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daimyo
Monticello

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Why Do Some Dislike Firearms?
#5404250 - 03/15/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I constantly ask myself why there are some who dislike firearms. Sometimes I think it is an ignorance of the inherent neutrality of the tool, or a prior negative experience(losing a family member to gun violence). But, more often that not, I feel it stems from a fear of death. Those who are insecure about there own mortality just don't like things that can easily bring them to their last breath.
What are your thoughts?
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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gluke bastid
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5404369 - 03/15/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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As someone who doesn't like firearms (but has no interest in limiting others who do), I don't think it is a fear of death. I am willing to wager that a lot of people who own firearms fear death just as much as people who don't. I don't think that's the root of it, especially because I believe that my relative fearlessness of death actually ties in quite strongly with the fact that I don't own a gun. I don't feel that need to have a killing weapon to protect myself. If death is coming for me, then so be it. I'd rather not have the bother of owning a gun, because thats not who I am. You shouldn't assume that just because someone isn't into guns that means they are scared of something you are not.
My personal revulsion towards guns must stem from the ignorance of the inherent neutrality of the gun, because I am ignorant of a gun's neutrality. To me they are not neutral, as I stated in another thread. I'll quote myself:
Quote:
gluke bastid said: labelling a gun as merely a tool is not accurate. A gun is a tool for violence, i.e. shooting projectiles. Saying that a gun doesn't have an inherent violent nature is like saying that a suitcase doesn't have an inherent storage nature. Violence is what a gun is designed for, as storage is what a suitcase is designed for...and both do a damned good job. If someone wants to store things, then they are going to be able to do this more effectively with a suitcase. If someone wants to go on a murderous rampage, then they are going to be able to do this more effectively with a gun.
This is by no means a condemnation of the private ownership of guns. However, when guns are around things are more dangerous because it puts an increased capacity for violence into the hands of the people who own them. This seems obvious to someone like me who can't really stand being in the same room as a gun...to me everyone who owns a gun just seems no different from a cop, really. Although now and then I'll meet a cop who seems allright, they all make me nervous.
I'm getting off track...my point is simply that while a gun is a tool it is a tool of violence, and just as the world is threatened by a particular type of violence because nuclear bombs exist, the world is threatened by a particular type of violence everytime someone owns a gun.
I definitely stand by this argument and would like to see where anyone's disagreements with it are.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5404381 - 03/15/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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1. guns are weapons. 2. weapons hurt people. 3. hurting people is bad. 4. therefore guns are bad.
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shriek
*********

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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5404440 - 03/15/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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the things i dislike most about guns is that they doesnt leave you a chance to fight against them if they are in the hands of wrong people who wants to use it as a tool to do crimes. if someone wants to fistfight with you you have a chance of fighting back, a knife you have a better chance, if someone shoots at you you are likely to die in a heartbeat. guns are however useful to hunt animals for meat or can be useful if you crash into a animal with a car and hurts it bad and end its life quikly to take an example. also i can see how target shoorting can be fun even tho i have no intrest in shooting at targest.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5404467 - 03/15/06 04:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Its a device with the potential to cause tremendous amounts of suffering.
What are your thoughts?
I dunno... I'm on LSD.
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Silversoul
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5404504 - 03/15/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: 1. guns are weapons. 2. weapons hurt people. 3. hurting people is bad. 4. therefore guns are bad.
True, but I do find it strange that many who dislike guns happen to be fascinated with other weapons such as swords. I suppose that's because swords are associated with honor and chivalry and the like, whereas any lowlife can be proficient with a gun. Interestingly enough, such an attitude goes back all the way to the beginning of guns, and is the reason why the Catholic church condemned guns at one point.
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: shriek]
#5404570 - 03/15/06 05:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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the things i dislike most about guns is that they doesnt leave you a chance to fight against them if they are in the hands of wrong people who wants to use it as a tool to do crimes.
they also have great defensive use for people who cannot defend themselves well with their hands and feet, like the elderly and disabled.
The Armed Citizen
compiles a database of news reports of people using firearms in self defense. there are tons of them. they don't ever get past the local news.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5405260 - 03/15/06 07:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
daimyo said: I constantly ask myself why there are some who dislike firearms. Sometimes I think it is an ignorance of the inherent neutrality of the tool, or a prior negative experience(losing a family member to gun violence). But, more often that not, I feel it stems from a fear of death. Those who are insecure about there own mortality just don't like things that can easily bring them to their last breath.
What are your thoughts?
Thats backwards.... Dont you think that people who own and handle guns are usually the ones who are afraid of death? Isnt it the main rhetorical response from the NRA to harp on about protecting their families lives.
Why would you need a gun if you were not afraid of death?
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daimyo
Monticello

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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5405285 - 03/15/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: Thats backwards.... Dont you think that people who own and handle guns are usually the ones who are afraid of death?
I'm sure there is a good percentage of them. I think they fear attack more than death though.
Quote:
psilocyberin said: Why would you need a gun if you were not afraid of death?
Honor, protection, hobby, reasons are limitless. Not fearing death does not equate to being willing to go IMO.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5405349 - 03/15/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I know a few people who collect, and rarely shoot guns.... rich guys with nothing better to spend their money on. It is truly a harmless hobby, and I can understand the beauty and can appreciate guns, but people who carry them around (thugs, cops) usually become quite attached to them, and it becomes an extension of themselves physically and mentally.
btw, wtf does honor have to do with owning a gun?
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daimyo
Monticello

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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5405401 - 03/15/06 07:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: btw, wtf does honor have to do with owning a gun?
When someone gets out of line, and gets shot, they learn real quick that honor is important in all situations.
Firearms are also signs of honor to some(dare I say, many). You grow up in certain places without the protection of a firearm, and there is no honor for you inside the community. Not saying that's everywhere, as I know it's not.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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porcupine
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5405452 - 03/15/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i think some people dislike them because they cause a lot of accidents. if you live in a household that has a gun your chances of getting shot rise several fold.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: porcupine]
#5406304 - 03/15/06 10:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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kind of like if you live with a nympho playboy bunny your chances of being rode reverse cowgirl increase?
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5406366 - 03/15/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
daimyo said: Those who are insecure about there own mortality just don't like things that can easily bring them to their last breath.

Being "secure" in one's own mortality is a *little* different than wanting to live and blindly trusting someone elses potential (mis)judgement with a potential lethal weapon - in a momentary situation....
If you were "secure" in your mortality, does that mean that you would be more apt to choose to stay in the path of a tornado - as opposed to someone who was not secure in his/her own mortality...?

"Every breath brings me one less to my last...." --Dream Theater
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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daimyo
Monticello

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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#5407187 - 03/16/06 06:46 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said: If you were "secure" in your mortality, does that mean that you would be more apt to choose to stay in the path of a tornado - as opposed to someone who was not secure in his/her own mortality...?
I think equating a tornado to a person carrying a firearm is off. Equating it to living in tornado alley, or New Orleans, would be a better analogy IMO. The owner is not a tornado until they begin shooting in an uncontrolled manner, thus unleashing the potential wrath.
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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silver22
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: daimyo]
#5407452 - 03/16/06 09:04 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I's say the majority of people don't have a problem with firearms--it's the people who possess them and don't respect them the dislike of firearms arises.
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daimyo
Monticello

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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: silver22]
#5407812 - 03/16/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Don't want to blame the offenders, so firearms get shit on?
What do you think causes people to do this? Media influence? Political party ideals? Failure to think it through?
For those who oppose fireamrs, do you think someone that uses a firearm during the commision of a crime wouldn't do it if the gun wasn't available? Or would they just find something else?
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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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fireworks_god
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: wilshire]
#5408487 - 03/16/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: 1. guns are weapons. 2. weapons hurt people. 3. hurting people is bad. 4. therefore guns are bad.
I think it is a safe bet that this reasoning isn't going to be included in a logic textbook any time soon. Let us question it with considerable doubt.
Quote:
1. guns are weapons
Guns exist as physical objects. A weapon is defined as something that can be used to attack or defend agansit attack. It is a gun's use as a weapon that causes it to be referred to as a weapon.
A gun does not have to be used as a weapon, first and foremost. It can be used as an instrument to test one's motor skills and one's perception, for example, target shooting. It can also be employed in hunting. This qualifies it as a weapon as well, but demonstrates that there is more complexity to the situation than this limited "reasoning" would love to make it seem.
Quote:
2.weapons hurt people
Weapons certainly have the potential to inflict hurt upon individuals. Once more, it is the manner in which they are used that defines its status as a weapon. A gun does not decide how it is to be used, this requires the act of a human being, or similar-abilitied life form. 
Quote:
3. hurting people is bad
"Bad"? Grossly over-simplified term that demands further explanation. Someone who must rely on a gun as a weapon as a last means to prevent their imminent death when attacked by another human, predatory animal, etc., certainly will not refer to the consequences of using such a firearm as "bad". 
Quote:
4. therefore, guns are bad
A conclusion that cannot be drawn, as it is based on faulty, poorly defined logic. I do not declare that a pair of scissors' identity is "bad" because of the manner in which they are used. Is a pen that is used to sign an executive order to senselessly murder thousands of lives "bad"?
Is the car that a drunken driver steers into another human being, instantly killing the unfortunate, sober individual, "bad"? What is "bad", anyways? There is no difference inherent in this example as compared to that of a gun being used as a weapon to hurt people, and yet anyone exercising common sense will realize that one cannot define the car in such a manner because of the action chosen by the individual utilizing the car.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
Edited by fireworks_god (03/16/06 01:46 PM)
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gluke bastid
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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5408925 - 03/16/06 03:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why does everyone keep talking about guns as if they are something other than what they are? Who do you think you are kidding by saying that a gun isn't a weapon? What's the point in ignoring the fact that a gun, if only in terms of cultural significance, is a weapon.
No crap a gun doesn't decide how it gets used. That doesn't mean anything. If your argument is that from a law of physics point of view it is possible for a gun to physically exist in the universe without it being fired, well yes than your right. But guns were made to be fired. 99.9% of people on this planet understand what a gun can do. So why not call a spade a spade and just admit that a gun is weapon?
Gun happy people who aren't willing to refer to guns as weapons remind me of pro-choice activists who are scared to use the word "abortion." At least be honest about what your supporting instead of candy coating it.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Why Do Some Dislike Firearms? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5409249 - 03/16/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i was explaining the apparent logic of anti-gun nuts, not my personal beliefs.
i agree with you that the logic is flawed but not the reasons you gave.
here:
1. guns are weapons.
this is true. a firearm is a weapon. no way around that one. they have non-weapon uses, but their primary purpose, and the one for which they've been designed, is for doing violence, either to people or other animals. it is accurate to describe firearms as weapons.
2.weapons hurt people
here the chain starts to deteriorate. weapons do not always hurt people. they may be used for hurting people, but the vast majority of firearms (at least in america and most industrialized nations) are not ever used for hurting people. they're used for hunting and target shooting.
3. hurting people is bad
hurting people is not always bad. there is nothing wrong with defensive restraining force.
4. therefore guns are bad.
so by the time we get here there's nothing left of it.
they usually also believe that banning guns, or certain guns, will reduce the crime rate. it seems like common sense to your anti-gun nut, but in reality there is absolutely no evidence to support this theory. i've researched it at length and the best i can come up with is that there is no forward causal link between firearms prohibition and violent crime rates.
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