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daimyo
Monticello

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Why Do Some Dislike Firearms?
#5404250 - 03/15/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I constantly ask myself why there are some who dislike firearms. Sometimes I think it is an ignorance of the inherent neutrality of the tool, or a prior negative experience(losing a family member to gun violence). But, more often that not, I feel it stems from a fear of death. Those who are insecure about there own mortality just don't like things that can easily bring them to their last breath.
What are your thoughts?
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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gluke bastid
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5404369 - 03/15/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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As someone who doesn't like firearms (but has no interest in limiting others who do), I don't think it is a fear of death. I am willing to wager that a lot of people who own firearms fear death just as much as people who don't. I don't think that's the root of it, especially because I believe that my relative fearlessness of death actually ties in quite strongly with the fact that I don't own a gun. I don't feel that need to have a killing weapon to protect myself. If death is coming for me, then so be it. I'd rather not have the bother of owning a gun, because thats not who I am. You shouldn't assume that just because someone isn't into guns that means they are scared of something you are not.
My personal revulsion towards guns must stem from the ignorance of the inherent neutrality of the gun, because I am ignorant of a gun's neutrality. To me they are not neutral, as I stated in another thread. I'll quote myself:
Quote:
gluke bastid said: labelling a gun as merely a tool is not accurate. A gun is a tool for violence, i.e. shooting projectiles. Saying that a gun doesn't have an inherent violent nature is like saying that a suitcase doesn't have an inherent storage nature. Violence is what a gun is designed for, as storage is what a suitcase is designed for...and both do a damned good job. If someone wants to store things, then they are going to be able to do this more effectively with a suitcase. If someone wants to go on a murderous rampage, then they are going to be able to do this more effectively with a gun.
This is by no means a condemnation of the private ownership of guns. However, when guns are around things are more dangerous because it puts an increased capacity for violence into the hands of the people who own them. This seems obvious to someone like me who can't really stand being in the same room as a gun...to me everyone who owns a gun just seems no different from a cop, really. Although now and then I'll meet a cop who seems allright, they all make me nervous.
I'm getting off track...my point is simply that while a gun is a tool it is a tool of violence, and just as the world is threatened by a particular type of violence because nuclear bombs exist, the world is threatened by a particular type of violence everytime someone owns a gun.
I definitely stand by this argument and would like to see where anyone's disagreements with it are.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5404381 - 03/15/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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1. guns are weapons. 2. weapons hurt people. 3. hurting people is bad. 4. therefore guns are bad.
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shriek
*********

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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5404440 - 03/15/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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the things i dislike most about guns is that they doesnt leave you a chance to fight against them if they are in the hands of wrong people who wants to use it as a tool to do crimes. if someone wants to fistfight with you you have a chance of fighting back, a knife you have a better chance, if someone shoots at you you are likely to die in a heartbeat. guns are however useful to hunt animals for meat or can be useful if you crash into a animal with a car and hurts it bad and end its life quikly to take an example. also i can see how target shoorting can be fun even tho i have no intrest in shooting at targest.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5404467 - 03/15/06 04:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Its a device with the potential to cause tremendous amounts of suffering.
What are your thoughts?
I dunno... I'm on LSD.
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Silversoul
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5404504 - 03/15/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: 1. guns are weapons. 2. weapons hurt people. 3. hurting people is bad. 4. therefore guns are bad.
True, but I do find it strange that many who dislike guns happen to be fascinated with other weapons such as swords. I suppose that's because swords are associated with honor and chivalry and the like, whereas any lowlife can be proficient with a gun. Interestingly enough, such an attitude goes back all the way to the beginning of guns, and is the reason why the Catholic church condemned guns at one point.
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wilshire
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: shriek]
#5404570 - 03/15/06 05:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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the things i dislike most about guns is that they doesnt leave you a chance to fight against them if they are in the hands of wrong people who wants to use it as a tool to do crimes.
they also have great defensive use for people who cannot defend themselves well with their hands and feet, like the elderly and disabled.
The Armed Citizen
compiles a database of news reports of people using firearms in self defense. there are tons of them. they don't ever get past the local news.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5405260 - 03/15/06 07:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
daimyo said: I constantly ask myself why there are some who dislike firearms. Sometimes I think it is an ignorance of the inherent neutrality of the tool, or a prior negative experience(losing a family member to gun violence). But, more often that not, I feel it stems from a fear of death. Those who are insecure about there own mortality just don't like things that can easily bring them to their last breath.
What are your thoughts?
Thats backwards.... Dont you think that people who own and handle guns are usually the ones who are afraid of death? Isnt it the main rhetorical response from the NRA to harp on about protecting their families lives.
Why would you need a gun if you were not afraid of death?
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daimyo
Monticello

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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5405285 - 03/15/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: Thats backwards.... Dont you think that people who own and handle guns are usually the ones who are afraid of death?
I'm sure there is a good percentage of them. I think they fear attack more than death though.
Quote:
psilocyberin said: Why would you need a gun if you were not afraid of death?
Honor, protection, hobby, reasons are limitless. Not fearing death does not equate to being willing to go IMO.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5405349 - 03/15/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I know a few people who collect, and rarely shoot guns.... rich guys with nothing better to spend their money on. It is truly a harmless hobby, and I can understand the beauty and can appreciate guns, but people who carry them around (thugs, cops) usually become quite attached to them, and it becomes an extension of themselves physically and mentally.
btw, wtf does honor have to do with owning a gun?
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daimyo
Monticello

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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5405401 - 03/15/06 07:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: btw, wtf does honor have to do with owning a gun?
When someone gets out of line, and gets shot, they learn real quick that honor is important in all situations.
Firearms are also signs of honor to some(dare I say, many). You grow up in certain places without the protection of a firearm, and there is no honor for you inside the community. Not saying that's everywhere, as I know it's not.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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porcupine
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5405452 - 03/15/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i think some people dislike them because they cause a lot of accidents. if you live in a household that has a gun your chances of getting shot rise several fold.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: porcupine]
#5406304 - 03/15/06 10:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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kind of like if you live with a nympho playboy bunny your chances of being rode reverse cowgirl increase?
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5406366 - 03/15/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
daimyo said: Those who are insecure about there own mortality just don't like things that can easily bring them to their last breath.

Being "secure" in one's own mortality is a *little* different than wanting to live and blindly trusting someone elses potential (mis)judgement with a potential lethal weapon - in a momentary situation....
If you were "secure" in your mortality, does that mean that you would be more apt to choose to stay in the path of a tornado - as opposed to someone who was not secure in his/her own mortality...?

"Every breath brings me one less to my last...." --Dream Theater
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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daimyo
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#5407187 - 03/16/06 06:46 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said: If you were "secure" in your mortality, does that mean that you would be more apt to choose to stay in the path of a tornado - as opposed to someone who was not secure in his/her own mortality...?
I think equating a tornado to a person carrying a firearm is off. Equating it to living in tornado alley, or New Orleans, would be a better analogy IMO. The owner is not a tornado until they begin shooting in an uncontrolled manner, thus unleashing the potential wrath.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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silver22
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5407452 - 03/16/06 09:04 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I's say the majority of people don't have a problem with firearms--it's the people who possess them and don't respect them the dislike of firearms arises.
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daimyo
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: silver22]
#5407812 - 03/16/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Don't want to blame the offenders, so firearms get shit on?
What do you think causes people to do this? Media influence? Political party ideals? Failure to think it through?
For those who oppose fireamrs, do you think someone that uses a firearm during the commision of a crime wouldn't do it if the gun wasn't available? Or would they just find something else?
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5408487 - 03/16/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: 1. guns are weapons. 2. weapons hurt people. 3. hurting people is bad. 4. therefore guns are bad.
I think it is a safe bet that this reasoning isn't going to be included in a logic textbook any time soon. Let us question it with considerable doubt.
Quote:
1. guns are weapons
Guns exist as physical objects. A weapon is defined as something that can be used to attack or defend agansit attack. It is a gun's use as a weapon that causes it to be referred to as a weapon.
A gun does not have to be used as a weapon, first and foremost. It can be used as an instrument to test one's motor skills and one's perception, for example, target shooting. It can also be employed in hunting. This qualifies it as a weapon as well, but demonstrates that there is more complexity to the situation than this limited "reasoning" would love to make it seem.
Quote:
2.weapons hurt people
Weapons certainly have the potential to inflict hurt upon individuals. Once more, it is the manner in which they are used that defines its status as a weapon. A gun does not decide how it is to be used, this requires the act of a human being, or similar-abilitied life form. 
Quote:
3. hurting people is bad
"Bad"? Grossly over-simplified term that demands further explanation. Someone who must rely on a gun as a weapon as a last means to prevent their imminent death when attacked by another human, predatory animal, etc., certainly will not refer to the consequences of using such a firearm as "bad". 
Quote:
4. therefore, guns are bad
A conclusion that cannot be drawn, as it is based on faulty, poorly defined logic. I do not declare that a pair of scissors' identity is "bad" because of the manner in which they are used. Is a pen that is used to sign an executive order to senselessly murder thousands of lives "bad"?
Is the car that a drunken driver steers into another human being, instantly killing the unfortunate, sober individual, "bad"? What is "bad", anyways? There is no difference inherent in this example as compared to that of a gun being used as a weapon to hurt people, and yet anyone exercising common sense will realize that one cannot define the car in such a manner because of the action chosen by the individual utilizing the car.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
Edited by fireworks_god (03/16/06 01:46 PM)
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gluke bastid
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5408925 - 03/16/06 03:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why does everyone keep talking about guns as if they are something other than what they are? Who do you think you are kidding by saying that a gun isn't a weapon? What's the point in ignoring the fact that a gun, if only in terms of cultural significance, is a weapon.
No crap a gun doesn't decide how it gets used. That doesn't mean anything. If your argument is that from a law of physics point of view it is possible for a gun to physically exist in the universe without it being fired, well yes than your right. But guns were made to be fired. 99.9% of people on this planet understand what a gun can do. So why not call a spade a spade and just admit that a gun is weapon?
Gun happy people who aren't willing to refer to guns as weapons remind me of pro-choice activists who are scared to use the word "abortion." At least be honest about what your supporting instead of candy coating it.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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wilshire
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5409249 - 03/16/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i was explaining the apparent logic of anti-gun nuts, not my personal beliefs.
i agree with you that the logic is flawed but not the reasons you gave.
here:
1. guns are weapons.
this is true. a firearm is a weapon. no way around that one. they have non-weapon uses, but their primary purpose, and the one for which they've been designed, is for doing violence, either to people or other animals. it is accurate to describe firearms as weapons.
2.weapons hurt people
here the chain starts to deteriorate. weapons do not always hurt people. they may be used for hurting people, but the vast majority of firearms (at least in america and most industrialized nations) are not ever used for hurting people. they're used for hunting and target shooting.
3. hurting people is bad
hurting people is not always bad. there is nothing wrong with defensive restraining force.
4. therefore guns are bad.
so by the time we get here there's nothing left of it.
they usually also believe that banning guns, or certain guns, will reduce the crime rate. it seems like common sense to your anti-gun nut, but in reality there is absolutely no evidence to support this theory. i've researched it at length and the best i can come up with is that there is no forward causal link between firearms prohibition and violent crime rates.
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5409679 - 03/16/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
daimyo said:
Quote:
PhanTomCat said: If you were "secure" in your mortality, does that mean that you would be more apt to choose to stay in the path of a tornado - as opposed to someone who was not secure in his/her own mortality...?
. I think equating a tornado to a person carrying a firearm is off. Equating it to living in tornado alley, or New Orleans, would be a better analogy IMO. The owner is not a tornado until they begin shooting in an uncontrolled manner, thus unleashing the potential wrath.
OK, so people living in tornado alley or New Orleans you think are more secure with their own mortality then people not living there....?
Controlled or uncontrolled, on purpose or on accident, it doesn't matter.... It is the unpredictable nature/potential that I was trying to point out - more-so when the weapon is in the other person's hands....
Ya~ know what I mean....?
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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inv3rse
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#5410497 - 03/16/06 10:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Guns don't kill people; People kill people!
-------------------- "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." "Strange memories on this nervous night in Las Vegas. Five years later? Six? It seems like a lifetime, or at least a main era - -the kind of peak that never comes again. San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run, but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant." Hunter S. Thompson.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: gluke bastid]
#5411513 - 03/17/06 07:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
gluke bastid said: What's the point in ignoring the fact that a gun, if only in terms of cultural significance, is a weapon.
The point is that a weapon is defined by the manner in which it is used, and the fact remains that a gun has potential uses that are not as a weapon.
In fact, I would go so far as to state very assuredly that using guns for shooting is an Olympic sport. 
Quote:
No crap a gun doesn't decide how it gets used. That doesn't mean anything. If your argument is that from a law of physics point of view it is possible for a gun to physically exist in the universe without it being fired, well yes than your right. But guns were made to be fired. 99.9% of people on this planet understand what a gun can do. So why not call a spade a spade and just admit that a gun is weapon?
The fact that it is very easy to use a gun as a weapon, or that it was probably originally intended to be used as a weapon, simply does not define it as a weapon. No one is questioning whether or not it is possible for a gun to exist without it being fired. Firing a gun, in itself, does not constitute the gun as being a weapon.
Is a car a weapon due to the fact that they have been used to kill other human beings, even intentionally? What about a pair of scissors, a log, or any other one of the innumerable items that can be used sucessfully as a weapon, to inflict harm onto others?
The simple fact that remains is that the only difference between all of that and a gun that is being proposed is the intention of the usage of the object in question. As an inanimate physical object has no capacity for intention, or choice, I remain truly baffled as to who is responsible. 
You will have extreme difficulty in proving that a gun is inherently a weapon beyond simply stating that it is so. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#5411527 - 03/17/06 07:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said: Controlled or uncontrolled, on purpose or on accident, it doesn't matter.... It is the unpredictable nature/potential that I was trying to point out - more-so when the weapon is in the other person's hands....
Unpredictable nature is a fact of life. Surely we can take steps towards reducing the amount of unpredictable nature that can inflict harm upon us, but yet we can always go one step further by imposing more rules and regulations in order to do so.
Strapping every single human being to chairs is certainly a measure that will alleviate uncontrollable behavior in others that has the potential to become threatening to ourselves. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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niteowl
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5411541 - 03/17/06 07:17 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You will have extreme difficulty in proving that a gun is inherently a weapon beyond simply stating that it is so.
You can say that about just about anything
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5411546 - 03/17/06 07:19 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: i was explaining the apparent logic of anti-gun nuts, not my personal beliefs.
I understand; I was merely responding to the suspossed logic as it stood, and was not associating it with your personal beliefs.
Quote:
this is true. a firearm is a weapon. no way around that one. they have non-weapon uses, but their primary purpose, and the one for which they've been designed, is for doing violence, either to people or other animals. it is accurate to describe firearms as weapons.
Purpose is defined by ourselves and does not lie inherent within the object itself. For all practical purposes, indeed, call it a weapon, just as any object that is used as a weapon can be referred to as a weapon. One's car, scissors, cooking iron, fist, guitar, pop bottle, sheet of glass, marshmellow, etc. etc. etc. etc. Within the context of an objects use as a weapon, the object is a weapon.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5411789 - 03/17/06 08:39 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Just wondering: What can a gun be used for other than as a weapon?
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it stars saddam
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: Silversoul]
#5411792 - 03/17/06 08:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: Just wondering: What can a gun be used for other than as a weapon?
Recreation.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: Silversoul]
#5411821 - 03/17/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: Just wondering: What can a gun be used for other than as a weapon?
I'd hate to spin tires on ground that has already been covered several times, so, instead of simply urging you to read my responses that have already addressed this, I will provide for your convience a direct quotation. 
Quote:
fireworks_god said: In fact, I would go so far as to state very assuredly that using guns for shooting is an Olympic sport. 

 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: niteowl]
#5411830 - 03/17/06 08:52 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said: You can say that about just about anything
Demonstration is usually rather effective, so long as it is not prone to being validly refuted. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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wilshire
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5412152 - 03/17/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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The point is that a weapon is defined by the manner in which it is used
a weapon may also be defined by its intended purpose. if it is designed as a tool of violence, it is a weapon.
The fact that it is very easy to use a gun as a weapon, or that it was probably originally intended to be used as a weapon, simply does not define it as a weapon.
yes it does.
"weapon
? noun 1 a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage. 2 a means of gaining an advantage or defending oneself."
- the oxford english dictionary
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/weapon?view=uk
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5412210 - 03/17/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: a weapon may also be defined by its intended purpose. if it is designed as a tool of violence, it is a weapon.
Exactly; keywords, "intended purpose". Intended purpose is within the eye of the beholder. I can design an object to fufill a sole purpose, and another human, without any knowledge of my intented purpose for the object, can find an entirely different, "sole purpose" for the object.
The intention of the creator is not bound to an object, and the "creator" does not own a monopoly on purpose, regardless of the practical definition of the term that I have already acknowledged.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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wilshire
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5412272 - 03/17/06 11:05 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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a firearm is "a thing designed... for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage." therefore, under the definition of "weapon" in the oxford english dictionary, widely considered to be the most authoritative, it is not incorrect to refer to a firearm as a weapon.
firearms are weapons. however: 1) weapons are not always used for violence. 2) it is not always wrong to employ violence.
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shriek
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5412345 - 03/17/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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violence
? noun 1 behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill. 2 strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.
also from the oxford dictionary
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wilshire
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: shriek]
#5412370 - 03/17/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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and?
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5412422 - 03/17/06 11:47 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: firearms are weapons.
Indeed, firearms are weapons, within the realm of practical definitions.
The reality of the matter is that what determines an object as being a weapon is nothing evident within the object itself.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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shriek
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5412467 - 03/17/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: and?
you dont intend to hurt in self defense. i dont think self defense is concideret violence per defination.
defence (US defense)
? noun 1 the action of defending from or resisting attack. 2 military measures or resources for protecting a country. 3 (defences) fortifications against attack. 4 attempted justification or vindication. 5 the case presented by or on behalf of the party being accused or sued in a lawsuit. 6 (the defence) the counsel for the defendant in a lawsuit. 7 (in sport) the action of defending one?s goal or wicket, or the players in a team who perform this role
intent
? noun intention or purpose.
? adjective 1 (intent on/upon) determined to do. 2 (intent on/upon) attentively occupied with. 3 showing earnest and eager attention.
siince there is so much talk about defination of words in this debate.
Edited by shriek (03/17/06 12:12 PM)
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wilshire
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: shriek]
#5412508 - 03/17/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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violence:
"behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill"
defense:
"the action of defending from or resisting attack."
"defending from or resisting attack" very often involves using "behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill".
defense very often involves violence.
i dont think self defense is concideret violence per defination.
actually it is, and it's right there in the definitions.
this is really all very pointless. can someone who doesn't like guns explain why? maybe things can get back onto a meaningful track.
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shriek
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5412518 - 03/17/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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my simple point was that all this definitions is sidetracking the whole debate ie is a gun a weapon or not.
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wilshire
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: shriek]
#5412537 - 03/17/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i agree.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5412616 - 03/17/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
wilshire said: firearms are weapons.
Indeed, firearms are weapons, within the realm of practical definitions.
The reality of the matter is that what determines an object as being a weapon is nothing evident within the object itself.
That's true for 'natural' objects, but not for human constructed ones. The fact, that you can give a 'warning shot', or different usages, does not refute the intention of a weapon built of. An instrument of plain physical power, to immediate stop the living of someone by simply 'pointing' at him, like an ancient archmage pointing his conjuring-rod on an enemy or victim..
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5413305 - 03/17/06 03:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: That's true for 'natural' objects, but not for human constructed ones.
Oh really? Please demonstrate the difference. The fact that we are a natural process that has the ability to manipulate natural objects distinguishes our objects from the objects that a volcano's behavior naturally produces? 
Quote:
The fact, that you can give a 'warning shot', or different usages, does not refute the intention of a weapon built of
INTENTION does not exist within an object itself. Where does intention exist? Intention is implied by ourselves. A human created a flag with the intention of it being flown in the air, and yet I have purchased one and hung it on my wall. A human created a pair of scissors in order to cut paper and fabric into pieces, but yet another human intented to use the scissors to jab a hole into another human's chest.
Any object has a myriad of potential use, regardless of original intention, which exists solely within a human being. Obviously, that intention influenced the behavior of the human who has manipulated the object to make it more proper for a specific use, but it is the use of the object that designates what the object is. What was once merely for killing others is now a tool capable of testing advanced capabilities of human beings, such as marksmanship.
All of this should be pretty elementary. If a gun is a weapon, then very nearly every other single object in the universe is a weapon. Demonstrate what the original intention responsible for the creation of a gun was. Obviously, it is indeed quite useful as a weapon, but yet it could have originally been created in order to knock coconuts out of trees. As intention does not exist inherent within an object itself, we will never know, now will we?
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5413315 - 03/17/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: this is really all very pointless. can someone who doesn't like guns explain why? maybe things can get back onto a meaningful track.
A line of reasoning was proposed as to why one would dislike firearms, and debate regarding points of that reasoning have ensued. Regardless of whether or not you personally feel it is a meaningful track for the discussion to follow, it directly pertains to the subject at hand.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5414810 - 03/17/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Oh sorry, yes also (almost?) every natural object has inherent meaning too. But that meaning was not designed by humans, but by nature and has not necessarily to include some human  You know the inherent meaning(s) of a fruit, for example ?
Hehe, a rifle for getting coconuts ? That would be a very unfitting 'invention', but, perhaps better than nothing 
A gun was designed to have the main inherent meaning of killing or severely wounding living creatures, despite the human meaning of defence or aggression.
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zorbman
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5415043 - 03/18/06 02:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Probably cause guns are for pussies and men with small penises.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: zorbman]
#5415074 - 03/18/06 02:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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probably
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niteowl
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5415116 - 03/18/06 03:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
daimyo said: I constantly ask myself why there are some who dislike firearms. Sometimes I think it is an ignorance of the inherent neutrality of the tool, or a prior negative experience(losing a family member to gun violence). But, more often that not, I feel it stems from a fear of death. Those who are insecure about there own mortality just don't like things that can easily bring them to their last breath.
What are your thoughts?
I don't have a problem with rifles, shotguns or muzzle-loaders .....guns that are primarily used for hunting. They can be used for protecting your home also, but are primarily made/used for hunting.
Hand guns were made for killing humans, they can be used for hunting, but are primarily made/used for killing people. I have a real problem with people who feel the need to carry a hand gun.
IME these people are the ones who are truly afraid. They live with the constant fear of being harmed.
Having a scared person walking around with a loaded gun is not a good idea.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5415248 - 03/18/06 06:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: You know the inherent meaning(s) of a fruit, for example ?
You mean to provide food for small animals and birds? Sorry, but meaning is not inherent, as it does not exist within an object itself.
Quote:
A gun was designed to have the main inherent meaning of killing or severely wounding living creatures, despite the human meaning of defence or aggression.
One cannot design an object to have any inherent meaning. One can design an object, influencing the design of that object in accordance of the meaning that one has created for it, but one cannot instill within an object meaning itself.
The word "Stop" on a sign means nothing and conveys nothing. It is the mind that recognizes this pattern and associates it with the meaning that it wishes to associate with it. Nothing intended by the creator of a Stop sign exists within the Stop sign itself.
Not to mention the fact that a tree has no intentions when it bears fruit. What is the intention of a volcano, responsible for creating for us land upon which to stand? All of these processes produce something that serves a purpose to something else, but as intention does not exist without a conscious mind, it simply is. THAT is the point. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5415537 - 03/18/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: You know the inherent meaning(s) of a fruit, for example ?
You mean to provide food for small animals and birds? Sorry, but meaning is not inherent, as it does not exist within an object itself.
Not only that. A fruit to propagate in a specific way. But I give you right, that an object has no meaning itself without CONTEXT. Now, show me, what does not has any context in reality ? For human stuff produced it's the same. Context gives the inherent meaning of that invention. Simply as that. If the context changes in the future, one can use that thing in another context, which was not intended from the designer and not intended to the object as main purpose.
Quote:
Quote:
A gun was designed to have the main inherent meaning of killing or severely wounding living creatures, despite the human meaning of defence or aggression.
One cannot design an object to have any inherent meaning.
This is done all the time, to let the object work in a specific context.
Quote:
One can design an object, influencing the design of that object in accordance of the meaning that one has created for it, but one cannot instill within an object meaning itself.
That is done by optimizing its usage to the context.
Quote:
The word "Stop" on a sign means nothing and conveys nothing. It is the mind that recognizes this pattern and associates it with the meaning that it wishes to associate with it. Nothing intended by the creator of a Stop sign exists within the Stop sign itself.
Words are no objects but even they carry inherent meanings. Contexts can be learned by culture and may be artificial in human terms as well. I am not trained to human made cultural contexts for evoking meaning to artificial things very well 
Quote:
Not to mention the fact that a tree has no intentions when it bears fruit. What is the intention of a volcano, responsible for creating for us land upon which to stand? All of these processes produce something that serves a purpose to something else, but as intention does not exist without a conscious mind, it simply is. THAT is the point. 
Who are you to know that a tree has no intention ?? You may wonder, that one can assign inherent meaning even to a stone in specific contexts. Does that mean the stone has intention ? Why should the intention of a human get over to a colt ? Of course it doesn't. It's the intention of its usage which transfers into meaning upon a weapon. And why do you mix up meaning and intention randomly ?
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unbeliever
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5415689 - 03/18/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Three pages of no doubt high-quality replies. Going on minimal sleep after a st. patty's day party though so I'll just answer the original question...
I don't dislike firearms. I dislike the way certain people use them. Ie, to harm another person whether through threat or actual application of force. I feel the same way about drugs. I don't care what people do to their bodies. But as soon as they get behind the wheel, or step up to the operating table, or clock in for their job as an air traffic controller, etc.. that's when I have a problem with it.
Basing judgements of other people's behavior solely on whether it harms another person is pretty fool-proof.
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: unbeliever]
#5415758 - 03/18/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
unbeliever said: Basing judgements of other people's behavior solely on whether it harms another person is pretty fool-proof.

By the way, I love your signature quote. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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unbeliever
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5415781 - 03/18/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
unbeliever said: Basing judgements of other people's behavior solely on whether it harms another person is pretty fool-proof.

By the way, I love your signature quote. 
 Peace.
Thanks!
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5415835 - 03/18/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Not only that. A fruit to propagate in a specific way.
My point was that, as a fruit, in itself, carries with it no hint of intention or meaning, another perspective will utilize it for its own means, regardless of whatever intent the object was to fufill.
Quote:
Now, show me, what does not has any context in reality ?
Eh?
Quote:
For human stuff produced it's the same. Context gives the inherent meaning of that invention. Simply as that. If the context changes in the future, one can use that thing in another context, which was not intended from the designer and not intended to the object as main purpose.
Well, to stick with the terminology that you are employing, context creates the meaning of that invention, which means that it certainly doesn't lie inherent within the object itself. 
Quote:
This is done all the time, to let the object work in a specific context.
One can design an object with an intended purpose in mind, in order to work within a specific context, but one cannot place or instill meaning or intention within an object itself. Once again, that is the point.
Quote:
That is done by optimizing its usage to the context.
No it is not. Meaning cannot exist within an object itself.
Quote:
Words are no objects but even they carry inherent meanings.
A stop sign is an object, first and foremost. Secondly, a word is an object in that an object is something that is perceptible by one's senses.
Thirdly, the nature of language should make my point crystal clear in that words themselves do not carry with them the meaning of the word that the word was created to represent. A word represents meaning only to one that associates the word with the specific meaning, within one's mind. Meaning only exists within the realm of one's mind. Someone who has not been taught to speak or understand any human language will not know what the hell is being meant by what is being said.
*reaches forth and strangles you* 
Quote:
Who are you to know that a tree has no intention ??
Exactly. I am not one to know whether or not a tree has intention, or, if it does, what its intention is, as intention does not exist within any object. One cannot perceive a tree and state "I know what that tree's intention is". If an object itself conveyed intention, then one would thus know that intention. 
Quote:
You may wonder, that one can assign inherent meaning even to a stone in specific contexts.
Do you even know what "inherent meaning" is?
One could not assign inherent meaning because inherent meaning lies inherent within!!!!
Meaning does not exist as an essential characteristic of an object! It is implied by a conscious observer, which is to say, meaning is assigned and only pertains to that which is doing the assigning!
Quote:
And why do you mix up meaning and intention randomly ?
in?tend Audio pronunciation of "intend" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-tnd) v. in?tend?ed, in?tend?ing, in?tends v. tr. 1. To have in mind; plan: We intend to go. They intend going. You intended that she go. 2. 1. To design for a specific purpose. 2. To have in mind for a particular use. 3. To signify or mean.
mean1 Audio pronunciation of "meaning" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mn) v. meant, (mnt) mean?ing, means v. tr.
1. 1. To be used to convey; denote: ??The question is,? said Alice, ?whether you can make words mean so many different things?? (Lewis Carroll). 2. To act as a symbol of; signify or represent: In this poem, the budding flower means youth. 2. To intend to convey or indicate: ?No one means all he says, and yet very few say all they mean, for words are slippery and thought is viscous? (Henry Adams). 3. To have as a purpose or an intention; intend: I meant to go running this morning, but I overslept. 4. To design, intend, or destine for a certain purpose or end: a building that was meant for storage; a student who was meant to be a scientist.
To be blunt, because they pretty much mean the exact same damn thing. It isn't a random occurence, it is myself using the language that I use in the manner in which it is to be used. 
Perhaps we should begin speaking the same language before we continue to discuss matters, as my headache is getting worse. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Redstorm
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5415946 - 03/18/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think the reason many people dislike (and to an extent, would like to be rid of) guns is because they makes the mistake of placing the blame of violent action on the gun and not the person shooting it. If we didn't have guns, people would just kil each other by different means.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: Redstorm]
#5415980 - 03/18/06 01:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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shriek
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: Redstorm]
#5416041 - 03/18/06 02:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: I think the reason many people dislike (and to an extent, would like to be rid of) guns is because they makes the mistake of placing the blame of violent action on the gun and not the person shooting it. If we didn't have guns, people would just kil each other by different means.
simple question, what you are sayin is that if guns didnt exist whatsoever the muder ratio would be the same?
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Redstorm
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: shriek]
#5416063 - 03/18/06 02:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I would say so. Ridiculously strong gun restrictions were placed on guns in Australia a little while back, and the murder rate did not decrease.
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MystikMushroom
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: unbeliever]
#5416113 - 03/18/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
unbeliever said: Basing judgements of other people's behavior solely on whether it harms another person is pretty fool-proof.
Judging anyone is wrong...Who are you to say that their actions (killing someone with a gun) are any more injust than you eating junk food to destroy your body slowly?
I don't know. I think so abstractly, and from such a wierd vantage point that in my perspective judgment is judgement. It's an emotional expression, and it can take diffrent forms.
I don't ever want to be judged for anything I do. I know what I'm doing is right for me in my waking-dream. Because of this I refuse to participate in the judgment of others. They have as much right to dream their own dream as I do mine.
Anyway, back to the topic...
I like guns. For hunting. I like the noise, smell and the look of guns. I want to buy a gun for hunting, a rifle. Someone said handguns are meant to kill humans--rightly so. Killing another is like killing a part of yourself. If you can do without that part of yourself go ahead--but I'd be willing to bet that you can't.
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Redstorm
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Quote:
Who are you to say that their actions (killing someone with a gun) are any more injust than you eating junk food to destroy your body slowly?
That is absurd. You have no right over another person's body, while you have a complete right over you own.
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MystikMushroom
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: Redstorm]
#5416189 - 03/18/06 03:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Who are you to say that their actions (killing someone with a gun) are any more injust than you eating junk food to destroy your body slowly?
That is absurd. You have no right over another person's body, while you have a complete right over you own.
Another? Hm...that's an interesting choice of verbage.
Do you really belive that you are seperate from everyone else? Do you really belive that ANY of us really "owns" in any sence of the word their own existance?
If you do, thats fine. I'll just shut up and keep to myself.
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Redstorm
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Yes, I really do. You don't have to shut up, though. It's natural to disagree.
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MystikMushroom
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: Redstorm]
#5416225 - 03/18/06 03:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Haha! Indeed it is natrual..but I don't see it as disagreement...more like a diffrent perspective and/or diffrent vantage point on reality. Both valid, both invalid by the other's deffinition. Both could not exisit simultaneously.. . Oh man I need to wake up and get some coffee. I'm not even understanding what im trying to say. Jeeze..sorry man!
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Redstorm
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No worries!
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it stars saddam
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"And this is apparently who we each are. We are a little bit of eternity sticking into three dimensional space, and for some reason occupying time in a monkey-body" - T. McKenna
Cool quote.
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barfightlard
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5416745 - 03/18/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think firearms can be a great tool. Thing is that that kind of tool has been widley put to use to hurt other humans, much of the time innocent ones or those who didn't deserve it. It is a tool which is not respected in the hands of some and thats when people get hurt. The only "modern" country with a significant gun problem (death numbers, hostile shootings, ect) is the USA. I'm not sure if it's how they regulate their fire arms, if their "culture (lol btw)" or social conditions, or a very poor combination of them......
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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: barfightlard]
#5417045 - 03/18/06 08:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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alright here's what i've been thinking.:
people who dislike guns usually haven't given them much thought. they can't understand why anyone would want a gun or be opposed to the idea of banning them. typical responses to reasons for wanting to own a gun:
1. target shooting -
tens of thousands of people murdered each year by guns so that you guys can play with your toys?
2. hunting -
responses here differ but they range from accepting that as a valid reason or decrying it as inhumane and violent.
3. self-defense -
you're never going to need a gun for self defense. you're paranoid.
4. defense from tyranny -
hahaha.
people who call for the banning of private gun ownership see it as the normal thing to do in a civilized society. they look at europe, with it's low violent crime rate and strict gun laws, as a model to follow. they do not realize that there are many other factors at work that make europe low in crime. they usually do not realize that target shooting is a national pasttime in switzerland, and that the country maintains a very low violent crime rate while having a very high rate of gun ownership. they have not taken the time to compare crime rates in australia and the UK before and after the governments of these countries confiscated privately owned firearms.
they usually do not understand target shooting or hunting. it looks like a way for people with certain issues (small penis is commonly cited) to feel powerful and manly. they usually have never actually shot at targets, and do not appreciate its meditative qualities. hunting wild game living a normal life in its natural habitat is barbaric, but the mechanized meat industry is civilized.
they feel that guns, as weapons, are ugly. they're made for killing people. they're made for doing violence. who would appreciate such an object? sociopaths, that's who. they don't understand that just like many people appreciate the engineering of a fine automobile or watch, a precision firearm is a feat of engineering that some people appreciate. they've never seen a beautiful antique shotgun up close or had the pleasure of shooting one.
they don't understand that there are bad people out there and that self-defense is a valid reason for wanting a gun. they have saved countless innocent lives in this capacity. it just usually doesn't make it past the local newspaper. some people are on their own as far as home defense. anti-gun nuts don't understand why some people cannot accept "i guess we're fucked" as the answer to the question: what will you do if your family's home is broken into by a person intent on violence? they don't understand that some people feel that it is very important that they be able to respond to such an emergency. it's not paranoid to have smoke detectors, or to lock the doors at night, or to have fire extinguishers, or first aid kits, but it's abnormal and paranoid to prepare for an emergency of the type where firearm would be necessary.
they're basically entirely ignorant of guns, basing their assumptions on the "common sense" of what they here from those around them and the media. one thing i've noticed is that there are sharp parallels between the anti-drug nuts and the anti-gun nuts. both are:
- entirely ignorant of the facts of the issue - naive about the consequences of prohibition - getting their 'facts' from inaccurate biased sources, not first hand experience
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shriek
*********

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3,274
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5417494 - 03/18/06 10:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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if you collect guns, admire guns, targetshoots, hunt, whatever as long its in a safe manner, i dont think, what you refer to as anti gun nuts, cares so much. the worry is guns in the hands of kids, criminals and whoever that uses a gun to rob banks, murder people, threaten people, , this kind of stuff, this is where the worry is. not if a gun has a mind of its own or not. if its designed to be a weapon per definition or not, and so on
you can debate back and forth to the end of time what a gun is. i dont think that is important at all, it goes nowhere. the real issue is how to prevent gangbangers from owning guns, kids that kills fellow students and teacher at school, how to stop the guns getting ub their hands and i seriously doubt if guns werent around they would do drive bys with swords and scissors
. i dont see many here argue against target shooters, , shoot as many target as you wish. collect as many guns you want, jsut be responsible. i havent seen anyone in this debate worries about responsible gun owners i
but what can be done to stop criminals and also more and more kids from getting guns? this is what worries people i think not if a gun is designed to kill or not, problem is that guns are easily obtained by criminals. what is teh solution here? more guns so everyone can be prepared incase shit happens? less guns? better control of guns?
Edited by shriek (03/18/06 11:03 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: shriek]
#5417846 - 03/19/06 01:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shriek said: safe manner, i dont think, what you refer to as anti gun nuts, cares so much. the worry is guns in the hands of kids, criminals and whoever that uses a gun to rob banks, murder people, threaten people, , this kind of stuff, this is where the worry is. not if a gun has a mind of its own or not. if its designed to be a weapon per definition or not, and so on
Exactly. This is their worry, and their answer is to take power and rights away from others in order to meet their own ends. It is an individual's responsibility to act as they act, and it is for them to suffer the consequences of such action. It is those who are afraid that these actions will harm themselves that try to remove the outlets for these actions from another, as a means of prevention.
As this doesn't directly address the problem, as it only tries to put boundaries around the problem, it takes freedom away from everyone, and, as it has already been stated, merely causes the problem to be expressed through different avenues.
Quote:
the real issue is how to prevent gangbangers from owning guns, kids that kills fellow students and teacher at school, how to stop the guns getting ub their hands and i seriously doubt if guns werent around they would do drive bys with swords and scissors
The real issue is to promote individuals and those bonded tor young individuals to take their responsibility to conduct themselves in manners that do not harm other individuals. Naturally, the only way this can be addressed is to promote awareness, which, of course, means education.
If there is a problem within a society, it is in society's interest to transform those harboring the problem. There is no sense in removing power from everyone if we fail to take our own responsibility as members of society to ensure that others within our society also do so.
As has also been stated, the gun issue is paralleled with the drug issue, the same with media content, the same with abortion, etc. etc. etc.
Quote:
what is teh solution here? more guns so everyone can be prepared incase shit happens? less guns? better control of guns?
None of these are solutions. They do not address the problem, and, as has already been stated, such as with Australia, they simply do not work.
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you can debate back and forth to the end of time what a gun is. i dont think that is important at all, it goes nowhere.
I personally pursued such discussion in order to promote the discernment of the nature of reality. Such discussion is not entirely relevant to the discussion, but it did naturally result from such discussion, even if it was merely a minor aspect of the topic at hand. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5417860 - 03/19/06 01:50 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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fire, I only say, that meaning exists as soon something exists in some context. Because there doesn't exist something without context, there doesn't exist something without meaning. The inherence within is, that the predesigned meaning will fit for most contexts and some things will never be done with a certain object (cook some steak with a gun). So there is inherent meaning, even without a human to perceive it. Intention only can be assigned to living objects/subjects. If someone does not understand a meaning, that will matter only to intelligent subjects. This subject won't handle the context in a right way. Non intelligence are able to not recognize a meaning. Same consequences here, but the meaning will still exist.
A gun will make it easier for bad people (or bad moments inside of people) to do bad things. Also, if everyone has a gun, then the bad people will get artillery or something, worse than guns. So each side arms up and more innocent people will die as a result.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5417937 - 03/19/06 02:58 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: fire, I only say, that meaning exists as soon something exists in some context. Because there doesn't exist something without context, there doesn't exist something without meaning.
Meaning exists as the result of a conscious observer that creates it. Symbols, objects, aspects of reality do not mean anything, they simply are. Meaning is representation, an abstraction formed by a mind, in order to represent reality to the mind. It is a system established by ourselves.
As this is a fundamental point at which one acknowledges that it is either this way or it is not, and we continue to cycle around this without either side realizing that what the other proposes is the reality of the matter, I hereby state that I will not pursue this discussion any further. You have failed to convince me that meaning lies inherent within an object, and I have apparently failed to provide for you an understanding that meaning could not possibly exist within an object itself, so let us move forth from this.
You have stated that inherent meaning is created within an object when an object is taken into consideration of "context", but it is the process of associating an object with this "context" that establishes meaning. As this does not happen within the object itself, but within a mind that performs such operation, meaning thus does not exist within an object, but within a mind that associates an object within "context", "context" apparently signifying its potential use, that which it was originally intended to do, whatever.
If you accept this line of reasoning, then you agree with me that meaning does not lie inherent within an object and cannot exist within an object. If you do not, then we continue to remain at odds on this and must, for now, put discussion of this at rest. Agreed? 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5417968 - 03/19/06 03:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I disagree with your meaning of meaning. I agree to put this to a rest 
ps: inherent meaning attracts intention
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