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InvisibleDexter_Morgan
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Wikipedia - Dikaryon
    #5399285 - 03/14/06 03:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I was reading http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5288894/an/0/page/0
and I looked up some words to better understand. (It's a great read, but gets very technical. So I went to Wikipedia to look up dikaryon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dikaryon
Question what does the word ascogenous mean? I already looked 3 different places.


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OfflineDelinquentes
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Re: Wikipedia - Dikaryon [Re: Dexter_Morgan]
    #5399355 - 03/14/06 04:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I found this on Cancerweb.....yes, I said cancer.

"ascogenous
Denoting ascus-bearing fungus hypha or cell."

Ascus meaning:

as?cus    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sks)
n. pl. as?ci (s, -k)
A membranous, often club-shaped structure in which typically eight ascospores are formed through sexual reproduction of ascomycetes.



Not bad for a semi Bush supporter, huh? :wink:


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and your old lady has just gone down!" ~~ Zappa




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Edited by Delinquentes (03/14/06 04:12 PM)


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Offlinemogur
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Re: Wikipedia - Dikaryon [Re: Delinquentes]
    #5400781 - 03/14/06 09:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Let me try to describe some of the technical terms in a less technical way (I hope).

In the Fungi Kingdom the two Divisions that concern us are the Sac Fungi (Ascomycota, from Greek for 'bag'), and the Club Fungi (Basidiomycota, for 'little pedestal'). Ascomycetes include some mushrooms, morels, truffles, lichen, and yeasts. Ascospores are ejected from a sac like structure (ascus) on the mature fruit (ascocarp). Basidiomycetes include most mushrooms, shelf fungi, puffballs, smuts, and rusts. Basidiospores are dropped from a club like structure (basidium) on the mature fruit (basidiocarp), on the margins of their gills.

Psilocybes are all club fungi and they have a very strange sex life. Their spores contain only one nucleus per cell (monokyratic), and germinate into a threadlike tube (hypha), only about 5 microns wide. This strand grows by tip extension until a copy of the haploid nucleus (single set of chromosomes) is produced and a new cell is created by growing a cross wall (septum) between the two nuclei. Branching also occurs, and the resulting mass of hyphae forms the mycelium. These monokyratic hyphae are relatively short-lived and they grow outward searching for food and a suitable hypha mate. They're young, dumb, and full of DNA. This is the stage that EonTan and RogerRabbit were discussing when referring to the percentage of inter and intra strain compatibility. The strange part (at least to us animals) is that when two hyphae fuse to form a diakryotic hypha, their nuclei remain separate (diakryotic = two sets of chromosomes in separate nuclei). The majority of their lives are spent in this form, and in the right circumstances, can survive for a couple thousand years. Weirdly, even though they are shacking up, there is no copulation (bumping uglies) at this stage of their lives.

If they start to run out of food and/or sense that it is getting cold, however, they then form fruit bodies to create spores that are capable of dispersion. Finally, here is where sexual recombination rolls the dice and produces millions of new spores that await dispersion, germination, and continuation of the cycle. The two nuclei merge finally and the resulting cell is replicated once and split twice, creating four haploid cells, with slightly different blueprints than their parent. The parent mycelium continues, however, and can repeat several episodes of producing fruit bodies, but eventually through the aging process (tell me about it), the mycelium loses its vigor and dies. Boo, bummer, bad trip, .... fuck Mary


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Offline_Lucid_
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Re: Wikipedia - Dikaryon [Re: mogur]
    #5402004 - 03/15/06 03:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

how very interesting, now a question, when you take a fruit and clone that, and the mycelium is colonizing some new substrate, is that diakryotic, or one single one being the merger of the two from before? or are you saying the genetic information is only merged at the spore level? kind of like the mycelium is in one long forplay and doesnt finish up and merge the dna until the end? where those spores are like the egg?


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The believer is happy, the doubter is wise
- Hungarian proverb


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Offlinemogur
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Re: Wikipedia - Dikaryon [Re: _Lucid_]
    #5402117 - 03/15/06 06:10 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'm just a layman trying to learn a new subject, here, so don't take my opinion too seriously. But, yes, only diakryotic mycelium can produce the fruit body. When the two early monokryotic hyphae with one set of chromosomes each, and one nucleus each, merge, they form the diakryotic hypha that now has two nuclei. This hypha grows just like its monokryotic parents did, with tip elongation, cell division and branching, but now it copies two nuclei instead of just one each time it forms a new cell. Even though the two nuclei in each cell remain separate, the die has been cast and they are committed to eventual sexual union and genetic recombination when they will produce spores by cell division.

The analogy to human fertilization of the egg takes place in shrooms when the two monokyrotic hyphae join in a lifelong commitment, even though actual sexual union happens way down the road, and only to certain cells on the gills of the mature fruit body. It's like the egg and the sperm decide to grow up first, make a bunch of copies of themselves along the way, and when they are adults, assign some of their copies to mate and produce unique, new eggs and sperm. The die is cast when the first two hyphae get engaged, but the genetic outcome still isn't set until each individual spore making cell in the basidia rolls the dice. The combinations resulting from just these two types of dice are almost limitless, because each die has way more than six possibilities.

EDIT: Missed your first question. It's called cloning, but it is unlike how we clone animals. When we clone animals, we genetically manipulate the dna from an existing individual into an embryonic cell, in order to create a new copy from scratch. In shrooms, cloning is simply taking a small portion of diakyrotic mycelium and allowing it to grow in a new substrate. The results are similar, because in both cases you end up with a new individual with the same dna. The difference is that the mushroom clone is really a continuation of growth and the new individual carries over the 'aging history' from the original. If you continue to clone mycelia sequentially, it will lose vigor and grow old. Aging must provide some evolutionary advantage by clearing the way for the new genetic variations, I guess. The expletive at the end of my last post was motivated by my age.


Edited by mogur (03/15/06 06:49 AM)


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: Wikipedia - Dikaryon [Re: mogur]
    #5402272 - 03/15/06 08:55 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

hey mogur, your mention of puffballs reminds me of when i was a kid. i used to live in another state andi would stomp those things and they would explode in a poof of spores (poison gas!). it was awesome.


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Offline_Lucid_
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Re: Wikipedia - Dikaryon [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5404986 - 03/15/06 08:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

again mogur, very interesting, i wonder how the age is stored, like how itk nows how old it is, and is this the same with plants? ive cloned plants before, and for plants that generaly have an age limit, can you keep snipping the tops off and transplanting them, or will it get to the point where it will no longer keep going? i understand why complex organisims like animals cant keep going because organs wear down after time, but if its the same with plants and fungi, if there was a way to isolate why and how it keeps track of its age, and manipulate that, maybe one day using these less complex organisms can be used as a steping stone to elongating the life of cells and organs in more complex organisms.


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The believer is happy, the doubter is wise
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Offlinemogur
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Re: Wikipedia - Dikaryon [Re: _Lucid_]
    #5405383 - 03/15/06 09:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

The mechanism of aging is of course unknown to us right now, but I imagine it is similar to any other characteristic that is genetically controlled. DNA probably sends a chemical message through enzymes to trigger aging behavior. Since it has a gradual onset, the message is likely to be an accumulative chemical gradient. Wearing out of various organs undoubtedly has some role in this process, but it doesn't strike me as a major factor. The reason I'm skeptical is because closely related species (genetically) often have widely different lifespans. That seems to favor the idea that genetics is the most active factor.

Also, those species that are preyed upon heavily seem to develop short life spans as a way of over-coming that disadvantage. It seems beneficial for them to invest in 'short production runs', at the expense of longevity. As a hypothetical example, let's say a gene pops up in the population for the over production of adrenaline. That may give individuals more strength, but assume that it also eventually causes liver failure. In this case, who cares? The number of older individuals is reduced by predation, anyway, so this characteristic gets selected for. Those types of issues could possibly explain why we get old.


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