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 MindsEye
AMT Fiend
Registered: 02/20/06
Posts: 645
Loc: cerebral cortex
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 Help I have clay instead of soil (veggie garden) 
#5403406 - 03/15/06 01:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm planting a small veggie garden and where I live our soil is clay, I tried last year to plant some plants in it but they all died
I went down a bought myself 400 lbs of compost cow manure, and a huge block of peat moss, somone told me that gypsum helps break down clay.
If this is the case how much do I apply? Or what is the best thing to do here?
Oh yeah Im growing organic so no chemicals please.
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llamabox
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Registered: 11/23/05
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Re: Help I have clay instead of soil (veggie garden) [Re: MindsEye]
#5403811 - 03/15/06 02:37 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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From Bachmons-
"Amending Clay Soil
Unfortunately, many of the other plants that we want to grow will either struggle or fail to survive in clay. So the next option is to make changes to the soil. If you opt to change and amend the soil, it is very important to understand that it will take lots and lots of the right type of amendments. Just adding a bag or two of sand or manure will only make the situation worse. The key to amending clay soil is to amend a large area and use enough coarse sand and coarse organic matter. Avoid trying to change a small area. Plants will have a difficult time making the transition to the surrounding clay soil, effectively limiting their growth to the amended area. And again, remember not to work clay soils while they are wet.
Two of the best amendments for clay soil are coarse sand and coarse organic matter. Coarse sand is also sometimes called builders' sand. The particles are relatively large, especially when compared to the finer sands used for sandboxes and such. The fine sands may actually make your problem worse. There are lots of types of organic matter available for gardening but not all of them will help improve clay soil. It needs to be coarse. Avoid fine-textured material such as peat moss or the packaged manures. If possible, find a source for a coarse compost or manure. Check with your city to see if they have a compost site for leaves and such.
How much? And how? First, calculate the area you are amending. Length x Width = Square Feet. Ideally, you should use equal parts of coarse sand and coarse organic matter to amend the soil, but extra sand can be used if necessary. You will need to cover the area with a 3-4 inch layer of organic matter and a 3-4 inch layer of sand. Bagged products won't be practical, since they usually hold a half cubic foot or less and would only cover a couple of square feet. Look for a source of bulk material. It will probably be measured by the cubic yard (27 cubic feet). The general rule of thumb is that one cubic yard will cover approximately 100 square feet with 3 inches of material. One hundred square feet may sound like a lot of space, but that is only a 10' by 10' area. A mature tree's roots can fill many times that area. First spread the organic matter over the area to be amended and work it into the top 6 inches of the soil. Next spread the sand over the clay/organic matter layer and mix it in. A tiller works well for this task. If you don't own one, they can be rented.
Check the pH and texture of any amended soil on a regular basis to see how it is changing. The organic matter will decay and seem to disappear. Since clay soils tend to be naturally alkaline and the decaying organic matter will slowly acidify, it will be important to have the pH tested to check its continued suitablity for the plants you are growing.
Soil Conditioners and Gypsum
There are several products called soil conditioners or clay conditioners. These products are new to the gardening market and sound promising. Most of them are only practical for small areas. The jury is still out on just how helpful these products are, but we encourage you to give them a try and let us know how they worked for you.
Gypsum often comes up when discussing clay soils. Gypsum is a mineral product similar to lime. Lime is calcium carbonate and gypsum is calcium sulfate. Billed as an amendment that will help improve soil drainage, it isn't clear whether it is very effective in our soils which are already very high in calcium. Gypsum has been used effectively in areas where the soil is very salty. The sulfate part of gypsum will also help to slightly acidify the soil."
From Suite101
"Gardening in clay
If you have clay soil like I do, you already know how poor drainage and the low air exchange qualities of clay affect plants. Clay soil is a gardener?s nightmare. Planting plants in heavy clay soil is just like standing them on cement; they?ll struggle for a while and then die. If you want your plants to thrive, you have to amend clay soil before you plant ? and after.
A regular program of adding compost and other organic material to your beds will help considerably. The more organic material you add to clay soil, the more porous it will become, and the better chance your plants will have.
You may also want to add coarse fragmented particles like perlite or vermiculite. I don't, because I have a lot of beds and perlite and vermiculite are expensive. Instead, I use coarse sand, based on the formula one part coarse sand and one part organic matter to one part of the existing soil.
If you choose this alternative, remember to use the right sand, coarse builder's sand, not fine or beach sand; adding fine sand can cause your soil to harden. Make sure that you wait to dig the sand and organic material in until your soil is dry; digging wet clay soil only turns it into a muddy, more tightly compacted mess. Being lazy, I like to rent a tiller to do the job, tilling the sand and organic material together into the soil to a depth of about 18 inches.
If your ground is severely water-retentive, and holds water for more than three hours after a rain, the best bet is to dig out and remove the clay soil, replacing it with a mixture of organic matter, coarse sand, and topsoil.
Amending your clay soil will also improve its pH level; clay soil is naturally acidic (which is one reason rhododendrons and azaleas flourish here). Adding lime will also raise the pH level of clay soil. We use dolomitic lime here because the ground tends to be deficient in magnesium, but if it's not, use calcitic lime. Both kinds should be added a season in advance since lime is absorbed slowly. For instance, add lime in the fall to a bed you plan to plant in spring. Normally, you only need to lime once every three years; testing the pH level of your soil each year will tell you how the lime is doing."
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MindsEye
AMT Fiend
Registered: 02/20/06
Posts: 645
Loc: cerebral cortex
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Re: Help I have clay instead of soil (veggie garden) [Re: llamabox]
#5403988 - 03/15/06 03:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok Im headed out to get a ph tester, just a quick thought, would it work if I dug down lets say 2 feet and hauled the clay off and filled the hole with compost, peat, and sand?
Just to give you a perspective on how bad this clay is, last yeat I planted morning glory on my back fence, it shrivled and died, most people cant get rid of this plant, its almost a weed.
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Easy Poo Cake Tek
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 Kerr
Who else would I be
Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1,611
Loc: My roots in the Koots
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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Re: Help I have clay instead of soil (veggie garden) [Re: llamabox]
#5406082 - 03/15/06 09:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for all that info  I am in the same boat as well with clay soils, this helped to clear up things 
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"Easy going and organic thoughts bent on self experimentation and knowledge and growth for the betterment of self and those around us"
-Playdo the philosophiser
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Psilopleix
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Registered: 11/03/03
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Loc: aridzone1
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Help I have clay instead of soil (veggie garden) [Re: MindsEye]
#5406897 - 03/16/06 01:00 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Instead of amending, battling, and struggling with clay soil, work around it. Building a raised bed is the best and easiest way to garden on clay.
Its very easy to do and well worth your time and effort. I really insist you go this route.
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indica
Registered: 08/17/05
Posts: 18,905
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Re: Help I have clay instead of soil (veggie garden) [Re: Psilopleix]
#5407031 - 03/16/06 02:43 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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I didnt bother reading that huge post
try some Gypsum Clay-breaker.
It's a sack of stuff you mix into the clay that naturally breaks up clay (made for this purpose) so that you can work manure/fertilisers/top soil into it a lot easier.
our dope crop plot was originally all clay, so we got gypsum and spent 1 months working the soil over until eventually it became absolutely perfect with a steady ph. of 6.8
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llamabox
Myco/Ethnoresearcher
Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 564
Loc: Third moon of the Indole ...
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Re: Help I have clay instead of soil (veggie garden) [Re: indica]
#5407861 - 03/16/06 11:24 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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From above
"Gypsum often comes up when discussing clay soils. Gypsum is a mineral product similar to lime. Lime is calcium carbonate and gypsum is calcium sulfate. Billed as an amendment that will help improve soil drainage, it isn't clear whether it is very effective in B.C. canada soils which are already very high in calcium. Gypsum has been used effectively in areas where the soil is very salty. The sulfate part of gypsum will also help to slightly acidify the soil."
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Kerr
Who else would I be
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Posts: 1,611
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Re: Help I have clay instead of soil (veggie garden) [Re: Psilopleix]
#5408210 - 03/16/06 12:52 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Psilopleix said:
Instead of amending, battling, and struggling with clay soil, work around it. Building a raised bed is the best and easiest way to garden on clay.
Its very easy to do and well worth your time and effort. I really insist you go this route.
I would but then if you think about it, you are essentially working with a pot then, the clay is like concrete, it needs to be ammended, especially since I plan on using this site for a while to come
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"Easy going and organic thoughts bent on self experimentation and knowledge and growth for the betterment of self and those around us"
-Playdo the philosophiser
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rod
Ψ
Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 3,727
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Re: Help I have clay instead of soil (veggie garden) [Re: MindsEye]
#5408263 - 03/16/06 01:01 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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This stuff Nitron A35 is something a friend and I, use in his clay
veg garden, helps break the clay down.
100% organic and nontoxic, Nitron A-35 acts as a catalyst to unlock available organic elements for balanced soil ecology. Great for clay or hardpan soils.
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Psilopleix
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Registered: 11/03/03
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Re: Help I have clay instead of soil (veggie garden) [Re: Kerr]
#5419699 - 03/19/06 06:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I would but then if you think about it, you are essentially working with a pot then, the clay is like concrete, it needs to be ammended, especially since I plan on using this site for a while to come
Your definitely right, that clay needs to be amended. You can't avoid putting some organic material into dense clay, no chemical will substitute this. The more organics you put in, the better off you'll be. But its sometimes very hard to get the drainage many plants require, from just tilling compost into the soil. The worst problem with clay is puddling, and a raised bed is a great solution. Also consider gardening on hills, that is another option if your working with a large area.
But really, clay can be nice to work with, considering it contains many trace minerals and holds water better than loam and sand. I use 75% compost and 25% clay... and my plants love it!
Goodluck!
-psilo
  
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Kerr
Who else would I be
Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1,611
Loc: My roots in the Koots
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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Re: Help I have clay instead of soil (veggie garden) [Re: Psilopleix]
#5420322 - 03/19/06 08:56 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Good points my friend, the soil around here has a bit of sand, so I have decent drainage, just not great water retention.
I am lucky in one aspect at least, I am gardening on a hill. I was actually up in my garden today and was able to finally move some dirt. Winter move over, spring is here 
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"Easy going and organic thoughts bent on self experimentation and knowledge and growth for the betterment of self and those around us"
-Playdo the philosophiser
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