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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
    #5409679 - 03/16/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
If you were "secure" in your mortality, does that mean that you would be more apt to choose to stay in the path of a tornado - as opposed to someone who was not secure in his/her own mortality...?



.
I think equating a tornado to a person carrying a firearm is off. Equating it to living in tornado alley, or New Orleans, would be a better analogy IMO. The owner is not a tornado until they begin shooting in an uncontrolled manner, thus unleashing the potential wrath.




OK, so people living in tornado alley or New Orleans you think are more secure with their own mortality then people not living there....?

Controlled or uncontrolled, on purpose or on accident, it doesn't matter....
It is the unpredictable nature/potential that I was trying to point out - more-so when the weapon is in the other person's hands....

Ya~ know what I mean....?


--------------------
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"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlineinv3rse
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5410497 - 03/16/06 10:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Guns don't kill people; People kill people!


--------------------
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or
insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."

"Strange memories on this nervous night in Las Vegas. Five years later? Six? It seems like a lifetime, or at least a main era - -the kind of peak that never comes again. San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run, but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant."

Hunter S. Thompson.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5411513 - 03/17/06 07:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
What's the point in ignoring the fact that a gun, if only in terms of cultural significance, is a weapon.




The point is that a weapon is defined by the manner in which it is used, and the fact remains that a gun has potential uses that are not as a weapon.

In fact, I would go so far as to state very assuredly that using guns for shooting is an Olympic sport. :smirk:


Quote:


No crap a gun doesn't decide how it gets used. That doesn't mean anything. If your argument is that from a law of physics point of view it is possible for a gun to physically exist in the universe without it being fired, well yes than your right. But guns were made to be fired. 99.9% of people on this planet understand what a gun can do. So why not call a spade a spade and just admit that a gun is weapon?




The fact that it is very easy to use a gun as a weapon, or that it was probably originally intended to be used as a weapon, simply does not define it as a weapon. No one is questioning whether or not it is possible for a gun to exist without it being fired. Firing a gun, in itself, does not constitute the gun as being a weapon.

Is a car a weapon due to the fact that they have been used to kill other human beings, even intentionally? What about a pair of scissors, a log, or any other one of the innumerable items that can be used sucessfully as a weapon, to inflict harm onto others?

The simple fact that remains is that the only difference between all of that and a gun that is being proposed is the intention of the usage of the object in question. As an inanimate physical object has no capacity for intention, or choice, I remain truly baffled as to who is responsible. :lol:

You will have extreme difficulty in proving that a gun is inherently a weapon beyond simply stating that it is so. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5411527 - 03/17/06 07:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Controlled or uncontrolled, on purpose or on accident, it doesn't matter.... 
It is the unpredictable nature/potential that I was trying to point out - more-so when the weapon is in the other person's hands....   




Unpredictable nature is a fact of life. Surely we can take steps towards reducing the amount of unpredictable nature that can inflict harm upon us, but yet we can always go one step further by imposing more rules and regulations in order to do so.

Strapping every single human being to chairs is certainly a measure that will alleviate uncontrollable behavior in others that has the potential to become threatening to ourselves. :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5411541 - 03/17/06 07:17 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You will have extreme difficulty in proving that a gun is inherently a weapon beyond simply stating that it is so.

You can say that about just about anything :smirk:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
    #5411546 - 03/17/06 07:19 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
i was explaining the apparent logic of anti-gun nuts, not my personal beliefs.




I understand; I was merely responding to the suspossed logic as it stood, and was not associating it with your personal beliefs. :wink:

Quote:


this is true. a firearm is a weapon. no way around that one. they have non-weapon uses, but their primary purpose, and the one for which they've been designed, is for doing violence, either to people or other animals. it is accurate to describe firearms as weapons.




Purpose is defined by ourselves and does not lie inherent within the object itself. For all practical purposes, indeed, call it a weapon, just as any object that is used as a weapon can be referred to as a weapon. One's car, scissors, cooking iron, fist, guitar, pop bottle, sheet of glass, marshmellow, etc. etc. etc. etc. Within the context of an objects use as a weapon, the object is a weapon.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5411789 - 03/17/06 08:39 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Just wondering: What can a gun be used for other than as a weapon?


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5411792 - 03/17/06 08:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Just wondering: What can a gun be used for other than as a weapon?




Recreation.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5411821 - 03/17/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Just wondering:  What can a gun be used for other than as a weapon?




I'd hate to spin tires on ground that has already been covered several times, so, instead of simply urging you to read my responses that have already addressed this, I will provide for your convience a direct quotation. :grin:

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
In fact, I would go so far as to state very assuredly that using guns for shooting is an Olympic sport. :smirk:




:wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: niteowl]
    #5411830 - 03/17/06 08:52 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
You can say that about just about anything :smirk:




Demonstration is usually rather effective, so long as it is not prone to being validly refuted. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5412152 - 03/17/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The point is that a weapon is defined by the manner in which it is used

a weapon may also be defined by its intended purpose. if it is designed as a tool of violence, it is a weapon.

The fact that it is very easy to use a gun as a weapon, or that it was probably originally intended to be used as a weapon, simply does not define it as a weapon.

yes it does.

"weapon

? noun 1 a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage. 2 a means of gaining an advantage or defending oneself."

- the oxford english dictionary

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/weapon?view=uk


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
    #5412210 - 03/17/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
a weapon may also be defined by its intended purpose. if it is designed as a tool of violence, it is a weapon.




Exactly; keywords, "intended purpose". Intended purpose is within the eye of the beholder. I can design an object to fufill a sole purpose, and another human, without any knowledge of my intented purpose for the object, can find an entirely different, "sole purpose" for the object.

The intention of the creator is not bound to an object, and the "creator" does not own a monopoly on purpose, regardless of the practical definition of the term that I have already acknowledged. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5412272 - 03/17/06 11:05 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

a firearm is "a thing designed... for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage." therefore, under the definition of "weapon" in the oxford english dictionary, widely considered to be the most authoritative, it is not incorrect to refer to a firearm as a weapon.

firearms are weapons. however: 1) weapons are not always used for violence. 2) it is not always wrong to employ violence.


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Invisibleshriek
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
    #5412345 - 03/17/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

violence

? noun 1 behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill. 2 strength of emotion or an unpleasant or destructive natural force.

also from the oxford dictionary


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: shriek]
    #5412370 - 03/17/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

and?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
    #5412422 - 03/17/06 11:47 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
firearms are weapons.




Indeed, firearms are weapons, within the realm of practical definitions.

The reality of the matter is that what determines an object as being a weapon is nothing evident within the object itself.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleshriek
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
    #5412467 - 03/17/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
and?




you dont intend to hurt in self defense. i dont think self defense is concideret violence per defination.

defence
(US defense)

? noun 1 the action of defending from or resisting attack. 2 military measures or resources for protecting a country. 3 (defences) fortifications against attack. 4 attempted justification or vindication. 5 the case presented by or on behalf of the party being accused or sued in a lawsuit. 6 (the defence) the counsel for the defendant in a lawsuit. 7 (in sport) the action of defending one?s goal or wicket, or the players in a team who perform this role

intent

? noun intention or purpose.

? adjective 1 (intent on/upon) determined to do. 2 (intent on/upon) attentively occupied with. 3 showing earnest and eager attention.




siince there is so much talk about defination of words in this debate.


Edited by shriek (03/17/06 12:12 PM)


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: shriek]
    #5412508 - 03/17/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

violence:

"behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill"


defense:

"the action of defending from or resisting attack."


"defending from or resisting attack" very often involves using "behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill".

defense very often involves violence.

i dont think self defense is concideret violence per defination.

actually it is, and it's right there in the definitions.

this is really all very pointless. can someone who doesn't like guns explain why? maybe things can get back onto a meaningful track.


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Invisibleshriek
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
    #5412518 - 03/17/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

my simple point was that all this definitions is sidetracking the whole debate ie is a gun a weapon or not.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: shriek]
    #5412537 - 03/17/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i agree.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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