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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


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The Proper Metaphysical Attitude
#5406947 - 03/16/06 01:32 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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"God grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
Aside the fact that it's in the form of a prayer, this statement is nothing short of an elegant example of what results from a reality-oriented metaphysical premise. The fact that the Alchoholics Anonymous association is often credited for the fame of such an adage, is rather unsurprising. Far too many spend their lives in futile rebellion against what they cannot change, and -failing to recognize the difference between the two- in blind resignment of what they can change. This implies a conflict - of mind and reality; of epistemology and [actual] metaphysics. I will leave it to the rest of you thinkers to investigate and discover the philosophical roots for such disastrous attitudes, and in contrast, the philosophical roots for such harmonious attitudes.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Fospher
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Is that quote from the Bible? Where's it from?
What does it mean by 'things we cannot change'? Is it talking about the paranormal, such as bringing back the dead, flying like a bird and so forth? If you understand the concept that it talks about, please elaborate.
I sort-of know what you mean, but sometimes I'll just play devil's advocate for now.
"I've told you that the true art of a warrior is to balance terror and wonder" - Carlos Castaneda (Don Juan).
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Re: The Proper Metaphysical Attitude [Re: Fospher]
#5411055 - 03/17/06 01:10 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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The founders of AAA created the passage to help people learn to manage their lives more realistically.
It can be applied universally by anyone though.
I would agree with your examples of things we realistically know we can not change, like become Asian if we are Caucasian or remove a crime from the past off a police record.
It's an empowering passage. 
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Fospher
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: like become Asian if we are Caucasian or remove a crime from the past off a police record.
Are those the supposed examples of the unaccomplishable? Baby, give me enough $$$ and I'll rob more banks than Jonn Dillinger, have yellow skin, and with the right bought connections walk out scot free.
Alice: "Dont you mean impossible?" Doorknob: "No, you heard me, I said improbable! Nothing's impossible!"
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MushmanTheManic
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Far too many spend their lives in futile rebellion against what they cannot change
How do we determine whether something can or cannot be changed?
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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To mush and fospher-take note of the bolds in the passage.
"God grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
I must say I shoot for the stars myself and believe where there is a will there is a way like you both are suggesting.
Consider, this passage was made for people with weak wills and is taking them through baby steps. Just saying no to a drink takes everything they have and even still they may not have the strength of will to overcome it.
If your will power and ability to use it already kicks ass then, yeah, fucken move some proverbial mountains baby! wooooot!
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Silversoul
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: The founders of AAA created the passage to help people learn to manage their lives more realistically.
Wow, I never thought of it that way. I just thought of them as a company to call if my car breaks down.
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BlueCoyote
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Hehe, yes, that statement above is for the weak,  But why should someone teach them, that there are things they can not change ? Fear from someone about changes ?
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fireworks_god
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Re: The Proper Metaphysical Attitude [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5412176 - 03/17/06 10:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: But why should someone teach them, that there are things they can not change ? Fear from someone about changes ?
You aren't looking at it through the proper terms/point of view/etc.
It is in regards to one's present experience of life. If there is some goal that one is working towards, one is free to do everything that is necessary in the moment towards that goal. However, if the situation prevents any change from being produced in the moment, then it is to be accepted as such and to not allow one's state of being to be diminished by agonizing over it.
Consider that I or yourself am presently incarcerated, pending a parole hearing. As I or you sit in our jail cell, we can use the oppurtunity to prepare our presentation on why it is that we should be set free. Once we have done so, we must still remain in prison until our oppurtunity to attempt to change our situation is available. Thus, we must put it out of mind and being and continue to exist, without struggle, within our present situation.
Its sort of like that. It isn't a statement that suggests that change is impossible, but that, obviously, reality dictates that such change has restrictions and limitations set by time, space, and other factors that result. If there is nothing within our present moment that can be done to produce a desired change, then it should not effect our emotional being. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: The Proper Metaphysical Attitude [Re: fireworks_god]
#5412190 - 03/17/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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One more note, to continue that post, is that it is not surprising that such a concept would be represented by a phrase employed by a group that is committed to assisting individuals break free of addiction, as it naturally prevents mental addiction from springing forth - if one prefers to act or experience a certain aspect of reality, then one can exercise their power to do so. If, however, something prevents such from occuring within the moment, then we do not concern our thoughts or emotions with it. Thus, no striving to obtain something that cannot be fufilled, therefore, no addiction. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Re: The Proper Metaphysical Attitude [Re: Silversoul]
#5412271 - 03/17/06 11:05 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: The founders of AAA created the passage to help people learn to manage their lives more realistically.
Wow, I never thought of it that way. I just thought of them as a company to call if my car breaks down.

Yes Triple A wants you to accept it when your car breaks down on the way the concert. They want you to know that all is not lost though, for you can call a friend or taxi to take you. They want you to be at peace, with the $600 repair bill. 
I heard some group named Alcoholics Anonymous adopted their philosophy as well. 

-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: The Proper Metaphysical Attitude [Re: fireworks_god]
#5412722 - 03/17/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yep, if it is meant something like 'accept the past/present borders, so you can see what has to be mastered or overcome in the present/future', then I would agree. Perhaps sometimes, it is good to recognize the present borders to make a concept how to break free from them in the future. Or learning from the past to develop a concept for the future, that has its grip and drive in the present. That is, how I can understand this
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


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First of all, the passage was not created by the founders of AA. It was the theologian Reinhold Niebuhr who is to be credited for the statement. The founders of AA simply made it more well-known.
To Fospher and Mushman who ask for examples: I must accept the fact that I have a ringing in my ear, which is likely tinnitus. But I can change my own attitude in how I deal with it, and seek out treatments [there is no cure as of yet].
I must accept the fact that I have arthritis, and that my right index finger is 56% disabled. But I can change the amount of arthritis-pain I deal with, and simply accept the fact that my finger is disabled - short of cutting it off like some savage.
I can only accept the fact that I've stepped in my dog's droppings, and cannot change the fact that it happened. But I can change my intellectual grasp of the situation for the better, and diffuse the situation rationally rather than irrationally getting angry and wishing that it didn't happen.
I have to accept the fact that I must expend [often unpleasant] effort to survive successfully, productively and in general excellence. But I can accept this for the fact that such unpleasantness or expended efforts are infinitely small prices to pay compared to the results of laziness, immobilization, and unproductivity, and thus change my attitude for the better.
I must accept the fact that I cannot change the Law of Causality or any of Mother Nature's immutable laws by wishing, crying, begging or stamping my foot. But I can realize that I must obey nature in order to command it.
..And so on, and so forth.
Herr Apfelstrudel: Hehe, yes, that statement above is for the weak
Perhaps those who need to verbally reiterate it on a constant basis, have a weaker will than others. But the fact is, the very premise which the statement elucidates, holds true for ALL people - not just "the weak".
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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MushmanTheManic
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How do we determine whether something can or cannot be changed?
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BlueCoyote
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If I may: must accept the fact that I have a ringing in my ear, which is likely tinnitus. But I can change my own attitude in how I deal with it, and seek out treatments [there is no cure as of yet]. You can change that, by living a healthy style and, perhaps giving impulses (giving money, or personal effort to researches) to the scientific research of it.
I must accept the fact that I have arthritis, and that my right index finger is 56% disabled. But I can change the amount of arthritis-pain I deal with, and simply accept the fact that my finger is disabled - short of cutting it off like some savage. Same here, donations (or even personal effort in scientistic research) can speed up the developement of a cure.
I can only accept the fact that I've stepped in my dog's droppings, and cannot change the fact that it happened. But I can change my intellectual grasp of the situation for the better, and diffuse the situation rationally rather than irrationally getting angry and wishing that it didn't happen. Letting your dog not shit into your garden lets you easily evade such problems in the future 
I have to accept the fact that I must expend [often unpleasant] effort to survive successfully, productively and in general excellence. But I can accept this for the fact that such unpleasantness or expended efforts are infinitely small prices to pay compared to the results of laziness, immobilization, and unproductivity, and thus change my attitude for the better. There are joyful means of living that don't hurt another person.
I must accept the fact that I cannot change the Law of Causality or any of Mother Nature's immutable laws by wishing, crying, begging or stamping my foot. But I can realize that I must obey nature in order to command it. Hehe, not by wishing, crying, begging or stamping (even they are valuable emotional parts of 'the change'), unless you are pope, dictator or king
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/18/06 12:06 AM)
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Silversoul
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: How do we determine whether something can or cannot be changed?
I think that's why this is a prayer, and not simply a statement of belief. It asks for the grace of God to help determine such things, because there is no purely logical method to determine such things for sure.
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SkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The Proper Metaphysical Attitude [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5415219 - 03/18/06 06:17 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You can change that, by living a healthy style and, perhaps giving impulses (giving money, or personal effort to researches) to the scientific research of it.
I do live quite a healthy lifestyle. I don't even smoke or drink, for petes sake. Anyway, you are simply reiterating more or less what my point is. That there are things we must accept, and things that we can change.
There are joyful means of living that don't hurt another person.
?!
Hehe, not by wishing, crying, begging or stamping (even they are valuable emotional parts of 'the change'), unless you are pope, dictator or king
Unintelligible. Same response as above.
Mushman:
How do we determine whether something can or cannot be changed?
Well, one may have to actually think. One may have to review all current possible courses of action under the if-then standard: If they want to survive, then..
Take for instance, something that has already happened. We cannot change such, but we can change how we assess the situation, and learn how to prevent such a situation again, if possible.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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BlueCoyote
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Someone at least does need the want for a change, unless that happens, change is futile. Why change the past ? That is something I would agree, if it wouldn't be achieved by other means, like you said, changing ones view upon it.
BUT, I won't run against a pole on the street, just because I cant accept or immediately change that it exists or something, if you mean that.
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