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Invisible40oz
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Registered: 01/19/01
Posts: 30,119
Loc: Sandy Eggo. Ca.
Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5406410 - 03/16/06 12:43 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
have the raves that still happen today evolved past 1997 in their creativity? not at all.




has the superbowl evolved into anything more
(or less) than just the superbowl?

or how about mardi gras?

or how about new years eve?

or how about holloween?


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:pacman: - - - -  :pill: :mushroom2: :pill2: :mushroom2: :regularshroom: :mushroomgrow: :pill: :pill2: :mushroom2: :poison:

:sun::heart::sun:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
"your avatar is dirty."


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InvisibleBoom
just a tester
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Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 11,252
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: 40oz]
    #5406412 - 03/16/06 12:43 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Holloween evolved into Halloween


:grin:


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InvisibleFerris
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Posts: 11,529
Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? *DELETED* [Re: Boom]
    #5406417 - 03/16/06 12:45 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Ferris

Reason for deletion: .



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Discuss Politics


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Invisible40oz
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Registered: 01/19/01
Posts: 30,119
Loc: Sandy Eggo. Ca.
Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5406419 - 03/16/06 12:46 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
are we speaking of the fresh cultural movement that happened in the 80s and 90s or the shell of this cultural movement that happens today? what "party" are you referring to?




name a few, if not just one, (positive) cultural movement
that have survived ANY test of time?


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:pacman: - - - -  :pill: :mushroom2: :pill2: :mushroom2: :regularshroom: :mushroomgrow: :pill: :pill2: :mushroom2: :poison:

:sun::heart::sun:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
"your avatar is dirty."


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OfflineTrancedShroom
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: Ferris]
    #5406421 - 03/16/06 12:47 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Good one BooooM!


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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: 40oz]
    #5406470 - 03/16/06 12:55 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

name a few, if not just one, (positive) cultural movement
that have survived ANY test of time?




It is not my contention to say that the rave scene was meant to last, rather, it is my contention that the rave scene is pretty much dead.

movements are called movements for a reason. they develop from one center and expand outward until the force of this movement dwindles and dwindles into irrevelency much like a pebble dropped into a pond.

the so-called rave movement occurred in the late 1980s through the late 1990s. we are in a new decade now and have been for nearly seven years.


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InvisibleaNeway2sayHooray
Cresley Wusher
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5406492 - 03/16/06 12:58 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe you should take a step back and try and see why you think the partys now suck.

Maybe its you and not the partys,maybe your older,maybe your attitude has changed.


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Mad_Larkin said:  Death is just a thang.
:clementine:
MrJellineck said:  Profits, prophets. That's all you jews think about.
sheekle said: life is drugs... and music... and cat... :snowman:


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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: TrancedShroom]
    #5406501 - 03/16/06 12:59 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

raves are as dead as boy bands unfortunately.


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InvisibleaNeway2sayHooray
Cresley Wusher
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: buckwheat]
    #5406510 - 03/16/06 01:02 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Other countrys scenes are getting bigger.

Raves are not gone.Maybe your large illegal partys are.But there are still tons of open air partsy,warehouse partys and club partys to attend.

Why does everyone think its dead.

Jaded :crankey: hehehe


--------------------
Mad_Larkin said:  Death is just a thang.
:clementine:
MrJellineck said:  Profits, prophets. That's all you jews think about.
sheekle said: life is drugs... and music... and cat... :snowman:


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: aNeway2sayHooray]
    #5406513 - 03/16/06 01:02 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

I still go out - in fact, I probably go out more than I did then. I believe the current "rave" scene to be irrevelent and stale because it is just that - irrelevent and stale. See, if you look at the history of the scene there was a steady progression and evolution of idea and style. That progression pretty much stopped in 1997 or so. There is nothing fresh and new happening in today's scene.

I would be more than open to the scene if something creative was going down. That is what I am interested in. But that is not the case and so I have moved on to other movements.

he not busy being born
Is busy dying.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: aNeway2sayHooray]
    #5406526 - 03/16/06 01:05 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Other countrys scenes are getting bigger.





*mainstream


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Invisible40oz
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5406534 - 03/16/06 01:07 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

have you taken into ANY account that
the GOVERNMENT had a HUGE part in killing
the (u.s) rave 'movement' &
not the people OF the movement??


--------------------
:pacman: - - - -  :pill: :mushroom2: :pill2: :mushroom2: :regularshroom: :mushroomgrow: :pill: :pill2: :mushroom2: :poison:

:sun::heart::sun:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
"your avatar is dirty."


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InvisibleaNeway2sayHooray
Cresley Wusher
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5406549 - 03/16/06 01:11 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Who gives a shit if its mainstream or not.

Sure allot of mainsream music sucks.Big trance names like tiesto and what not=shit.But just because somthing is popular doesnt mean it is cookie cutter mainstream.

That is a shitty answer to my comment for sure.There are plenty of "underground" partys out there,in the us and other countrys.


--------------------
Mad_Larkin said:  Death is just a thang.
:clementine:
MrJellineck said:  Profits, prophets. That's all you jews think about.
sheekle said: life is drugs... and music... and cat... :snowman:


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: 40oz]
    #5406566 - 03/16/06 01:15 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

The rave scene fell apart due to many reasons, but such reasons are irrevelent to the general opinion that the rave scene is no-more. The US government also cracked down on the youth movement of the 1960s, but that doesnt mean I'm going to pretend it's 1967 - the '60s are long gone for a myriad of reasons and we can all agree on that.

I am going to live in my own time.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: aNeway2sayHooray]
    #5406597 - 03/16/06 01:22 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Who gives a shit if its mainstream or not.




The rave, once novel and forward-thinking, has now become stagnant and been sucked into the Spectacle. And as such, is not longer movement or irrevelent. It's just the Superbowl or a drunken mardi gras party (40oz sure thinks they're all the same - you know, he's right - today's rave scene = drunken superbowl party).


that doesnt seem like a new way to say hooray to me. that seems like nostalgia for the old way to say hooray.


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OfflineTrancedShroom
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5406604 - 03/16/06 01:23 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

People I'm begging you, help me with my rating...make it go up.


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Edited by TrancedShroom (03/16/06 01:24 AM)


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Invisible40oz
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Registered: 01/19/01
Posts: 30,119
Loc: Sandy Eggo. Ca.
Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5406610 - 03/16/06 01:25 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

>it is my contention that the rave scene is pretty much dead

the scene may be dead wheverever you are,
but it sure as hell isnt dead here. :shrug:


--------------------
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:sun::heart::sun:

tiny_rabid_birds said:
"your avatar is dirty."


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5406615 - 03/16/06 01:27 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

rave is dead

Quote:

?How ?long you want to discuss why I feel that way is up to you.? Fisher runs the production company Ultraworld. He has been to jail for throwing raves, has personally met with officials from the city of Baltimore to gain the right to continue throwing raves and, in addition to throwing the best raves on the East Coast throughout the mid-?90s, he threw the first I frequented. These were spectacles of lasers, acid house, breaks and hundreds, sometimes thousands, of kids filling warehouse spaces and industrial parks to meet their rave families, perhaps pop a pill or two and dance their kinetic dances. Fisher has opened a club, Sonar, in Baltimore, and says he has no plans to throw a rave again.

Some told me in ?95 when I started going to parties that rave was dead. These were people who had been going for a few months or a few years longer than myself, folks who lamented large flyers and $15, $20, $25 ticket prices. But who were they to piss on my epiphanies? One day I was a frat boy with the full cultural baggage of the breed - shamefully tolerant of homophobic jokes and misogyny, considered dancing a mating ritual never to exceed an energetic shuffle - and almost as quickly as the next, I was a raver, hopping weekend busses or joining car caravans to seek out fantastic, relatively secret parties full of like-minded people who were united in their appreciation of the experience and the sound. It was the sound of tomorrow, these squelchy, alien acid lines and pummeling barrages of bass rising through the smoke and dust. It was the sound of a brighter future, a time and place to come when people would know the physical and spiritual joys of dancing and there would be a mass understanding that being excellent to one another was really where it was at.

Right around the time that my life was being irrevocably altered by the rave scene?s potent combination of ideology and chemicals, prominent journalist Simon Reynolds was working on an essay entitled ?Rave Culture: Living Dream or Living Death.? Eventually published in the ?97 anthology The Clubcultures Reader, the piece begins with the acknowledgement that others are saying, ?Rave is dead.? Reynolds convincingly navigates a perceived dichotomy: On one hand, the business of rave was better than ever, thanks to post-rave sub-genres landing on the UK pop charts and the mass embrace of the weekender/ Ecstasy lifestyle. ?But as for the rave myth, the ideal of love, peace, unity and positivity? he wrote, ?that?s been smelting funny for quite awhile.?
According to Reynolds, ?Rave culture has never really been about altering reality, merely exempting yourself from it for a little while.? But this wasn?t true for me, and perhaps it wasn?t true for you either. There were ideas at play in the rave scene - not just drugged kids. Here was the paradigm of the concert flipped on ear: The star wasn?t the DJ - not then, at least - but the crowd, the lighting, the pills, the physical space of the party itself. You didn?t go to a party to stare at a musician. If you wanted passive entertainment, you went to a rock show. If you wanted to immerse yourself in entertainment, to take an active role in your own good time, you went to a rave.

?With E, the full-on raver lifestyle means Literally falling in love every weekend, then (with the inevitable mid- week crash) having your heart broken. Millions of kids across Europe are still riding this emotional roller coaster. Always looking ahead to their next tryst with E, dying to gush, addicted to love, in love with ... nothing.?

?Nothing?? Even as Reynolds was using clinical, academic precision to spell out the nothingness of rave, it was changing my life, much the way I suspect it changed Reynolds? a few years earlier. When I called the author to ask him about the essay, he laughed, ?That was written from a point of crisis of confidence, that thing that people go through after a couple of years when they start to have doubts that maybe it?s not as exciting as it appears to be, and, even if it is, where is it all Leading?? And he admitted what I suspected: ?When I got into it in ?91, there were loads of people saying it was dead, then too.?

Are raves somehow less culturally vital then they were a few years ago, 10 years ago or than they were in 1986 in England? Does the commodification of a culture - the music being sold on car commercials, the fashion being sold at every mall in America for awhile (and now not even cool enough for that), even the pills being pimped at frat houses and yuppie soirees across the U.S. somehow erode the core experience? Or is passing that judgment just another version jaded burnouts telling Reynolds he had missed boat by ?91? I joined the NYC-Raves Internet mailing list, asked for a response from anyone who had go to their first party in the past six months or so had what they would call a ?spiritual,? ?enlightening? or ?life-changing? experience. As the day went on, I was surprised by the complete lack of traffic received only a couple of mocking replies and deafening silence. One post, from the list?s moderator was particularly snarky: ?I think you?re about years too late.? The irony of Reynolds? observation is that today, it seems he got it backwards. The ideal of rave - peace, love, unity and respect to simple DIY to others - live on in truly underground events and new rave converts and even in other parties, such as Burning Man. But the business spoke to more than 30 key players from the scene - DJs, promoters, agents, record shop owner label managers and publicists from around the country - and this much is clear: The business of rave is crashing like a post-binge tweaker. The rave and club scenes have long held a narcissistic sort of pride in straddling the line between mainstream and underground, happy to sell street cred to any and every willing consumer. But when it comes to organizing as an industry, "electronica" is in the dark ages. Mainstream music has SoundScan to chart album sales and Pollstar to detail the success of concerts and tours - services that raves and clubs do not utilize, certainly not with 12-inches and one-offs. According to a source close to the major vinyl outlets in the U.S., sales were down about a quarter in 2001 from their 2000 peak. This year, sales will finish down about a third from that 2000 mark. This is a greater decline than the slowing of he music industry at large, which is down about 20 percent over the same period. Across the pond, Record Industry, by far Europe?s largest presser of vinyl, has seen orders drop by 20 percent this ear from last.

Two of the biggest and best clubs - New York?s Twilo and Washington, D.C.?s Buzz - have closed and at press time, Spundae in Los Angeles had just suffered a huge raid, leaving its future in some doubt. Attendance at big nightclubs is down across the board in the U.S. and the UK. According to international nightlife research group Mintel, nightclub and discotheque admissions in the UK grew steadily throughout the ?90s til ?98, when it took its first downturn, dropping steadily each year since. Two of the UK?s larger clubs, Cream and Ministry, have closed, and a third, Gatecrasher, has gone from a weekly event to a monthly. Ministry?s self-titled magazine - at one point the top-selling title in British clubland - has folded. Once blue-chip record labels have closed their doors or been relegated to the margins. In 2001, Ministry of Sound coughed up a substantial sum to sign electro up-and-comers Fischerspooner; now the label has released their stateside employees (making them all sign confidentiality agreements) and auctioned off Fischerspooner to a major label. Strictly Rhythm - once one of the most respected labels in the game - closed its doors this year as well. Steve Lau is president of Kinetic Records, the label that released trance ?superstar DJ? Sasha?s under-performing artist album, Airdrawndagger, earlier this year. Kinetic recently laid off all but a bare-bones staff. ?It?s a number of factors,? says Lau of the dance music industry?s decline. ?There?s the economy, of course. And I think the market was completely over- saturated with DJ mix compilations. Add to that I think fans of electronic music are more technologically savvy, more likely to download music, than fans of other music. Also, on some level, I think everyone realizes that he or she could be a DJ. Part of the mystery behind the whole thing evaporated.?

At the core of all of these industry developments is a feeder system of enthusiastic new customers that is grinding to a halt. Raves are not happening with the same frequency they once did, not by a long shot. ?The rave scene is probably a quarter of what it was this time two years ago,? says Scott Henry, the promoter of now-closed D.C. club Buzz and a mainstay in the Baltimore-D.C. scene. ?I judge that on calls my agent gets about bookings - not just me, but DJs across the line.? Natalie Perez, a booking agent at PAM (a DJ management company that includes Paul van Dyk and DJ Icey on its roster) concurs, ?Between now and this time last year, two years ago, we?re having to be more aggressive in our tactics. We lower prices when needed. We?ve had to approach promoters more than we have in the past. The danger is that fewer raves becomes its own prophecy. ?You used to be able to go to like, Charlotte, NC, and there would be two raves on the same night,? says Henry. ?Now you?re lucky if you can find one in the Southeast. Out of sight, out of mind? I don?t know. When raves are few and far between, there is less to rally behind.?
Sociology says we can think about subcultures cyclically. ?Kids take the cultural products that are out there and they tweak them, misuse them,? says David Grazian, a sociology professor at the University of Pennsylvania who specializes in the study of pop culture and its subcultures. ?The easiest example to teach is how kids would rip holes in their jeans in the 1980s in order to create a new subculture style. Then what happens? Jean manufacturers look at what kids are doing and they start mass marketing jeans that already have holes in them. As the cycle moves on, clearly it?s companies that are winning. They are constantly able to make more profits by hunting down the cool.?

I called Capitol Records, the major label that turned Dirty Vegas? ?Days Go By? into a hit by placing the song in a Mitsubishi car commercial. They were happy to talk to me because they?re busy trying to repeat the formula: At press time, Mitsubishi was launching a new tine of cars with 60-second TV spots, featuring the dreamy electronica of the song ?Breathe? by another Capitol act, Telepopmusik. Tel6popmusik?s debut album, Genetic World, saw an immediate spike in sales, up 30 percent the first week, up another 76 percent the next. As Tripp DuBois from Capitol?s marketing department explained, Telepopmusik?s positioning was the result of the careful cultivation of cool.

?We micro-marketed the record,? says DuBois. ?With Tetepopmusik, we did CD samplers and stickers. Our street teams worked the raves. It?s that base we built and developed that allows us to get to the next step of exposure from Mitsubishi. When we go to these advertising agencies, the band has to mean something. They have to say something.

If it?s the right thing, the new hip thing, then [these agencies] want to be part of the action as well. It?s our job to get to that base so we can transition to the broader marker.?

As DuBois spoke, I was daydreaming about how foreign raves seemed to me when I first went. There was no techno on commercials. There was no one handing out marketing materials, as best as I can recall, unless you count flyers for other parties. ?We really nailed the game plan,? says DuBois. ?Mitsubishi kicked in and now we?re transitioning. We?re going to Modern Rock on Nov. 19 and Top 40 on Jan. 21. We?re shooting a video and wilt ship another 50,000 units.? The big picture is that it seems rave - regardless of (or in addition to) a sagging economy and a crackdown by authorities - was in the process of down-cycling, subculturally, on its own. As techno DJ Richie Hawtin says, recalling his early days in the scene, ?There was a sense of belonging to a group of people who had found common interests and united to do something a little different, rather than a group of people who had been marketed to.? Or as U.S. rave originator Frankie Bones succinctly puts it, ?I don?t think 14- or 15-year-olds today think rave is the cool thing to do anymore.? One look at the regional rave e-mail lists - once the lifeblood of information for a burgeoning grassroots scene - bears out this point. Traffic in all the major regions grew steadily through the end of 2000, then began a freefall. Sometime around early 2001, MW-raves, Mountain-raves, NYC-raves and SF-raves all took a dive. In many instances, traffic steadily fell to pre-?96 numbers; in July, MW-raves had its lowest volume since October 1993. In other words, people were rapidly losing interest in raves at the same time that the Feds were making their first big bust with ?Disco? Donnie Estopinal in New Orleans. As much as the Feds might like to congratulate themselves, they didn?t kill the scene. We managed that on our own.

Folks are quick to point fingers now. Nowhere is the animosity more present than in the relationship between promoters and superstar DJs. ?The agents and the big-name DJs refused to give the promoters of the one-off events any breathing room on their fees,? says Fisher, ?to the point where the big promoters couldn?t make money. Over the last three years I subsidized Paul van Dyk to play in D.C. while I sweat my ass off and lost money. I subsidized Boy George while I worked my ass off and lost money. The dance music scene refused to respect individual markets for what they were. I don?t give a SCHIT.COM if you can draw 40,000 people in LA. In Baltimore and D.C., you can?t. Promoters and some big-name DJs had no respect for that. They?d tell you, ?Well, I?d rather not play.??
But if you talk to the agents, it?s the promoters who are greedy. ?One of two people gets the money,? says Gerry Gerrard, the agent of luminaries including Paul Oakenfold, the Prodigy and the Chemical Brothers. ?The promoter or the DJ. My job is to make sure the DJ gets his fair share.? ?It sucks what?s happening right now,? says Kurt Eckes, from Milwaukee?s DropBass Network, the promoters behind the Midwest?s Further festivals. ?But it?s also sweet revenge. I can still do underground events and keep my ball rolling. But at least all these DJs counting on these $10,000 nights aren?t getting them anymore.?

So here we are, the bitter, the jaded, the disappointed: the rave scene. Some people were and are true to the scene, to the music. Others just wanted to profit, and many, probably, sought the best of both worlds. ?I?ve been doing this for years now,? said Scott Richmond, one of the owners of Satellite Records, one of the top vinyl outlets in New York, during a heated conversation about money corrupting the art that was the rave scene. ?Don?t I have a right to make a living!?? And it?s true, we all have the right to make a living. But that right was never guaranteed from the rave scene. Rave, at its origins, was just a couple of turntables, some good records and people who wanted to dance. The rave scene today is Shel Silverstein?s Giving Tree. It gave its music, its fashion, its coolness. Now who wilt sit with its lonely stump of a DIY ethic when there is no more money to make? Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Some 12,13 years ago, a Bush was in office, our economy was tanking, and the drums of war with Iraq were the perfect backdrop for rave to flourish. Today, history has eerily repeated itself. It won?t be rave that benefits from all that energy of dissent, though, but rather whatever is next. Subcultures never die; they just fade into the cultural detritus from which new art forms grow. The hippies didn?t last forever, neither did disco or punk. Yet key elements from these subcultures came together and fostered techno-drenched outlaw parties. One of the few e-mail lists I found with increasing membership was Digital Hell, a mailing list for desktop maestros. ?The dance floors may be thinning,? says Wally Winfrey. list moderator. ?But the bedrooms are full of activity. I reckon we?ll see the fruition of that in the next few years.? There are mixed emotions at the wake. Some embrace denial, pointing to the one-offs that, white dwindling, will lumber on for a time; there is still money to be made, after all. Others offer up the occasional breakout chart hits, the Mobys, the Dirty Vegases, as if that has anything to do with rave. The very word itself has become an unsanitary term, four letters that embody everything that was corporate and drug-addled and exploited about a musical and cultural movement. I?m talking to Sasson Perry of Bay Area-based Coolworld promotions, who has thrown a series of parties that have drawn in excess of 15,000 people. And every time I ask him about raves, he stops the conversation and, politely but firmly, explains to me that he promotes ?dance music festivals.? Henry recalls that when Fox News did an ?expose? on his club - sneaking in some cameras and splashing drug use on the evening news - ?they just kept using that word over and over again, enunciating it each time. Do you know what a rave is? This is a rave. Your kids might be going to raves.?
So let us spare the false spin of positivity and go out like we came in, with dignity. The two great house DJs Mark Farina and Derrick Carter were roommates in Chicago in the late ?80s and early ?90s, throwing parties before they were called raves, before anyone knew how they were suppose to dress or what PLUR meant. ?We were playing underground, Detroit, Chicago track-y minimal s to maybe 200 people,? says Farina. ?You were do a party to provide better music, do a better venue than the next guy. It was competitive like that a opposed to ?I?m gonna do bank on this party.?? ?You could rent someone?s loft for the night for tike, $300,? remembers Carter. ?if you knew someone, maybe a cat?s a little low on their re One-hundred-fifty dollars, $200 for the sound system, cover the kegs and everyone gets 50 bucks lunch money or whatever. ?Cause SCHIT.COM! I got al records sitting in my house. I don?t eat properly I Look stupid cause I can?t afford good clothes, I got these hot- ass records. SCHIT.COM! These records gonna get heard. I?m gonna have a party and play good records and laugh and see people we like it?ll be cool. That was all right. It was enough.? It was enough. Savor your memories as we a moment of silence for rave, a glowstick poured for our homies onto the cold concrete of a de warehouse floor. Perhaps it will be enough a some other way, in some time to be. And the dance will begin anew.





I think that was written in 2003.


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: 40oz]
    #5406622 - 03/16/06 01:29 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

you're in southern california? I'm originally from LA and I know from personal experience that it's just as dead there, too. Anything original happening? Nope.


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InvisibleBurke Dennings
baby merchant

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 81,641
Re: ArE rAvEs DeAd? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5406650 - 03/16/06 01:36 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

It's all relative, I'm thinking.  To people like 40 who started going to parties rather recently, the "scene" might seem very much alive. 

I know when I first started going in 1996, I thought it was amazing, but there were people who had been involved since 1992 who were bemoaning the Death of the Rave even back then.  But to me, it was very new and alive. 

After watching the scene flounder into the early 2000's, I'd had enough and don't have the desire to ever go again.  But that's just me.  :shrug:


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