Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
rationality
    #5408869 - 03/16/06 03:12 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

rationality is either a sick joke, or a huuuge mistake.
if life has a meaning and no one told me, its a sick fucking joke.
if it doesnt, then having rationality is a huuuuge mistake.
im tired.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5408942 - 03/16/06 03:31 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

:what:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBooby
Agent Mulder
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5408948 - 03/16/06 03:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

If life has meaning and no one told you then they're sick? You may have a point.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5408961 - 03/16/06 03:35 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Don't think of rationality as an end in itself, more as a means to an end.

By the way your signature is cool :thumbup:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: rationality [Re: dblaney]
    #5408980 - 03/16/06 03:38 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

i dont think that i think of rationality as an end.
in fact my troubles come from trying to use it as a means.
it continually fails miserably.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5409048 - 03/16/06 03:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"When the wrong man uses the right means, the right means work in the wrong way."

Become the right man :thumbup:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: rationality [Re: dblaney]
    #5409059 - 03/16/06 03:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

i dont understand how truth could be less true or more true if i were someone else.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5409066 - 03/16/06 04:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
i dont think that i think of rationality as an end.
in fact my troubles come from trying to use it as a means.
it continually fails miserably.



Maybe you're just not very good at it. :shrug:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5409211 - 03/16/06 04:34 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

We're talking about rationality, not truth.

:smile:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5409258 - 03/16/06 04:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
rationality is either a sick joke, or a huuuge mistake.
if life has a meaning and no one told me, its a sick fucking joke.
if it doesnt, then having rationality is a huuuuge mistake.
im tired.




Would it still be, if you play the joke on yourself?

:confused: :thumbup:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5409281 - 03/16/06 04:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Define rationality in your own words, in no more than a paragraph.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5410344 - 03/16/06 09:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Some schools of thought hold rationality, "the ability to reason" as what came after the eating the apple from the proverbial tree of knowledge of good and evil. Before then, (duality) it was all good and there was nothing to be rationalized. 

I'd like to show another side of rationality for people to consider.


Consider that some people used rationality to reason the creation of atomic bombs using mathematical logistics, and further used rationality to reason dropping two of them on thousands of innocent civilians. They gave warning and their demands wern't met so they then also rationalized that it was fair to bomb away on all those who never had a choice in the matter.

Some may argue that rationality also means sane reasoning. Sanity is a legal terminology for measuring ones ability to know what is legal in accordance with the law and what is not. Many sane people murder, rob and rape knowing full well, its illegal and do it anyway. Sanity means cocca too.

Some may argue that rationality also means fair and just reasoning.
So is it rational for Joe to murder Robs child because Rob murdered his?  :crazy:


If a human has no base for reasoning that rests its balancing point on the good will of all involved and compassion "fellow feeling", what is rationality but a means of reasoning a justification for ANY action?

Is what is fair and just always the way to go? If we play that way we will always be evening the score. Well, you punched me so I get to punch you. Well, you punched me back so I get to punch you back. Well you punched me back so I get to punch you back. Fair and justness doesn't always mean it's being applied to anything universally good for all involved.

Is what is mathematically logical and possible always the way to go? Plotting a successful kidnapping for ransom and a hostile corporate take over require it just the same as using it to make calculations for open heart surgery. It doesn't always mean the use of it is being applied to a universal good for all.

Is what is sane always the way to go? One can know its illegal to murder, rape and rob and reason doing it anyway. One can not know its illegal to walk around the block naked because they live in la la land, be labeled insane and yet have harmed no one. Sanity or insanity doesn't always mean its being aplied to a universal good or harm to others.

Perhaps that is what Bleak meant by rationality being a sick joke and that it doesn't give life any meaning that is extra special to anything else.

I only posted from this view to stimulate further thinking for those who like to entertain uncommon perspectives.

On a take off note, I was imagining life and a world where no one knew such a thing as bad, harm, il will, wrong, or darkness. There would be no rationality or irrationality- just non ration, nothing to judge and nothing to fear. I suppose I just described the state of total innocence. Weird to contemplate what that would be like.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: rationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5410784 - 03/16/06 11:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'd like to show another side of rationality for people to consider.

And after reading what you wrote thereafter, I must say that to be fair and accurate, you are actually showing another side of people - not rationality itself. Rationality is really an ethical tool, and as such, it can be used for bad, bad things, or it can be used for good, good things.

When one's ethical premises are structured on a malevolent or contradictory base, one's actions will naturally be detrimental to oneself or others. This is because an action based on a belief or premise in a particular cause-effect relationship will not occur if that relationship is invalid or contradictory.
Likewise, when one's ethical premises are structured on a benevolent and consistent base, one's actions will naturally be harmonious to oneself and others. This is because an action based on a premise in a particular cause-effect relationship will occur when that relationship is valid or congruent with nature.

At any rate, rationality is an essential must for our survival - there is no other alternative except to act on mere whim. To use rationality to its most glorious power, one is to have a logical and consistent hierarchal base from metaphysics through epistemology and to ethics, and thus understand the fact that rationality means acting according to reason. Reason is the faculty that identifies the information provided by our five senses, and integrates them into concepts. This means being rational is acting in accordance with the facts of reality.

Rationality is essential to our survival. It is in our self-interest to be rational, for it is only acting in accordance with the facts of reality that we can achieve desired outcomes.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: rationality [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5410970 - 03/17/06 12:43 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

When one's ethical premises are structured on a malevolent or contradictory base, one's actions will naturally be detrimental to oneself or others. This is because an action based on a belief or premise in a particular cause-effect relationship will not occur if that relationship is invalid or contradictory.
Likewise, when one's ethical premises are structured on a benevolent and consistent base, one's actions will naturally be harmonious to oneself and others. This is because an action based on a premise in a particular cause-effect relationship will occur when that relationship is valid or congruent with nature.




BAM! :yesnod:

You just captured there the essence of what I was breaking it down too. The thing is, who doesn't rationalize most of the time. We'd be dead or in jail if we didn't.

Yes, it is vital for our survival. Thats a given to me.

I think what needs more emphasise is not how to rationalize but an examination of the core ethics one reasons with.

Like I said, I can legitimately rationalize some pretty heinous destructive acts just on the dictionary definition of the word rational alone.

It itself is not the key to anything aspiring. But of course, with an aspiring ethical base seeking common good will for all, then rational just naturally follows, just as it would naturally follow the thinking processes of one who aspired world domination through oppression.

Until someone contributes the grounding ethics of one rational, rational itself doesn't mean much.

Sometimes I think the word itself gets gold plated. That can be a danger in disguise. If people get all caught up in beleiving that rational thinking is always the correct way to think, they may start to loose sight of what its being applied to. If so they may use logic to follow that believing "if something can be rationalized then it must be ethically correct or justified action to take." Thats not always the case. Sometimes it is.

I'm just raising awareness in general for people to think more deeply on such things. The ethics rationalization is being applied to is important.

I would rather see humans irrationally or non rationally marrying  toads believing they are soul mates then someone using rationality based on a different code of ethics from mine to plan and justify an attack like 9/11.

In short, the words rational and irrational alone don't mean much until you learn the nature of the acts the thought processes are being applied too. I hope I am being understood correctly.  :smile:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: rationality [Re: BleaK]
    #5411075 - 03/17/06 01:17 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

rationality is either a sick joke, or a huuuge mistake.

Whaddya mean by "rationality"?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: rationality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5411090 - 03/17/06 01:21 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Consider that some people used rationality to reason the creation of atomic bombs

Sames goes fer you.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: rationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5411117 - 03/17/06 01:32 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I would rather see humans irrationally or non rationally marrying toads believing they are soul mates then someone using rationality based on a different code of ethics from mine to plan and justify an attack like 9/11.

Any syllogism can be valid as long as its constructed properly.

I love toads.
I should marry things I love.
Therefore, I should marry toads.

In order for something to be irrational, it would have to violate a Law of Logic (causality, identity, etc) or contain a fallacy (non-sequitur, etc).

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: rationality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5411155 - 03/17/06 01:47 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I should've thought that example through better. See what rational logic can produce with such a base? Marriages to soul mate toads. :tongue:

How bout this for a harmless irrational act- wearing underwear on top of your clothes. :cool:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: rationality [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5412014 - 03/17/06 09:42 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

And after reading what you wrote thereafter, I must say that to be fair and accurate, you are actually showing another side of people - not rationality itself.

They go hand in hand though, rationality doesn't exist independently of a being capable of rationality.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
Re: rationality [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5412074 - 03/17/06 10:04 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I see it like that too. The problem with rationality is, where does it get its reason from ? There are numerous possible reasons who can be argued from with rationality. Some reasons even are contradictious. But I think that has been said before.
:thumbup:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Rationality, Objectivity and Logic
( 1 2 3 all )
SkorpivoMusterion 6,661 45 10/15/05 11:19 AM
by BlueCoyote
* Rational vs. Irrational Beliefs
( 1 2 all )
Swami 10,638 39 01/14/05 05:58 PM
by Alan Stone
* Being religious contradicts being intelligent?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
inetiatic 8,304 73 02/22/07 11:11 PM
by Continuum
* why are there so many loopholes, blanks, and contradictions in logic?
( 1 2 3 all )
MrBuzin 5,254 40 02/20/07 01:49 PM
by shroomydan
* Are Believers Rational Beings?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Swami 8,196 60 04/22/02 03:23 AM
by infidelGOD
* Nonviolence and rationalism
( 1 2 all )
Mark_W 1,873 27 08/09/07 12:23 PM
by Rhizoid
* Hey! Multidimensionals on Contradictions
( 1 2 all )
gettinjiggywithit 2,238 32 09/15/04 10:14 AM
by Gomp
* Making Use of Non-Rational Experience
( 1 2 all )
Huehuecoyotl 3,033 30 11/12/06 05:28 PM
by Veritas

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
2,915 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.026 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.