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Offlinenonick
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america and government IDs
    #5419665 - 03/19/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

for whatever reason (probably because the police budget increased a lot since 9 11), they are really cracking down on checking IDs around here (NJ) try to buy a blunt--you have to show your state issued ID (drivers lisence). try to get into an r-rated movie--be sure to bring your papers! want to buy alcohol? you better have ID or you will probably be asked to leave the store immeditaely--even if you tell them you just left it in the car and will get it in a minute.

so, next time you go out, don't forget your papers!

(get used to that message. itll be on TV and such soon enough)


this post was inspired because last week a kid i know lost his drivers lisence. so he went and filed a report--as you are supposed to do. instead of being given a new lisence immediately, the state of new jersey gave him a temporary ID. they said that they couldnt get him a new lisence right away because they had to give it a week to investigate if it was stolen or anything. (what that has to do with giving a new lisence out, i have NO idea) so anyways, we went to 3, count em, 3 liquor stores and not one would accept his state issued temporary ID! just think about how rediculous this situation is. someone who is over 21 years old is inable to purchase alcohol because he lost his government ID card! pure filth....


Edited by nonick (03/19/06 06:08 PM)


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Invisibletak
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: nonick]
    #5420094 - 03/19/06 08:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I totally agree with you. Fuck the man, some dood was driving drunk and swirved into on coming traffic and killed 2 families. 1 father, 2 mothers, and 5 children total. The fucking cops arrested him for drunk driving, fucking assholes.

Then there was this time when I was at work, and the police told us to be carefull...some little girl trying to get out of being kidnapped just got shot and the suspect was on the run. I saw the guy and was like "u go man fuck da man" and never called the cops.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: tak]
    #5420139 - 03/19/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

would you handcuff (and put in a holding cell and probably give fines to) two people you dont know if one person didnt show the other person identification while purchasing alcohol?


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: tak]
    #5420145 - 03/19/06 08:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with proving your age to buy something like alcohol, cigarettes, firearms and hopefully one day marijuana and other drugs. I believe that you should be required to provide some sort of ID if you have been charged with a crime. I do not believe that not carrying ID with you, or failing to provide upon request, should itself be a crime.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: unbeliever]
    #5420164 - 03/19/06 08:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"I agree with proving your age to buy something like alcohol, cigarettes, firearms and hopefully one day marijuana and other drugs."

well i dont want to give ID. would you use violence against me to enforce your value system?


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: nonick]
    #5420182 - 03/19/06 08:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

nonick said:
"I agree with proving your age to buy something like alcohol, cigarettes, firearms and hopefully one day marijuana and other drugs."

well i dont want to give ID. would you use violence against me to enforce your value system?




Where did violence come into it? My reasoning for providing ID for the aforementioned substances and guns is that minors are incapable, legally at least and usually mentally, of making informed decisions. Therefor they should be disallowed from buying substances that are chemically addicting and very destructive when abused, and of course firearms should be a no brainer.

Note: I have no problem with kids using guns under their parent's supervision and I am somewhat ambivalent about kids using drugs under parental control.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: unbeliever]
    #5420209 - 03/19/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"Where did violence come into it? My reasoning for providing ID for the aforementioned substances and guns is that minors are incapable, legally at least and usually mentally, of making informed decisions. Therefor they should be disallowed from buying substances that are chemically addicting and very destructive when abused, and of course firearms should be a no brainer.

Note: I have no problem with kids using guns under their parent's supervision and I am somewhat ambivalent about kids using drugs under parental control."

well the violence comes from the fact that in the world you are envisioning, i would have to do things that i wouldnt want to do because you say it must be as such.

now, i have no problem if YOU are an alcohol store owner and ask for my ID. that is your perogative! but dont be surprised when i tell you that i will be taking my business down the street.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: nonick]
    #5420216 - 03/19/06 08:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

by the way, i just read in your shroomery bio, "I believe in the right to choose."

well so do i, which is precisely why i support choice in these situations you are proposing.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: nonick]
    #5420253 - 03/19/06 08:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

nonick said:
by the way, i just read in your shroomery bio, "I believe in the right to choose."

well so do i, which is precisely why i support choice in these situations you are proposing.




So if a 12 year old chooses to have sex with you, that's okay? It's about informed consent and the ability to make a decisions on an intellectual level and not the pure impulse level that children make decisions on.

Like I said, it's not about kids using drugs or shooting guns (under some kind of adult, preferably parental, supervision). It's about letting them buy it directly (ie, outside of that adult supervision). That is what I think should be restricted and the only way to enforce that would be some form of state issued ID.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: unbeliever]
    #5420268 - 03/19/06 08:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

so is your only concern about children, then?

you are exactly right when you say that the problem is not the drug use itself--rather ensuring that whatever happens, happens with as much oversight from responsible adults as necessary.

why do you think that the state is the only agency which can provide such forms of oversight? can responsible parents not be enough?


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Offlinenonick
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: nonick]
    #5420281 - 03/19/06 08:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

let me give an example of private regulation--

on the shroomery message boards (oh, hey, is that where i am now? what a coincidence...) each trader has a trader rating. if that person doesnt come thru more than once, its safe to say that their rating will go pretty low and not many people will be inclined to deal with them in the future.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: nonick]
    #5420287 - 03/19/06 08:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

the problem you are talking about includes ALL people, and is thus an EXTREMELY complicated problem. complex problems require complex solutions, not simple government knee-jerk reactions.

lets think of an example where government regulation actually works AGAINST what you and i are trying to achieve--a free society.

lets imagine that there is a 22 year old person (or anyone who is over the legal drinking age) who has a pretty bad track record with drinking. lets say that you are a private investigator, and you know for a fact (because you have been surveiling this person) that the last 100 times they went and bought alchol, they went and did some really irresponsible things. maybe they got drunk and went driving. maybe they operated heavy machinery on the job, maybe they even went and did something really evil such as getting drunk and hitting their children.

ok so we know that this guy PROBABLY isnt going to get up to any good the next time he buys alcohol...

now what are the possible solutions to this problem in the current state of affairs--with the government solution--ID checks? well the man simply walks into a store, buys some alcohol, walks out and goes on his merry way.

this is kind of dangerous, especially since there is no apparatus for alcohol vendors to know that even though this guy is old and appears responsible, he really isnt! and even if they thought he was irresponsible, they might get sued if they decide not to serve him if he is sober when he goes in to make the purchase and all. and even if one alcohol vendor decided to shut him out, he could just walk up the street to the next guy.

as you can see, the options for putting a stop to this guys schennagins are kind of limited by the fact that there is already a law in place to "take care of the problem" (of making sure that only "responsible" people can buy alchol) (lol, the idea that age=responsiblity is a joke, right?)


Edited by nonick (03/19/06 08:58 PM)


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: nonick]
    #5420399 - 03/19/06 09:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Look, the crux of it for me is child vs adult. I'm not about to get into a debate about when the legal age should be, 18 seems fair for most things I guess. The point however is that children should not be legally allowed to do certain things. Buying drugs, firearms, explosives etc should not be allowed. Driving also has an age limit. These are good things. If it means you're too young right now to go buy beer and you're bitter about it, that's too bad for you.

As for your example about the 22 year old.. you're not really connecting the dots here. I have no problem with him getting shit-faced drunk and killing his body. I feel bad for him, I feel worse for his friends and family and I would help him if I could. But I'm not going to stop him. The key is when his self-destruction externalizes and hurts someone else. Whether it's drunk driving or a drunken bar fight or whatever.

Yes I believe in choice. But I don't think that children have the ability to really appreciated the different reprecussions different choices will have when faced with a decision. And I think allowing them to be faced with decisions like that is unfair to them and is not really in the spirit of "freedom of choice".


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OfflineAaronEvil
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: nonick]
    #5420681 - 03/19/06 10:36 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I think the 22 year old situation is a little off topic. The ID checks are to ensure that only people of legal age are buying things like cigs, alcohol and whatever else they are legally allowed to purchase. Its to make sure that underage individuals are not purchasing things they should not have. So, an ID check is infact solving the problem it was meant to solve. Now, keeping irresponsible people from purchasing those things is a seperate issue with a seperate solution in which we do not have a working method.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: AaronEvil]
    #5420906 - 03/19/06 11:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

all im saying is that a one size fits all (government) solution to what is fundamentally a problem between indidivudals is not beneficial to the situation. only when individuals are free to enforce their own human rights(by keeping their money and buying the things they need for themselves, instead of hoping someone else who stole the money from them in the first place will then later "buy" the required things for them) will we be able to interact in a free way with people. if you really do know whats best for children regarding alcohol purchases, than the only way we can really tell that is if we put you on the free market to offer your solution! the government doesnt allow you, or me to do that. i want each person to be as free as possible to offer whatever they have of value to everyone else. if you are a valuable person regarding ensuring that kids dont drink if its not appropriate, then you will naturally influence the most people in a free market.

no need to steal money (to use violence) to fund your "solution" and use a bureaucratic one size fits all appraoch to impliment something which you call your solution, but of course always fails dismally when it comes to fulfilling its intended purpose.


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Invisibletak
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Re: america and government IDs [Re: nonick]
    #5421210 - 03/20/06 03:34 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

So what you are saying is that if kids are not allowed to buy alcohol, then adults shouldnt be able to either?

I honestly do not understand.

One one level you are saying that there is too much control by them enforcing ID's. Then you are saying that the government should start restricting alcohol to adults by building an alcohol abuse database. This may be true, but start a new thread, cause to me its 100% off topic.


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