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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5412616 - 03/17/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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fireworks_god said:
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wilshire said: firearms are weapons.
Indeed, firearms are weapons, within the realm of practical definitions.
The reality of the matter is that what determines an object as being a weapon is nothing evident within the object itself.
That's true for 'natural' objects, but not for human constructed ones. The fact, that you can give a 'warning shot', or different usages, does not refute the intention of a weapon built of. An instrument of plain physical power, to immediate stop the living of someone by simply 'pointing' at him, like an ancient archmage pointing his conjuring-rod on an enemy or victim..
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5413305 - 03/17/06 03:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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BlueCoyote said: That's true for 'natural' objects, but not for human constructed ones.
Oh really? Please demonstrate the difference. The fact that we are a natural process that has the ability to manipulate natural objects distinguishes our objects from the objects that a volcano's behavior naturally produces? 
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The fact, that you can give a 'warning shot', or different usages, does not refute the intention of a weapon built of
INTENTION does not exist within an object itself. Where does intention exist? Intention is implied by ourselves. A human created a flag with the intention of it being flown in the air, and yet I have purchased one and hung it on my wall. A human created a pair of scissors in order to cut paper and fabric into pieces, but yet another human intented to use the scissors to jab a hole into another human's chest.
Any object has a myriad of potential use, regardless of original intention, which exists solely within a human being. Obviously, that intention influenced the behavior of the human who has manipulated the object to make it more proper for a specific use, but it is the use of the object that designates what the object is. What was once merely for killing others is now a tool capable of testing advanced capabilities of human beings, such as marksmanship.
All of this should be pretty elementary. If a gun is a weapon, then very nearly every other single object in the universe is a weapon. Demonstrate what the original intention responsible for the creation of a gun was. Obviously, it is indeed quite useful as a weapon, but yet it could have originally been created in order to knock coconuts out of trees. As intention does not exist inherent within an object itself, we will never know, now will we?
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5413315 - 03/17/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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wilshire said: this is really all very pointless. can someone who doesn't like guns explain why? maybe things can get back onto a meaningful track.
A line of reasoning was proposed as to why one would dislike firearms, and debate regarding points of that reasoning have ensued. Regardless of whether or not you personally feel it is a meaningful track for the discussion to follow, it directly pertains to the subject at hand.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5414810 - 03/17/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Oh sorry, yes also (almost?) every natural object has inherent meaning too. But that meaning was not designed by humans, but by nature and has not necessarily to include some human  You know the inherent meaning(s) of a fruit, for example ?
Hehe, a rifle for getting coconuts ? That would be a very unfitting 'invention', but, perhaps better than nothing 
A gun was designed to have the main inherent meaning of killing or severely wounding living creatures, despite the human meaning of defence or aggression.
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zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5415043 - 03/18/06 02:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Probably cause guns are for pussies and men with small penises.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: zorbman]
#5415074 - 03/18/06 02:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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probably
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niteowl
GrandPaw


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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5415116 - 03/18/06 03:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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daimyo said: I constantly ask myself why there are some who dislike firearms. Sometimes I think it is an ignorance of the inherent neutrality of the tool, or a prior negative experience(losing a family member to gun violence). But, more often that not, I feel it stems from a fear of death. Those who are insecure about there own mortality just don't like things that can easily bring them to their last breath.
What are your thoughts?
I don't have a problem with rifles, shotguns or muzzle-loaders .....guns that are primarily used for hunting. They can be used for protecting your home also, but are primarily made/used for hunting.
Hand guns were made for killing humans, they can be used for hunting, but are primarily made/used for killing people. I have a real problem with people who feel the need to carry a hand gun.
IME these people are the ones who are truly afraid. They live with the constant fear of being harmed.
Having a scared person walking around with a loaded gun is not a good idea.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5415248 - 03/18/06 06:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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BlueCoyote said: You know the inherent meaning(s) of a fruit, for example ?
You mean to provide food for small animals and birds? Sorry, but meaning is not inherent, as it does not exist within an object itself.
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A gun was designed to have the main inherent meaning of killing or severely wounding living creatures, despite the human meaning of defence or aggression.
One cannot design an object to have any inherent meaning. One can design an object, influencing the design of that object in accordance of the meaning that one has created for it, but one cannot instill within an object meaning itself.
The word "Stop" on a sign means nothing and conveys nothing. It is the mind that recognizes this pattern and associates it with the meaning that it wishes to associate with it. Nothing intended by the creator of a Stop sign exists within the Stop sign itself.
Not to mention the fact that a tree has no intentions when it bears fruit. What is the intention of a volcano, responsible for creating for us land upon which to stand? All of these processes produce something that serves a purpose to something else, but as intention does not exist without a conscious mind, it simply is. THAT is the point. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5415537 - 03/18/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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fireworks_god said:
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BlueCoyote said: You know the inherent meaning(s) of a fruit, for example ?
You mean to provide food for small animals and birds? Sorry, but meaning is not inherent, as it does not exist within an object itself.
Not only that. A fruit to propagate in a specific way. But I give you right, that an object has no meaning itself without CONTEXT. Now, show me, what does not has any context in reality ? For human stuff produced it's the same. Context gives the inherent meaning of that invention. Simply as that. If the context changes in the future, one can use that thing in another context, which was not intended from the designer and not intended to the object as main purpose.
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A gun was designed to have the main inherent meaning of killing or severely wounding living creatures, despite the human meaning of defence or aggression.
One cannot design an object to have any inherent meaning.
This is done all the time, to let the object work in a specific context.
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One can design an object, influencing the design of that object in accordance of the meaning that one has created for it, but one cannot instill within an object meaning itself.
That is done by optimizing its usage to the context.
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The word "Stop" on a sign means nothing and conveys nothing. It is the mind that recognizes this pattern and associates it with the meaning that it wishes to associate with it. Nothing intended by the creator of a Stop sign exists within the Stop sign itself.
Words are no objects but even they carry inherent meanings. Contexts can be learned by culture and may be artificial in human terms as well. I am not trained to human made cultural contexts for evoking meaning to artificial things very well 
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Not to mention the fact that a tree has no intentions when it bears fruit. What is the intention of a volcano, responsible for creating for us land upon which to stand? All of these processes produce something that serves a purpose to something else, but as intention does not exist without a conscious mind, it simply is. THAT is the point. 
Who are you to know that a tree has no intention ?? You may wonder, that one can assign inherent meaning even to a stone in specific contexts. Does that mean the stone has intention ? Why should the intention of a human get over to a colt ? Of course it doesn't. It's the intention of its usage which transfers into meaning upon a weapon. And why do you mix up meaning and intention randomly ?
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unbeliever
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5415689 - 03/18/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Three pages of no doubt high-quality replies. Going on minimal sleep after a st. patty's day party though so I'll just answer the original question...
I don't dislike firearms. I dislike the way certain people use them. Ie, to harm another person whether through threat or actual application of force. I feel the same way about drugs. I don't care what people do to their bodies. But as soon as they get behind the wheel, or step up to the operating table, or clock in for their job as an air traffic controller, etc.. that's when I have a problem with it.
Basing judgements of other people's behavior solely on whether it harms another person is pretty fool-proof.
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: unbeliever]
#5415758 - 03/18/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
unbeliever said: Basing judgements of other people's behavior solely on whether it harms another person is pretty fool-proof.

By the way, I love your signature quote. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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unbeliever
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5415781 - 03/18/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
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unbeliever said: Basing judgements of other people's behavior solely on whether it harms another person is pretty fool-proof.

By the way, I love your signature quote. 
 Peace.
Thanks!
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5415835 - 03/18/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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BlueCoyote said: Not only that. A fruit to propagate in a specific way.
My point was that, as a fruit, in itself, carries with it no hint of intention or meaning, another perspective will utilize it for its own means, regardless of whatever intent the object was to fufill.
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Now, show me, what does not has any context in reality ?
Eh?
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For human stuff produced it's the same. Context gives the inherent meaning of that invention. Simply as that. If the context changes in the future, one can use that thing in another context, which was not intended from the designer and not intended to the object as main purpose.
Well, to stick with the terminology that you are employing, context creates the meaning of that invention, which means that it certainly doesn't lie inherent within the object itself. 
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This is done all the time, to let the object work in a specific context.
One can design an object with an intended purpose in mind, in order to work within a specific context, but one cannot place or instill meaning or intention within an object itself. Once again, that is the point.
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That is done by optimizing its usage to the context.
No it is not. Meaning cannot exist within an object itself.
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Words are no objects but even they carry inherent meanings.
A stop sign is an object, first and foremost. Secondly, a word is an object in that an object is something that is perceptible by one's senses.
Thirdly, the nature of language should make my point crystal clear in that words themselves do not carry with them the meaning of the word that the word was created to represent. A word represents meaning only to one that associates the word with the specific meaning, within one's mind. Meaning only exists within the realm of one's mind. Someone who has not been taught to speak or understand any human language will not know what the hell is being meant by what is being said.
*reaches forth and strangles you* 
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Who are you to know that a tree has no intention ??
Exactly. I am not one to know whether or not a tree has intention, or, if it does, what its intention is, as intention does not exist within any object. One cannot perceive a tree and state "I know what that tree's intention is". If an object itself conveyed intention, then one would thus know that intention. 
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You may wonder, that one can assign inherent meaning even to a stone in specific contexts.
Do you even know what "inherent meaning" is?
One could not assign inherent meaning because inherent meaning lies inherent within!!!!
Meaning does not exist as an essential characteristic of an object! It is implied by a conscious observer, which is to say, meaning is assigned and only pertains to that which is doing the assigning!
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And why do you mix up meaning and intention randomly ?
in?tend Audio pronunciation of "intend" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-tnd) v. in?tend?ed, in?tend?ing, in?tends v. tr. 1. To have in mind; plan: We intend to go. They intend going. You intended that she go. 2. 1. To design for a specific purpose. 2. To have in mind for a particular use. 3. To signify or mean.
mean1 Audio pronunciation of "meaning" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mn) v. meant, (mnt) mean?ing, means v. tr.
1. 1. To be used to convey; denote: ??The question is,? said Alice, ?whether you can make words mean so many different things?? (Lewis Carroll). 2. To act as a symbol of; signify or represent: In this poem, the budding flower means youth. 2. To intend to convey or indicate: ?No one means all he says, and yet very few say all they mean, for words are slippery and thought is viscous? (Henry Adams). 3. To have as a purpose or an intention; intend: I meant to go running this morning, but I overslept. 4. To design, intend, or destine for a certain purpose or end: a building that was meant for storage; a student who was meant to be a scientist.
To be blunt, because they pretty much mean the exact same damn thing. It isn't a random occurence, it is myself using the language that I use in the manner in which it is to be used. 
Perhaps we should begin speaking the same language before we continue to discuss matters, as my headache is getting worse. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5415946 - 03/18/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think the reason many people dislike (and to an extent, would like to be rid of) guns is because they makes the mistake of placing the blame of violent action on the gun and not the person shooting it. If we didn't have guns, people would just kil each other by different means.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: Redstorm]
#5415980 - 03/18/06 01:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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shriek
*********

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3,274
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: Redstorm]
#5416041 - 03/18/06 02:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Redstorm said: I think the reason many people dislike (and to an extent, would like to be rid of) guns is because they makes the mistake of placing the blame of violent action on the gun and not the person shooting it. If we didn't have guns, people would just kil each other by different means.
simple question, what you are sayin is that if guns didnt exist whatsoever the muder ratio would be the same?
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Redstorm
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: shriek]
#5416063 - 03/18/06 02:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I would say so. Ridiculously strong gun restrictions were placed on guns in Australia a little while back, and the murder rate did not decrease.
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MystikMushroom
I RULE YOU!
Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 400
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: unbeliever]
#5416113 - 03/18/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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unbeliever said: Basing judgements of other people's behavior solely on whether it harms another person is pretty fool-proof.
Judging anyone is wrong...Who are you to say that their actions (killing someone with a gun) are any more injust than you eating junk food to destroy your body slowly?
I don't know. I think so abstractly, and from such a wierd vantage point that in my perspective judgment is judgement. It's an emotional expression, and it can take diffrent forms.
I don't ever want to be judged for anything I do. I know what I'm doing is right for me in my waking-dream. Because of this I refuse to participate in the judgment of others. They have as much right to dream their own dream as I do mine.
Anyway, back to the topic...
I like guns. For hunting. I like the noise, smell and the look of guns. I want to buy a gun for hunting, a rifle. Someone said handguns are meant to kill humans--rightly so. Killing another is like killing a part of yourself. If you can do without that part of yourself go ahead--but I'd be willing to bet that you can't.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Quote:
Who are you to say that their actions (killing someone with a gun) are any more injust than you eating junk food to destroy your body slowly?
That is absurd. You have no right over another person's body, while you have a complete right over you own.
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MystikMushroom
I RULE YOU!
Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 400
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: Redstorm]
#5416189 - 03/18/06 03:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
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Who are you to say that their actions (killing someone with a gun) are any more injust than you eating junk food to destroy your body slowly?
That is absurd. You have no right over another person's body, while you have a complete right over you own.
Another? Hm...that's an interesting choice of verbage.
Do you really belive that you are seperate from everyone else? Do you really belive that ANY of us really "owns" in any sence of the word their own existance?
If you do, thats fine. I'll just shut up and keep to myself.
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