Home | Community | Message Board

Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
OfflinePrajna
ReliablyUnreliable
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 588
Loc: Proud Canadian
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Gitmo NOW
    #5417153 - 03/18/06 08:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I am upset by the previous post, and poll on GITMO. It is a subject near and dear to my heart, and it saddens me greatly to see the issue break up into 60 year old petty arguments.

The last poll was worded in an incorrect and politically explosive manner, and I believe the issue is more important than what is being represented in this last failed poll. So I would like to open this thread as a way for shroomerites to sound off on GITMO.

Please, lets try to stray from the "Nazi" comparisons and get to the heart of the issue, NOW, not 60 years ago.

I am a Canadian and I feel like the prison camps in Guantanamo are a bad reflection on us in the "West", and our value system, and our democracy...

I believe that our "western system" is a great system of tolerance, values, and beauty that COULD be broadcast to the middle eastern countries as a beacon of hope while they struggle with violence and repressive regimes. Unfortunately I think that Guantanamo is counter-productive to this, and just wrong from a human rights standpoint.

In general I think that great people lead by EXAMPLE, not torture...

There have been people that have been released from GITMO. If they were released then I can only assume that they were no threat to anyone, or were found innocent by those in charge. This SHOULD relieve me of the burden of thinking that these people were treated unfairly, but it doesn't...

It only serves to make me realize that SOME of these people were torn from their homeland, and families for no reason...

I also believe that people should not be held ANYWHERE without some sort of public oversight, I mean it is one of the very principals of our western system, is it not. There should always be a system of checks and balances on imprisonment under our laws, why do our morals only apply to OUR nations?

I will stop now, because this is becoming a rant, but I would like to encourage people to debate this issue here, on this thread. Based what is going on NOW, instead of on that other post...


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefresh313
journeyman
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: Prajna]
    #5417215 - 03/18/06 09:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

War's a bitch. When u topple Americas World Trade Centers, theres going to be consequences and repurcussions. Should we let them bomb our shit then put them in the Hilton? you dont think innocent people here are being Torn from thier lives to go to the sandboxes and fight and die cuz of these jihad mf'ers.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: Prajna]
    #5417925 - 03/19/06 02:53 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Great people and great nations don't usually lead by example...they lead by strength.

OH god I'm drunk/


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: fresh313]
    #5417994 - 03/19/06 05:36 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Don't you realize that we created these Jihad m'fers, and there are billions more where they came from.

We're lucky their culture is stupid, backwards and ignorant, otherwise we'd be fucked.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefresh313
journeyman
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5418029 - 03/19/06 06:35 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

you can only create yourself, as much as you or i want to say we/them are a product of the surrounding environment and mitigating factors, the means are always there for cultural transcendence and personal growth. there are no excuses only explanations.

why and or how would be fucked if they werent backwards and ignorant ?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: Prajna]
    #5418094 - 03/19/06 07:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Prajna writes:

Quote:

Unfortunately I think that Guantanamo is counter-productive to this, and just wrong from a human rights standpoint.




Gitmo is a prisoner of war camp -- where the prisoners being held are illegal combatants. This isn't question of "human rights", but a question of what should be the correct protocol for handling illegal combatants.

Quote:

There have been people that have been released from GITMO. If they were released then I can only assume that they were no threat to anyone, or were found innocent by those in charge.




At least a dozen of those released from Gitmo went right back to the battlefield. At least three of those have since been killed on the battlefield. So yes, sometimes the authorities make mistakes. While it may be true that some being held in Gitmo are not in fact enemy combatants at all, it is indisputably true that many who were enemy combatants should have been kept there rather than being released.

Quote:

I also believe that people should not be held ANYWHERE without some sort of public oversight, I mean it is one of the very principals of our western system, is it not. There should always be a system of checks and balances on imprisonment under our laws, why do our morals only apply to OUR nations?




You make the same mistake the 9/10 crowd (including John Kerry) does -- that of confusing a criminal offense with an act of war. These are prisoners of war we're talking about here, not bank robbers. Accepted procedure for dealing with captured enemy is to hold them until the end of hostilities so they don't immediately head back to the battlefield and kill more of your guys.

There isn't a single prisoner currently in Gitmo who hasn't been in front of a military tribunal. The purpose of the tribunal is to determine whether or not the prisoner in question is in fact an enemy combatant. In many cases, the tribunal decides the prisoner is NOT an enemy combatant, and he is released.

You can argue that sometimes the tribunals make mistakes, and I won't deny that -- they were obviously mistaken when they released the dozen or so I mentioned above -- but mistakes are made in the criminal courts as well.

The point you seem to be missing is that there are basically three things you can do with captured enemy --

1) turn them loose

2) lock them up

3) kill them

I'm presuming you are rational enough to reject option 1), and compassionate enough to reject option 3). Unless I'm missing something, that leaves option 2). If you don't like the idea of locking them up in Gitmo, just where would you suggest they be locked up?




Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 5 hours, 50 minutes
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: Prajna]
    #5418121 - 03/19/06 08:21 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

why and or how would be fucked if they werent backwards and ignorant ?




"A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again."

If those people were at all competent at overthrowing us, they could. They fact that we are smarter than them is the only thing keeping them from wiping us off the face of the planet.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5418340 - 03/19/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I dont think we created these Jihad m'fers. They have been around much longer than america has.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefresh313
journeyman
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: DieCommie]
    #5419416 - 03/19/06 05:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Baby_Hitler, what anarchist technology would the jihad mf'ers use to accomplish this 'overthrow' ?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: Phred]
    #5421318 - 03/20/06 05:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You make the same mistake the 9/10 crowd (including John Kerry) does -- that of confusing a criminal offense with an act of war. These are prisoners of war we're talking about here, not bank robbers. Accepted procedure for dealing with captured enemy is to hold them until the end of hostilities so they don't immediately head back to the battlefield and kill more of your guys.




Why can we not have public oversight and due process for combatants? (combatants = illegal soldiers not protected by the GC) I have no problem holding them until the war is over, but I still think they should be treated as regular POWs. If the war on terrorism never ends, then I have no problem with the combatants getting a life term... one of those play with fire get burned sort of things. However, I realize that mistakes are made... as such, there should be a fair process that allows mistakes to be corrected.

How much of a security risk, or how much of an information source, is a prisoner that has been "out of touch" for the last four years? So much so that we wont even let them talk with the international red cross? Well, at least we aren't chopping off their heads while chanting Jesus is Greatest and broadcasting it on al-CNN-a. Still, it would be much easier to deny torture allegations if we had international monitors there watching what was going on.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: Phred]
    #5422176 - 03/20/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

If GITMO is on the up and up.......then why is it in Cuba and not on American soil?

The issue of putting our POW's in a facility off US territory (IMO) has always seemed like an easy way around our laws.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedaimyo
Monticello

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 12 years, 18 hours
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: Prajna]
    #5422182 - 03/20/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I don't care about the place because it doesn't directly affect me.

That said, I think the prisoners should be entitled to a speedy trial. That, or killed within 3 months of arrival unless they are more valuable alive.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: niteowl]
    #5422243 - 03/20/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If GITMO is on the up and up.......then why is it in Cuba and not on American soil?




First of all, Gitmo is American soil.

But if your question is why Gitmo rather than Utah, I can think of at least one good reason. I don't know if it's the same reason the Bush administration decided to put them there, though --

Any attempt by their compadres to break them out of prison would take place far away from American civilians. About as far away as it's possible to get, actually, since American citizens aren't supposed to travel to Cuba. Same with internally engineered escape attempts -- if some of the inmates manage to make it out on their own, they're not wandering around suburban or rural America.

Why? Do you think they should be moved to a location in Illinois or Michigan or Montana?



Phred


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: Phred]
    #5422329 - 03/20/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

First, I have complete confidence in our military's ability to keep the prisoners locked up. I would let our military put their camp in my back yard if they so desired.

Second, if the POW camp were in America their would be a better chance of having civilian eyes and ears in the place to uphold the Geneva Convention laws.



Oh, and I don't remember Cuba joining the U.S.

The U.S. may have rented part of Cuba.......but that dosent mean that GITMO is in American territory. It is an American military post in a foriegn country.

Anyone who has ever been in the US military can tell you that they are not governed by the constitution. They have their own set of rules and bylaws that govern them.
When your in the military you no longer have the rights granted by the constitution.

When a military post is operation, off American soil, they are not bound by the constitution in the same way they would be if they were in the Continental U.S.


One of the primary reasons (IMO) for having GITMO in Cuba and not in Alcatraz(sp)


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OnlineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 8 minutes, 28 seconds
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: niteowl]
    #5422522 - 03/20/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

niteowl stated:

Anyone who has ever been in the US military can tell you that they are not governed by the constitution. They have their own set of rules and bylaws that govern them.
When your in the military you no longer have the rights granted by the constitution.



It is called the UCMJ. The Uniform Code of Military Justice. Although your rights such as free speech are more limited (it would be hard to give orders to someone, and then they yell "Fuck You!!")
you are still given a trail with representation, and so on. You have to relinquish some rights in order to promote uniformity and military bearing. But all the above is a necessary for an efficient military.

In regards to the Constitution, the military has the same operational abilities on American soil or abound....the Constitution does not prohibit the military from doing anything. Remember the LA riots, when they sent the Marines in? Or recently when they sent them in the Philippines? The military has never had any codes of conduct derived from the US Constitution.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemack_tasticlies
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 167
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
Re: Gitmo NOW [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5422588 - 03/20/06 01:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It is against the law for the military to deployed on American soil for the act of enforcing laws or waging war.

Posse comitatus.

http://www.dojgov.net/posse_comitatus_act.htm

20 Stat. L., 145

June 18, 1878

CHAP. 263 - An act making appropriations for the support of the Army for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, eighteen hundred and seventy-nine, and for other purposes.

SEC. 15. From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section And any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment.

10 U.S.C. (United States Code) 375

Sec. 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel:

The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

18 U.S.C. 1385

Sec. 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of
Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to
execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

unfortunately it happens all the time though!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Coming American Dictatorship
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Ancalagon 3,831 72 06/22/04 06:51 AM
by Phred
* "Constitution" Restoration Act.... A new low in Act naming.. FrankieJustTrypt 987 5 11/08/04 07:09 AM
by Phred
* A Material Breach of the Constitution Ellis Dee 1,106 7 02/19/03 05:44 PM
by BowlKiller
* Debunking another Gitmo myth. lonestar2004 741 4 06/23/05 08:43 AM
by Phred
* American Gestapo afoaf 542 10 10/12/04 09:14 PM
by kaiowas
* On serious note, Gitmo tactics far from torture lonestar2004 731 3 06/20/05 04:17 PM
by Redstorm
* American Media Floydian 3,672 13 06/07/01 01:56 PM
by jihead
* Abuse at Gitmo Los_Pepes 723 5 06/28/05 05:13 PM
by exclusive58

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
883 topic views. 1 members, 6 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.025 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 14 queries.