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 kungpow
SeasonedPsychonaut
 
Registered: 10/05/05
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 Coir? 
#5423761 - 03/20/06 10:32 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would like an answer to a question that has been popping up alot lately. The question is "Is coir too nutritious to use as a casing?" I am currently having an argument with a fellow shroomerite and there really isn't a definite answer either way. You can find evidence going in both directions by doing a search.
The first question that we need to look at while trying to figure this out is "Is coir nutritious at all?" I believe that it is. I have had some problems with overlay while using coir. So in my most recent grow I boiled it and strained it well to get most of it's nutritous properties out or at least what I thought was nutritious.
I think that this is just a question that needs to be answered. I know that I have seen coir used as a substrate, but the person i am in an argument says that vermiculite is used as a substrate too. So what is the deal?
Some insight into this question would be much appreciated.
~Peace Out
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Babo911
Pooper Scooper
Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 1,745
Loc: Arizona Bay
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 Re: Coir? [Re: kungpow]
#5423787 - 03/20/06 10:38 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have also heard both sides of the fence, persionally i am not sure who even came up with the idea of even using it. All the cases i have made have all been the same, i use verm and coir and it seems to work fine. Persionally again i don't think that coir by itself is the greatest nutrient but mixed with others seems to do the trick, that is my 2 cents 
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Ronhero on the Growery is me
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nuk1m
Dutchman
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Re: Coir? [Re: Babo911]
#5423814 - 03/20/06 10:42 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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I use coir with verm as a casing layer and get awesome pinsets everytime.
Personally I think overlay is only caused by waitin too long to intiate pinning. You want to intiate pinning the day after you see myc poppin up.
my 2cents
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jenerikcairet
cognitivelibertist
Registered: 02/17/06
Posts: 546
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Re: Coir? [Re: Babo911]
#5423847 - 03/20/06 10:48 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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the thing you need to look at for your argument is the application of the coir...are you arguing its use for casing or for substrate?
coir must have some nutritious value but thats not the goal of a casing layer anyways, in fact i would think more nutrients would just harbor more contams...im pretty sure this is your side of the argument...
anyways, i definitely believe it has some nutrients(isnt it really just a fiber material?) so i think taht using it alone as a casing layer should be avoided, makes more sense to use verm + coir casing mix...
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Yes, ordinary water. Laced with nothing more than a few spoons full of LSD- professor farsnworth
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onetime
onetime
Registered: 11/13/03
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Also it shouldnt matter if the coir has some nutraints becouse cubes do not require a caseing layer. Its just they are optimal I belive. And by defition One is not quite accurite calling anything with coir a caseing as it has some nutrition. But I would think that one would still be accurite if one was to say "use as a caseing" becouse even its not a casing it can be used as one.
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See?
Yes, with my own three eyes.
Depression, Misspells , wanting everying thing i cant have haveing nothing i want
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jenerikcairet
cognitivelibertist
Registered: 02/17/06
Posts: 546
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Re: Coir? [Re: onetime]
#5424048 - 03/20/06 11:27 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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What is "casing"?
"... and covered with a non-nutritive layer such as peat, vermiculite, coco coir or different mixtures of the previous with various additives."
from the casing FAQ... so according to that definition, coco coir can be used and still technically be called a casing layer. i think as long as your using a substance that can retain water and your not trying to use it as nutrition, then it would be a casing layer, regardless of whether or not there is nutritious potential. i mean, wouldnt almost all organic substances have some nutritious value at some level? anyways, it seems more that your argument is over semantics than coir... obviously people successfully use it as a casing layer(though all ive seen is coir mixed with verm)
i dont think this post clears things up at all so i will stop
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Yes, ordinary water. Laced with nothing more than a few spoons full of LSD- professor farsnworth
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Teon
Chemist/Self-AppointedFAQ Facist
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Re: Coir? [Re: kungpow]
#5424134 - 03/20/06 11:58 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't know... there is something disappointing about all of this and I don't mean the coir.
I find it disturbing that no matter how long I go away for things are still always the same when I return. Obviously, there has to be a better way for this information to flow, and I still stand by my previous sentiment that a more liberal (and more forcefully backed up) use of "UTFSE," while far from a solution, would certainly be a step in the right direction.
As far as the coir is concerned, there's nothing wrong with the coir, mixed with vermiculite for use as a casing or used to fluff out a bulk. Experience will demonstrate this to those who are knowledgeable and willing.
http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/23536
This got 5 stars. I'll bet that happened for a reason.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, have ever been, or will at any future time will be participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any legal statue; be it local, state, or federal law. All posts are works of fiction, and are intended for entertainment purposes only.
Don't just assume anything I or anyone else says is true. Test it for yourself. See if it's true.
Generate more useful information. The world is running desperately low on it.
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 cappa
Nerd
Registered: 02/12/06
Posts: 854
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Re: Coir? [Re: Teon]
#5424325 - 03/21/06 01:37 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've been using coco coir as part of my substrate and I have to say that I really like its texture. It seems an appropriate texture similar to shredded Hpoo. It also holds an amazing amount of moisture. It is a very fibrous material. I would guess it has a high celulose percentage.
During my searches of the site I ran across some older information that suggested something to the effect that a 'small amount of time released nutrients could be added to a casing'. Perhaps the idea was just a link to the realization that a casing releases water over time, so why not release nutes over time as well? This is speculation.
I'm not going to argue one way or the other, I haven't done the kind of testing required to figure it out(or any testing on this subject at all).
A few things that make sense:
Bacteria and fungi like to grow on nutritious material. I think it's not a far leap to say 'a material that contains no or very little nutritional ingredients is less prone to contamination.'
We definately want our casing layer to provide protection against contams. Does adding coir increase it's ability to do that? I dunno and that's the part I won't argue.
We also want our casing layers to provide moisture. Does coir help it do that? Oh yes, I would say it definately could. As said before it is very fibrous and it's structure would lend itself well to providing a resevoir and transport of water. Does it do it better than verm? I dunno, I won't argue that either.
Peronsally, I just want my casing layer to retain, and provide moisture to my substrate while providing a 'barrier' against contamination. That's all I want it to do.
To me nutritional concerns belong with the substrate itself.
If someone could show with a 'scientific as possible' test that coir helps the casing layer do those two things mentioned, or that flushes are larger or more healthy because of it(for some other reason), that would kick ass.
Maybe I'll give that a shot later. But until then, pH balanced
45%peat + 45%verm + 10%gypsum is good enough for me.
Then again I'm a noob and I'm probably making no mycosense.
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Their are 10 types of people. Those that understand binary, and those who don't.
~Cappa.
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Teon
Chemist/Self-AppointedFAQ Facist
Registered: 03/16/02
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Re: Coir? [Re: cappa]
#5424463 - 03/21/06 07:47 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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At the end of the day it's all about what works and what doesn't.
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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, have ever been, or will at any future time will be participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any legal statue; be it local, state, or federal law. All posts are works of fiction, and are intended for entertainment purposes only.
Don't just assume anything I or anyone else says is true. Test it for yourself. See if it's true.
Generate more useful information. The world is running desperately low on it.
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JustK
Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 348
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Re: Coir? [Re: Teon]
#5424677 - 03/21/06 10:47 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ever since I switched from coir to peat my pinsets are more prolific, more even, and I get more flushes out of each case as well.
Just my $.02
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Dont get caught dancing.
It's just, K.
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kungpow
SeasonedPsychonaut
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Loc: AaAaAaAa
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Re: Coir? [Re: JustK]
#5426450 - 03/21/06 05:49 PM (18 years, 30 days ago) |
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One piece of evidence that shows that it is such a great substrate is here.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post5347960
If you don't feel like reading. This is a thread created by agar where he mixed in a 25% wbs to coir. It colonized the coir and he got a great pinset off of it.
I'm not arguing that it CAN'T be used as a casing layer, but I believe that it is better as a substrate. I know that in the FAQ it has coir listed in the casing material, but I believe that it is some what nutritious. Like stated above I believe the only reason that coir works is that cubes dont NEED a casing a layer to fruit, and using coir in a casing mix sort of defeats the purpose of a casing layer.
When i get my martha going I am to do a test. But that won't be for a long time. I need a bigger house where I would have to room to put one that won't be noticed. When I do this test I am going to have 3 different casings: 1 with coir/verm, 1 with peat/verm/phbuffer, and the last without a casing layer. I am also going to use the same substrate depth, tub size, and strain of cubensis. I am even going to use the same lc. But for now I believe that I am going to switch to a peat based casing mixture and see the difference. It would be great if there is somebody with a martha that has the room to do this experiment and do it correctly. I believe that this is an age old question that needs to be answered.
~Peace Out
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Monotub #3 - check out my best grow to date!!!!
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agar
old hand
Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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Re: Coir? [Re: kungpow]
#5428678 - 03/22/06 03:53 AM (18 years, 30 days ago) |
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I tried various mixtures of coir/verm as CASING material.
Then, went back to a 50/50 peat/verm mixture (Ph buffered).
(simply because it does better for me)
However, I do add about 5% volume of coir, to the 50/50 mix.
I have found it has a CAC (casing inoculum)effect.
If you want to read about CAC & it's effect.
It is discussed on page 11/12 of the link below.
http://www.mushroomcouncil.org/docs/AgaricusMushroomGrowingFinal.pdf
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mungojerry
free as a bird
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Nappy Dub
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Re: Coir? [Re: agar]
#5428698 - 03/22/06 04:44 AM (18 years, 30 days ago) |
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i thought the casing layer was non nutritous
"What is "casing"?
The term "casing" as it is used in the mushroom cultivation is the method by which substrate (either PF style cakes or colonized grain or colonized compost or dung or straw...) is crumbled into suitable pieces if necessary, and covered with a non-nutritive layer such as peat, vermiculite, coco coir or different mixtures of the previous with various additives. "
http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/23435
Edited by mungojerry (03/22/06 04:45 AM)
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mushboy 
modboy
Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,777
Loc: where?
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coco works well. you just have to pin it at the right time.
this is when u do it to late..
 Notice that where the MYC has come through...no shrooms. but around the white is where they are popping up!
this is my new casing.. I expect much better pinset out of this one.
I use coco in my substrates also. it works great! IMO if coco was nutritious it would contam uber quickly.
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Hippie3
mycotopiate
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Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
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Re: Coir? [Re: kungpow]
#5428756 - 03/22/06 06:08 AM (18 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
kungpow said:
"Is coir too nutritious to use as a casing?"
no.
here are some examples of coir casings
that seemed to work ok
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Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
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FooMan
Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth 
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Re: Coir? [Re: Hippie3]
#5429260 - 03/22/06 09:49 AM (18 years, 30 days ago) |
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I think it's a matter of preference. Coir needs the right timing for frutitng, otherwise you get overlay IME. I've used coir in place of h/poo and gotten great 1 flush wonders.
  Coir as substrate. No casing layer.
I really don't care for coir as a casing layer though. I usually grow with double tubs and every time I use coir as a casing I get overlay and shitty pinsets. Jiffy Mix (peat based) has worked much better for me.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Coir? [Re: kungpow]
#5429358 - 03/22/06 10:27 AM (18 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
kungpow said:
I think that this is just a question that needs to be answered. I know that I have seen coir used as a substrate, but the person i am in an argument says that vermiculite is used as a substrate too. So what is the deal?
It was my understanding that vermiculite is used in substrate more to act as a medium and to make the substrate more airy, instead of actually providing much of any nutrients, but I dunno. 
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Roadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod
Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,674
Loc: Montana
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 Re: Coir? [Re: nuk1m]
#5429365 - 03/22/06 10:30 AM (18 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
nuk1m said:
I use coir with verm as a casing layer and get awesome pinsets everytime.
Personally I think overlay is only caused by waitin too long to intiate pinning. You want to intiate pinning the day after you see myc poppin up.
my 2cents
Verm and Coco Coir casings work great...
If you initiate pinning(put the f#cking casing in the fruiting chamber) as soon as the mycelium is just starting to come through the top of the casing layer.
If you dick the dog and wait too long...the casing layer will start to colonize too much.
Verm and Coco Coir casings aren't for lazy people!~
You have to stay on top of them and watch them like a Hawk.
tc
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Laterz, Road
Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!
Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Quote:
Roadkill said:
Verm and Coco Coir casings aren't for lazy people!~
You have to stay on top of them and watch them like a Hawk.
What's the benefit of using it as a casing layer, then, if it requires more careful observation? I'm new to this, and wondering what the big payoff of using it is, as compared to other possible casing layers that won't give the mycelium more nutrients.
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Roadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod
Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,674
Loc: Montana
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the benifit is that you have another option rather than just using a Peat based casing layer.
and another is that you don't have to mess around with lime or ph balance your casing layer.
tc
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Laterz, Road
Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!
Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.
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