoholics, usually dosed under 10% of a recreational dose. Note that this likely means OA is likely <1/10 then too.
You might think I'm overcautious. But I'd say: After Thalidomide, after DES... Can one really be TOO careful about what one ingests? Another thing: Years ago 2 friends & me split a single large dose of GHB. We felt very little central effects, but all 3 agreed it gave a real "unhealthy" body feeling. Not quite nausea, generally a little but real "ill" kind of feeling... It didn't agree with us.

One more thing on GHB: 4-hydroxy-n-butyric acid naturally occurs in cell tissue and probably is essential. But if one ingests, say, 2gr of its sodiumsalt the concentrations take a big jump upwards, one that's "unnatural". Now all Psychotropics do this, but please remember anaesthetics are the HEAVIEST class of pharmaceuticals that's in regular use. If a syringefull of Heroin would do the trick that anaesthetics do, hammering folks with H would be standard practice as a means of anesthetizing. In fact: In putting big animals out the regular choice of drugs is opioids over anaesthetics. (stuff like Carfentanyl & Etorphine)
If I have to have surgery performed on me & local anaesthesia is an option, I'd rather hear them hammering & sawing away on my bones than to be put under Nitrous oxide for like an hour or two.
But hey: that's personal...

When you BenzoTripped: Did you find some aspects of the PSB-experience less pronounced than the rest? Is this different from GHB? What's the very best & very worst of a Benzo/GHB-Trip as compared to just shrooms? I really like to know...



"But doctor... A MILD CONCUSSION... How can it be?"
"Well, Wiccan Seeker: I guess he hasn't nearly punched you hard enough..."


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Offlinebadjessejames
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Asante]
    #561940 - 02/24/02 10:58 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The reason I like the GHB addition to shrooms rather than the benzos is the synergy just FEELS better...the body buzz..euphoria..etc..
It's just my opinion that benzos seem to take away from the trip. The benzos had me feeling kind of lethargic throughout the trip.....maybe next time I'll half the amount of diazepam.


"In putting big animals out the regular choice of drugs is opioids over anaesthetics."
What kind of animals...elephants? Ketamine is the most used anesthetic in horses,etc..

Taken from: http://www.anestesia.com.mx/articulo/keta.html
The group commented that anesthesia in the horse poses unique dangers to both handlers and the horse; that ketamine has proven to be the safest induction agent known and remains an important medication to the equine practitioner;


"If a syringefull of Heroin would do the trick that anaesthetics do, hammering folks with H would be standard practice as a means of anesthetizing.
This is not a well thought out statement.....especially if your trying to compare the side effects of heroin to GHB...



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InvisibleChampion des Champignons
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo' [Re: Asante]
    #562113 - 02/25/02 03:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

hmm, interesting. Do you know if there's a cross tolerance between benzos and alcohol?


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OfflineUnclePimpy
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: Asante]
    #563063 - 02/25/02 11:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

No, there is no cross tolerance to benzo's and alcohol. I've been doing the benzo/shroom mix for 2 years now...works great, just don't take Xanax bars (the footballs are cool) or they will cancel your trip out.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: EVERYBODY READ THIS !!! Psychedelics & Benzo's [Re: badjessejames]
    #563429 - 02/26/02 06:51 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

About crosstolerance between alc. + Benzos: Nope: 2 different mechanisms. Benzos work through GABA while Alc causes, among other things, the release of an anaesthetic Steroid.

BJJ: Horses, like (big) Cats, don't get opioids because it acts in them as a Stimulant. In several racehorses opioids were found as a means of making 'em run faster...

About that H-injection.. Well: wasn't clear enough...
The first open-heart surgery was performed by some SA doctor. It could only be performed because Carfentanyl became available, which is safer than most narcotics & anaesthetics alike. The race for a low-tox opioid is still on, and if a superior one is found nitrous, ket & all that other stuff would go out of the window. What I meant was: Ofcourse H isn't up to the challange... But the "anaesthetic o/t future" will likely be an opioid analogue.
All current ways of anaesthesia have a chance of killing the patient that usually falls between 1/5.000-1/100.000. I've read the statement that some scientists believe some new opioid may likely decimate this likelyness...
But if I had the choice of being put under by the somewhat unreliable GHB or the toxic H, I would without a doubt choose for GHB.


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