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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Yes, I really do. You don't have to shut up, though. It's natural to disagree.
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MystikMushroom
I RULE YOU!
Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 400
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: Redstorm]
#5416225 - 03/18/06 03:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Haha! Indeed it is natrual..but I don't see it as disagreement...more like a diffrent perspective and/or diffrent vantage point on reality. Both valid, both invalid by the other's deffinition. Both could not exisit simultaneously.. . Oh man I need to wake up and get some coffee. I'm not even understanding what im trying to say. Jeeze..sorry man!
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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No worries!
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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"And this is apparently who we each are. We are a little bit of eternity sticking into three dimensional space, and for some reason occupying time in a monkey-body" - T. McKenna
Cool quote.
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barfightlard
tales of theinexpressible



Registered: 01/29/03 
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5416745 - 03/18/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think firearms can be a great tool. Thing is that that kind of tool has been widley put to use to hurt other humans, much of the time innocent ones or those who didn't deserve it. It is a tool which is not respected in the hands of some and thats when people get hurt. The only "modern" country with a significant gun problem (death numbers, hostile shootings, ect) is the USA. I'm not sure if it's how they regulate their fire arms, if their "culture (lol btw)" or social conditions, or a very poor combination of them......
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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: barfightlard]
#5417045 - 03/18/06 08:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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alright here's what i've been thinking.:
people who dislike guns usually haven't given them much thought. they can't understand why anyone would want a gun or be opposed to the idea of banning them. typical responses to reasons for wanting to own a gun:
1. target shooting -
tens of thousands of people murdered each year by guns so that you guys can play with your toys?
2. hunting -
responses here differ but they range from accepting that as a valid reason or decrying it as inhumane and violent.
3. self-defense -
you're never going to need a gun for self defense. you're paranoid.
4. defense from tyranny -
hahaha.
people who call for the banning of private gun ownership see it as the normal thing to do in a civilized society. they look at europe, with it's low violent crime rate and strict gun laws, as a model to follow. they do not realize that there are many other factors at work that make europe low in crime. they usually do not realize that target shooting is a national pasttime in switzerland, and that the country maintains a very low violent crime rate while having a very high rate of gun ownership. they have not taken the time to compare crime rates in australia and the UK before and after the governments of these countries confiscated privately owned firearms.
they usually do not understand target shooting or hunting. it looks like a way for people with certain issues (small penis is commonly cited) to feel powerful and manly. they usually have never actually shot at targets, and do not appreciate its meditative qualities. hunting wild game living a normal life in its natural habitat is barbaric, but the mechanized meat industry is civilized.
they feel that guns, as weapons, are ugly. they're made for killing people. they're made for doing violence. who would appreciate such an object? sociopaths, that's who. they don't understand that just like many people appreciate the engineering of a fine automobile or watch, a precision firearm is a feat of engineering that some people appreciate. they've never seen a beautiful antique shotgun up close or had the pleasure of shooting one.
they don't understand that there are bad people out there and that self-defense is a valid reason for wanting a gun. they have saved countless innocent lives in this capacity. it just usually doesn't make it past the local newspaper. some people are on their own as far as home defense. anti-gun nuts don't understand why some people cannot accept "i guess we're fucked" as the answer to the question: what will you do if your family's home is broken into by a person intent on violence? they don't understand that some people feel that it is very important that they be able to respond to such an emergency. it's not paranoid to have smoke detectors, or to lock the doors at night, or to have fire extinguishers, or first aid kits, but it's abnormal and paranoid to prepare for an emergency of the type where firearm would be necessary.
they're basically entirely ignorant of guns, basing their assumptions on the "common sense" of what they here from those around them and the media. one thing i've noticed is that there are sharp parallels between the anti-drug nuts and the anti-gun nuts. both are:
- entirely ignorant of the facts of the issue - naive about the consequences of prohibition - getting their 'facts' from inaccurate biased sources, not first hand experience
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shriek
*********

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3,274
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5417494 - 03/18/06 10:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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if you collect guns, admire guns, targetshoots, hunt, whatever as long its in a safe manner, i dont think, what you refer to as anti gun nuts, cares so much. the worry is guns in the hands of kids, criminals and whoever that uses a gun to rob banks, murder people, threaten people, , this kind of stuff, this is where the worry is. not if a gun has a mind of its own or not. if its designed to be a weapon per definition or not, and so on
you can debate back and forth to the end of time what a gun is. i dont think that is important at all, it goes nowhere. the real issue is how to prevent gangbangers from owning guns, kids that kills fellow students and teacher at school, how to stop the guns getting ub their hands and i seriously doubt if guns werent around they would do drive bys with swords and scissors
. i dont see many here argue against target shooters, , shoot as many target as you wish. collect as many guns you want, jsut be responsible. i havent seen anyone in this debate worries about responsible gun owners i
but what can be done to stop criminals and also more and more kids from getting guns? this is what worries people i think not if a gun is designed to kill or not, problem is that guns are easily obtained by criminals. what is teh solution here? more guns so everyone can be prepared incase shit happens? less guns? better control of guns?
Edited by shriek (03/18/06 11:03 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: shriek]
#5417846 - 03/19/06 01:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shriek said: safe manner, i dont think, what you refer to as anti gun nuts, cares so much. the worry is guns in the hands of kids, criminals and whoever that uses a gun to rob banks, murder people, threaten people, , this kind of stuff, this is where the worry is. not if a gun has a mind of its own or not. if its designed to be a weapon per definition or not, and so on
Exactly. This is their worry, and their answer is to take power and rights away from others in order to meet their own ends. It is an individual's responsibility to act as they act, and it is for them to suffer the consequences of such action. It is those who are afraid that these actions will harm themselves that try to remove the outlets for these actions from another, as a means of prevention.
As this doesn't directly address the problem, as it only tries to put boundaries around the problem, it takes freedom away from everyone, and, as it has already been stated, merely causes the problem to be expressed through different avenues.
Quote:
the real issue is how to prevent gangbangers from owning guns, kids that kills fellow students and teacher at school, how to stop the guns getting ub their hands and i seriously doubt if guns werent around they would do drive bys with swords and scissors
The real issue is to promote individuals and those bonded tor young individuals to take their responsibility to conduct themselves in manners that do not harm other individuals. Naturally, the only way this can be addressed is to promote awareness, which, of course, means education.
If there is a problem within a society, it is in society's interest to transform those harboring the problem. There is no sense in removing power from everyone if we fail to take our own responsibility as members of society to ensure that others within our society also do so.
As has also been stated, the gun issue is paralleled with the drug issue, the same with media content, the same with abortion, etc. etc. etc.
Quote:
what is teh solution here? more guns so everyone can be prepared incase shit happens? less guns? better control of guns?
None of these are solutions. They do not address the problem, and, as has already been stated, such as with Australia, they simply do not work.
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you can debate back and forth to the end of time what a gun is. i dont think that is important at all, it goes nowhere.
I personally pursued such discussion in order to promote the discernment of the nature of reality. Such discussion is not entirely relevant to the discussion, but it did naturally result from such discussion, even if it was merely a minor aspect of the topic at hand. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5417860 - 03/19/06 01:50 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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fire, I only say, that meaning exists as soon something exists in some context. Because there doesn't exist something without context, there doesn't exist something without meaning. The inherence within is, that the predesigned meaning will fit for most contexts and some things will never be done with a certain object (cook some steak with a gun). So there is inherent meaning, even without a human to perceive it. Intention only can be assigned to living objects/subjects. If someone does not understand a meaning, that will matter only to intelligent subjects. This subject won't handle the context in a right way. Non intelligence are able to not recognize a meaning. Same consequences here, but the meaning will still exist.
A gun will make it easier for bad people (or bad moments inside of people) to do bad things. Also, if everyone has a gun, then the bad people will get artillery or something, worse than guns. So each side arms up and more innocent people will die as a result.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5417937 - 03/19/06 02:58 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: fire, I only say, that meaning exists as soon something exists in some context. Because there doesn't exist something without context, there doesn't exist something without meaning.
Meaning exists as the result of a conscious observer that creates it. Symbols, objects, aspects of reality do not mean anything, they simply are. Meaning is representation, an abstraction formed by a mind, in order to represent reality to the mind. It is a system established by ourselves.
As this is a fundamental point at which one acknowledges that it is either this way or it is not, and we continue to cycle around this without either side realizing that what the other proposes is the reality of the matter, I hereby state that I will not pursue this discussion any further. You have failed to convince me that meaning lies inherent within an object, and I have apparently failed to provide for you an understanding that meaning could not possibly exist within an object itself, so let us move forth from this.
You have stated that inherent meaning is created within an object when an object is taken into consideration of "context", but it is the process of associating an object with this "context" that establishes meaning. As this does not happen within the object itself, but within a mind that performs such operation, meaning thus does not exist within an object, but within a mind that associates an object within "context", "context" apparently signifying its potential use, that which it was originally intended to do, whatever.
If you accept this line of reasoning, then you agree with me that meaning does not lie inherent within an object and cannot exist within an object. If you do not, then we continue to remain at odds on this and must, for now, put discussion of this at rest. Agreed? 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5417968 - 03/19/06 03:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I disagree with your meaning of meaning. I agree to put this to a rest 
ps: inherent meaning attracts intention
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