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OfflineElectricJW
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Meditation
    #5417546 - 03/19/06 01:10 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

What are the best ways to meditate? What do you do while meditating? What do you accomplish w/ meditation?

I have never meditated before, but I really would like to learn how. So, give me some pointers.


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5417799 - 03/19/06 02:52 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ElectricJW said:
I have never meditated before, but I really would like to learn how.  So, give me some pointers.




One of the best pointers I could give on how to meditate is to type the term "meditation" into the search form for this forum, and to read and review the knowledge that will spring forth as a result. :wink:

Meditation "A How To Guide"

Meditation Book Recommendations

I recommend this one because it has a link contained within it that has a list of eleven free meditation books that you can read online. :wink:

Dig around the search function for some more information, read what you can find, and return when you have a better idea of some techniques and some increased understanding. Then we can really discuss meditation together. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5418042 - 03/19/06 09:12 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

focus


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Disclaimer!?


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OfflineElectricJW
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Re: Meditation [Re: Gomp]
    #5418612 - 03/19/06 02:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Fireworks, Nice post :thumbup:!  I didnt even think about searching it through here. 

What exactly are you doing when meditating?  I just really know nothing on this subject, sorry i'm such a newb. :smile:


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5418630 - 03/19/06 02:13 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

""What exactly are you doing when meditating?""


Good question..

..., you could be doing it right now! :laugh:


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Meditation [Re: Gomp]
    #5418654 - 03/19/06 02:21 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

1. Sit comfortably
2. Breathe 
3. Notice anything, open around it and feel the breath
4. REPEAT steps 2 and 3 AD INFINITUM


That is the basic format for meditation.  And when I say notice anything, I mean anything.  Such thoughts as "I am breathing, this is stupid, my toe hurts" etc, are just thoughts. 

Then after a while of practicing this, you will start to notice that those once verbal thoughts are no longer verbal, but contractions of attention on a specific part of your body causing you to "think" you need to slightly adjust yourself.  You do not.  If you remain still, those patterns of contraction will pass, and things will resolve themselves.

Once you can release attention from bodily awareness, you will start feeling like there is no you at all.  However this is also a thought.  Things will start making you feel "spiritual" and you will probably think that you have attained some sort of spiritual awakening.  No, you are just thinking again.  The open state that allowed the wisdom to arise, has been closed off by your attachments to attainment. 

After (much) more practice, you will start to realize that there is nothing to attain, because you already have it.  Here you are, sitting, breathing, tasting, touching, hearing, seeing, feeling and thinking.  But the sense of a knower dissolves, and becomes only what is known.   

This is where things get interesting.  No reflection can stain a mirror, but the mirror can get dusty.  Meditate, and it will be cleaned.  After more time, you will enter into a state called (in zen) "kensho" which is a glimpse of your true nature.  However because grasping and attachment still thrive, you cannot maintain this state for very long.  The psychedelic experience has been likened to the state of kensho.  A temporary enlightenment so to speak. 

As more time passes, you realize there is no mirror.  Only the reflection of one.  This is called "shattering the mirror".  This is where meditation practice really begins.  After this, no words can describe what to do.  Your knowledge of practice becomes your teacher.   

I hope this gives you some insights on what meditation is.  Now remember, there are many forms of meditation, and no one method is better than another.  Some are more direct/sterile, some are more colorful/frilly.  The dualistic expression of these shows how one might interpret the paths differently.  For me, the direct path is the only way.  Others might see it as sterile and lifeless.  While to me the colorful spiritual experiences that many consider the only way, seem to loaded with frills and distractions, full of others interpretations.  Just remember that the truth is in you .  Do not submit to another's reality in order to make things work. You will only be looking at the world through colored glasses.   

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Meditation [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5418757 - 03/19/06 03:04 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

^^ GREAT read! :wink::thumbup:


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Meditation [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5418982 - 03/19/06 04:29 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you. :japsmile:


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Invisibleasd11
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Re: Meditation [Re: dorkus]
    #5419070 - 03/19/06 05:05 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I would recommend you try the 4 fold-breath when trying to meditate. While counting inside your head, breathe to this tempo: In 2 3 4 out 2 3 4 in 2 3 4 out 2 3 4 ....

Counting inside your head keeps you focused, and maintaining that breath rythim gets you into a state of deep meditation in about 10-15min, it's a real natural high.


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OfflinePeyote_Princess
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Re: Meditation [Re: asd11]
    #5419190 - 03/19/06 05:49 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I found it helps me as I breathe during meditation to think about the breaths closely; and think to myself aout breathing out the bad stuff, the anxiety and generally all the negative energy that I may have experienced since my last meditation.  And as I breathe in, think about breathing in positive energy to take its place, to focus on the beaty of nature (this is a big things for me right now, spring solstice is coming  in a couple of days and I like to see all the spring flowers pushing their way through!)

The links are good too... I'd advice looking at various suggestions and techniques, and discover the one that you feel most comfortable with, and suits you the best - I don't think that it is one of those one size fits all type things.

But there's no need for big ceremony; just setling down to some chilled out music and focusing on a piece of artwork, or just one poem that you like or a candle flame and focusing on that, and deep breathing can be the easiest form of meditation - and still does lots of good for the mind and spirit.

Peyote_Princess xXx :mushroom2:


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"Was I talking? ... Did they hear me?"


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Meditation [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5419307 - 03/19/06 06:28 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

On the Psychology of Meditation by Claudio Naranjo & Robert E. Ornstein
Good chapter on the two basic forms of meditation - concentrative and absorptive. Most people here tend to cite absorptive techniques (like Zen) whereas Yogic, Sufi or Christian [Hesychastic] techniques tend towards the concentrative forms. Comfort with techniques is highly dependent on our personality types.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5419511 - 03/19/06 07:28 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
On the Psychology of Meditation by Claudio Naranjo & Robert E. Ornstein
Good chapter on the two basic forms of meditation - concentrative and absorptive. Most people here tend to cite absorptive techniques (like Zen) whereas Yogic, Sufi or Christian [Hesychastic] techniques tend towards the concentrative forms. Comfort with techniques is highly dependent on our personality types.




Actually, Zen relies on none of these techniques.  Absorptive meditation (Skt. Vipashyana; Jap. Shi) and concentrative (Skt. shamata; Jap. Kan) are the root of Buddhist meditation.  The trouble there is that each of these implies progress, therefore approaching enlightenment from the viewpoint of the student.  In Zen, there is no meditation.  There is simply sitting, walking, eating and shitting.  Do you need a special technique to know how to walk?  No, because it is something you just know how to do.  You dont think "right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot..."  You simply walk.  When sitting, that is all there is.  Just sitting.  All devices you are given, are simply a means to realize that you already know how to sit.  Concentration is helpful at first, but quickly becomes a crutch because it contracts your attention around that which is the object of concentration.  Zen is not meditation.  Zen is simply waking up to your life as it is, right now
 

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


--------------------
There are an infinite number of ways to interpret experience... The trick is not to fall for any of them


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Meditation [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5419701 - 03/19/06 08:09 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Would you recommend counting (1-10) and then shifting over to effortless awareness? Shifting between the two depending on state of mind?


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Meditation [Re: dorkus]
    #5419895 - 03/19/06 08:53 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
Would you recommend counting (1-10) and then shifting over to effortless awareness? Shifting between the two depending on state of mind?




Just sit there.  Thats all you need to do. 

Everything that comes up, notice it, and open back to the sensations of the breath and 6 bodily senses (the sixth being mind), and just sit there.  LOTS of stuff comes up.  Emotions, verbal thoughts, pictures, questions, ideas, plans, sensations, colors, forms, anything that you catch yourself isolating.  Its not about the seen,  its about the seeing. 

Regarding counting, it can help, but all it does is give self image something to cling to.  Once you recognize open awareness, particular mantras can be recited, and koans can be practiced to further release grasping, but those too are simply things to give you something to do.  All you have to do is sit there.  When it doesnt bother you, it wont bother you.     

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


--------------------
There are an infinite number of ways to interpret experience... The trick is not to fall for any of them


Edited by Quoiyaien (03/19/06 09:06 PM)


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OfflinePeyote_Princess
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Re: Meditation [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5419938 - 03/19/06 09:03 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Don't overthink meditation.... worrying about this technique, that method...

just learn to be...

Peyote_Princess xXx :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Was I talking? ... Did they hear me?"


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Meditation [Re: Peyote_Princess]
    #5419976 - 03/19/06 09:14 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote_Princess said:


just learn to be...





That about sums it up. :laugh:

We humans can make that quite difficult sometimes, cant we? :tongue:

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


--------------------
There are an infinite number of ways to interpret experience... The trick is not to fall for any of them


Edited by Quoiyaien (03/20/06 09:58 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Meditation [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5420329 - 03/19/06 10:57 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Differences between Zen meditation and Yoga meditation were explored decades ago [K.T. Behanan] and there are certain behavioral differences such as startle response which can be documented. The nature of the 'trances' seemed to differ, with the concentrative Yoga trance making one more oblivious to external startle stimulus than the Zen meditation. The whole 'Point' is to 'contract your attention around a point.' It is not a "crutch," it is called 'Ekagrata' - one-pointedness, and it constitutes the Yoga stage of 'concentration' which becomes 'meditation' when it becomes effortless.

Of course Zen IS meditation, and the results of meditation, derived from Ch'an, taught by Bodhidharma, etc. No need to be possessive about your take on it - it IS another take on Zen. There must be as many takes on Zen as there have been practitioners - or non-practitioners  :wink:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Meditation [Re: ElectricJW]
    #5420600 - 03/20/06 12:04 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

>>>>What do you accomplish w/ meditation?

Sorry for the long post, but I'm very enthusiastic about meditation. I'm not trying to be long winded, I just felt this is what's necessary to properly answer your question in the way I know how.

You change your mind, to be very general about it. To be specific, what do you want to accomplish? Would you like to find what enlightenment is? Do you want to know what it feels like to be Jesus? Uptight and need to relax? Would you like to be able to pick up hot chicks? Do you get angry often, and want to find a way to rise above that? Need help focusing on school? Tired of being bored? Use your imagination and see what you can come up with. Do you have a dream in your head of who you would like to be, but aren't?

As for how to meditate, I'm learning that there are many different ways/types of meditation, I can only comment on what I've done.

Hands down easiest meditation: This requires no thought on your part whatsoever, cept for a little physical control. I read in a book a couple of lines which basically stated that by holding your breath for an XX count and slowly letting out for an XX count, I could create ecstasy. A pretty bold claim I thought. I tried, didn't feel much... fullness in the lungs, blood pressure in my head slightly elevated. HAHA, so much for ecstasy, but then I thought, perhaps I'm not doing it right, plus I figured as a smoker the extra oxygen might be a good thing. So I kept at it. 2-3 times a day, generally while I was driving around in my car, I would hold my breath :grin: trying different lengths of time, different amounts of air, in/out through the nose or mouth... but still not trying from a mental standpoint to gain anything. I wanted that FREE ecstasy.

Well, I found it, and here's what I've learned: It's an extended sigh. Why do people sigh? To relieve mental pressure. If you try, you can think while sighing, but the unconscious reaction during a sigh is to just let it all go, and while you are sighing there's not a though in your head. Try it now if you like.

But there's more: As the weeks progressed, I began to think there was a slight hint of ecstasy. I soon became a believer, and was holding my breath as often as possible. At this point, 8 months later, I can hold my breath and my entire body feels good, pure NATURAL ecstasy. It was about 6 months ago when I first realized there was something more to it than I could explain, I began to get curious about a lot of things, shrooms being one of them, that's how I ended up here :cool:

This is what led into chakra meditation for me. Though holding my breath makes my whole body feel good, I began to notice that some places felt better than others. My chest would especially feel good, and then there was my throat. I noticed that If I breathed the last bit of breath in through my nose, my throat felt fantastic, in the same way it does when you're in a great mood, you're outside, the weather is good, and you just feel like taking in a big breath of sweet air. Oddly enough, this didn't occur all the time. It was most pronounced during the week after shrooming.

My current technique: I slowly (at whatever pace I feel like) breath in through my mouth, and fill my belly. Once my belly is about full, I breath in through the nose and fill up my chest. Then I hold it (for however long I feel like) and slowly let it out through my nose (at whatever pace I like). I don't take in any more air than I'm comfortable with. I've found that the "emotion" that I build up can be directed by my mind as I let the air out. I can push that energy down through my legs and make my feet tingle. I can push it anywhere on my body and get interesting effects. I've also found that this simple breathing exercise calms me down, elevates my mood, and make me think deeper.

To tie this in with chakras, the points that felt especially good are chakras. Once I discovered this all kinds of things started to click. Chakras are energy points in the body, the major ones run down a line through the center of your body. Opening these chakras will produce many startling changes in your life. If everyone has them, why aren't they just naturally open? Life is HARD. At a young age, most people begin to close their chakras to some degree as a self defence mechanism. People do a variety of drugs to close their chakras. Open chakras force you to confront issues, open chakras will make you a sensitive person. Not sensitive in a weak way, but in a GOOD way. Still, a lot of people don't want to have anything to do with it, sensitive=weak. Much better, in their minds, to continue trudging through life bashing anything that gets in the way. Of course this isn't the case with everyone, in fact, we all have chakras open to a certain degree. Some people are naturals, and would receive less benefit than others from meditation, and they may be totally unaware of this as a system. They'll say they love, they feel confident, enterprising, they feel sexual, etc. And in the natural world that's the way it works. The degree to which each chakra is open is a big determinant of an individuals personality.

Anyway, I realized that breathing alone probably wouldn't get them all open, and also read that there's an order in which they should be opened. For instance, opening the higher chakras (beyond the first 7) before the lower ones could result in you telling the cops the angels told you to kill the neighbors cats.

So I began chakra meditation which is basically focusing on the physical location of an individual chakra. Unlike the simple breathing exercise, you must focus. It's hard to describe, but at my most effective I'm moving energy/emotion in opposing directions simultaneously. For instance, the root chakra is located between the legs in the area between the sex organ and the anus :smile: I visualize/feel a root growing down from there (movement down) and at the same time I feel nutrients/energy (moving up) through the root into the body. This upward energy eventually fills my whole body til every nerve ending I have feels good... but not as good as the chakra itself.

When done properly, it's an INCREDIBLE feeling. Drugs are a cheap dime store imitation.

What's interesting/odd is that specific chakras relate to specific areas of life. Reading about it is one thing, experiencing, to KNOW for yourself is another. The first chakra is called the root because it makes one feel grounded. That's exactly what it does. I quit worrying about time, quit worrying about other people's opinions, I found patience, don't feel loneliness, or feel like the world is a swirling mass of chaos (or at least I'm no longer a part of that). All the chakras have a specific realm, sexuality, success and confidence, the ability to give and receive love, putting aside judgment, being able to boldly speak the truth when necessary (as opposed to 5 minutes later when you realize what you SHOULD have said), concentration and mental acuity, and finally ego-loss.

I'm nowhere near that level, but I'm a happy guy. A year ago I was quick to anger, judgmental, and looked at life as an atheist. I saw life as a long haul, a "bitch" with a few hours here, a few hours there to actually relax, do some drugs and forget about how much life sucked. I looked at true happiness as something I couldn't attain, something that when tried for might make me optimistic for a few days, a week, whatever, only to come crashing down at some point. I was placing my hopes in the material world, and because I wasn't happy inside those hopes were unattainable. Even if I had succeeded on some noteworthy level, it would have ended up being a case of the grass being greener on the other side.

That's what meditation is for me, but there's much yet to discover. As I said, I've done the breathing thing since last fall, I've been doing chakra meditation for about a month now. Results are not way over the horizon.

Also, I mentioned that drugs are a cheap imitation. I don't say this in a judgmental way. Everything has it's reason and purpose. I still smoke pot, but right now I'm straight and feel no need, I would normally be quite stoned this time of night. I've also noticed that it's easier to meditate "clean" as opposed to having smoked 3 hogs the night before. I quit drinking a year ago, but I imagine meditation would be near impossible for me as a regular drinker.

I think at their best, drugs have things they can teach us. For instance, if you'd like to try meditation but aren't able to feel your root (and you happen to smoke weed), get high. While you're high, notice where in your body you feel the best. I tried this on a friend of mine and asked him. He said "umm... my dick?" So I said "your dick, or somewhere close to it?" He responded "a little behind it". Bingo, that's the root.

One other thing: If you go charging into chakra meditation, be aware that it's possible to open them too much. The use of drugs, especially shrooms, loosen them up. I hurt myself a few weeks ago by meditating the day after shrooming. You want them open, but not wide open. I can't really describe what happened, but it's almost like I leaked out a LOT of energy. It left me weak and shaking, I was unable to meditate properly until a few days ago, and I had to not think about my head, it caused a stinging sensation and made me dizzy. This experience made me realize I could use drugs to facilitate opening chakras, but I'd much rather do it "on my own". I almost feel like it would result in bad karma. To each their own though.

I'll quit typing :smile: I could say a bunch more, but I've made my point.

Edit: Just wanted to comment on psychedelics specifically. At THIS POINT in time, I feel a need to make progress on my own, if drugs have something further to teach me I'll know when the time comes. At the same time, though drugs have taught me things, I have this feeling that enlightnment is a capability that's built into us, it's something that can be done without drugs. But it's all kind of confusing to me right now because where I stand was determined by the path I took. Something to ponder.

Rahz


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


Edited by Rahz (03/20/06 12:29 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Meditation [Re: Rahz]
    #5421276 - 03/20/06 06:45 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

there are different kinds of temperments, or mentalities, just as there are differnt feet.

the various meditations are like differently shaped shoehorns to get differently shaped minds into good walking shoes.

Mind is very plastic or fluid, and is conditioned by repetition, hence the practice of meditation forms.

On a nice sandy beach there may be no need for shoes of any kind.


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OfflineElectricJW
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Re: Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5421365 - 03/20/06 08:30 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Here is what happened last night.

I was laying in the bed, concentrating on my breathing.  After like a min I had no thoughts, then I heard a ringing in my ear.  ( Somewhere someone said to concentrate on the highest pitch noise)  So I concentrated on the highest pitch noise, and when I did this I an extreamely intense body high set in, and the noise was real loud.  Then I lost focus, and it stopped. 

Is this normal? And what happens (or what should I expect) after I breakthrough?

>>>>Rahz.... :thumbup: Post!  Can you post more on the charka locations and all that.  Or pm?  That is real interesting to me.


--------------------
"Visualize the action, then actualize the vision." - King of the Hill

“Long you live and high you'll fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.”- Pink Floyd


Edited by ElectricJW (03/20/06 08:32 AM)


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