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KingOftheThing
the cool fool
Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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do right wingers really support fascism?
#5401445 - 03/14/06 10:38 PM (18 years, 18 days ago) |
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so im reading a bunch of reviews for the upcoming movie "V for Vendetta". the plot is basically a rebel guy striking back against a 1984 style fascist govt. all the reviews of the movie, looking at it as just a movie are positive. then u h ave the negative reviews all from right wingers bashing the movie for its political messages. now if its a movie against fascism why would these righties care? i know we call you guys fascists as kind of a joke, just like u call us commies. i dont really support comunism though, im not looking to wait on line for bred. do you righties really see fascism as a valid form of govt?? if so, thats really fucking scary. why are righties so offended at fascism bashing?? shit, didnt we fight a war against a fascist (wwII)?? lol, maybe in the warped minds of present day righties they would have suported hitler.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#5401531 - 03/14/06 11:03 PM (18 years, 18 days ago) |
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Dammit! I really want to see that movie, but it doesn't open here until Friday! And yet lucky kids on the internet are already posting complainant reviews...darn my luck.
Anyway, I would suspect the reviews have more to do with the present political climate than anything else. It's like those reviews that came out after Star Wars Episode III claiming that Emperor was clearly an extreme charicature of President Bush (using security and safety as an excuse for an unnecessary war). I didn't think that was the case, and I think it was a pretty silly notion (given that it had already been established that the empire was going to take over back during the original movies in the 1970s).
That said, as someone who doesn't hold what I would call "mainstream liberal values", it's very easy to believe that the media, and in particular Hollywood, is constantly assaulting your beliefs.
I happen to believe in the free market, and during the 1940s and 1950s, it wasn't unheard of to have movies where company presidents or executives were lauded as entrepreneurial heros (Executive Suite, 1954, or the Fountainhead, 1949). When was the last time you have seen Hollywood portray any for-profit venture as beneficial these days? Now the companies are all "evil empires" and executives are either mindless automatons or evil emperors.
Similarly, Hollywood is never going to portray someone with clearly conservative values as a hero, it's just not going to be done. A Hollywood hero saves the poor, the working man, the environment, and he does it by hitting out at the establishment.
As such, it's not hard for someone to feel that they are under assault even when they aren't. Movies that were genuinely made to tell a story, and not for an underlying political statement, are misconstrued in an individual's mind because the status quo is in such disagreement with his own personal beliefs.
It's similar to how middle east extremists believe that they are "under assault" by Britney Spears, except...well...not so...uh...extreme. When the dominant culture in the genre constantly speaks against against your beliefs, you begin to assume that the entirety of the genre must be against you, and interpret all of the genre's media accordingly.
Thus, I don't think it's really fair to say that "right wingers" today would support Hitler when they complain about V for Vendetta, they're just overreacting in response to larger trends in Hollywood.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#5401968 - 03/15/06 01:41 AM (18 years, 18 days ago) |
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yes...
-------------------- "anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool
Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Annapurna1]
#5402427 - 03/15/06 08:05 AM (18 years, 18 days ago) |
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id like to hear from a rightie
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#5404164 - 03/15/06 03:40 PM (18 years, 17 days ago) |
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The liberals are the real fascists liberal position- government is all fascist position- government is all Notice the similarity?
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5404241 - 03/15/06 03:58 PM (18 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: The liberals are the real fascists liberal position- government is all fascist position- government is all Notice the similarity?
A fascist was someone who came to your house in the middle of the night, bashed down your door, dragged your kids off into the night because your aunt was Jewish and that meant you were part of a liberal Zionist conspiracy...
How is that the same thing as wanting to grant women access to abortions if they want to and allowing homosexual couples to marry if they want to?
Or maybe its that taxing the wealthiest of our citizens a larger percent than the poorest of our citizens is commiting a "holocaust" against those unfortunate souls who will have to turn down the heat in the pools at their mountain homes to afford that tax hike! What victims of atrocity the rich are! How foolish we are to have a holocaust memorial when this is going on!
People are so ignorant of what life under hitler was like
-------------------- Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5404288 - 03/15/06 04:07 PM (18 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: The liberals are the real fascists liberal position- government is all fascist position- government is all Notice the similarity?
Where do you get your definition of "liberal"?
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: trendal]
#5404297 - 03/15/06 04:09 PM (18 years, 17 days ago) |
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Probably the same place KOTT got his definition of "right wing".
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Redstorm]
#5404319 - 03/15/06 04:14 PM (18 years, 17 days ago) |
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touch
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Redstorm]
#5404320 - 03/15/06 04:14 PM (18 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: Probably the same place KOTT got his definition of "right wing".
My thoughts exactly.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Posts: 44,175
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Silversoul]
#5404331 - 03/15/06 04:16 PM (18 years, 17 days ago) |
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The language of politics has been bastardized so badly in the past couple hundred years that it is nearly impossible to link today's meaning of words with their classical meanings. See: liberalism, republicanism, etc.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Posts: 81,741
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: gluke bastid]
#5404451 - 03/15/06 04:42 PM (18 years, 17 days ago) |
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Well that was almost coherent. The fact that Hitler was a socialist and Mussolini was a a fascist and you can't tell the difference speaks volumes.
Abortion- I think Roe v Wade was a brilliant and well thought piece of legislation
Homo weddings- I don't give a fuck what they do. I don't think the government should be involved in marriage of any kind except to supply judges in civil disputes stemming from their dissolution.
I'm more right wing than Republicans. Government go home. Mostly.
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#5404661 - 03/15/06 05:23 PM (18 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
im not looking to wait on line for bred. do you righties really see fascism as a valid form of govt?? if so, thats really fucking scary. why are righties so offended at fascism bashing?? shit, didnt we fight a war against a fascist (wwII)?? lol, maybe in the warped minds of present day righties they would have suported hitler.
I think they do not like the whole terrorism as a means to an end theme. Does that make sense or am I just crazy?
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wilshire
free radical
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Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#5404677 - 03/15/06 05:26 PM (18 years, 17 days ago) |
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fascism is one of many different flavors of collectivism. some are considered 'left' , some 'right'. fascism, for whatever reason, is considered 'right'. i think that most of us here agree that the left/right political spectrum is bogus.
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Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5405429 - 03/15/06 07:43 PM (18 years, 17 days ago) |
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5408580 - 03/16/06 01:58 PM (18 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Well that was almost coherent. The fact that Hitler was a socialist and Mussolini was a a fascist and you can't tell the difference speaks volumes.
What speaks more volumes is that you are comfortable labelling Hitler a socialist. You shouldn't blow the history whistle on me when it is clear that all you know about fascism is patched together from shoddy memories of that modern european history class you took however many years ago.
Hitler was not a socialist. The misconception that exists in your mind probably stems from the fact that the Nazis were called the National Socialist Party. The only thing socialist about Hitler was that he created a large number of government sponsored work programs to get his economy going again. Yes, the third Reich officially was an opposition to the model of a more or less free capitalist state under democracy. They instead wholeheartedly believed in the state control of almost every aspect of life. But business boomed under the third reich and the battle against class inequalities was never an issue. The real issue was might making right, and the ever present battle against those who would seek to weaken the German state with marxism, intellectualism, judaism, or anything else that didn't fit into the master plan.
Beyond that, Hitler took every facet of fascism farther than Mussolini (who started the movement) did. He held absolute power over the entire country after declaring himself supreme ruler...not an aspect of socialism. He declared the German people the master race meant to rule the entire world, whereas socialism seeks to unite all people of the world in ideology regardless of ethnicity. He declared war on the Soviet Union, and let's net forget when Hitler set fire to the Reichstag so he could blame the communists and have all the party leaders arrested. Let's also not forget the pogroms, holocaust, and attempt to take over the world.
The third Reich was all about fascism. They were about an absolutist, Militaristic state with one fuhrer working behind a Nationalistic, aggressive image of world domination and obliteration of the enemy: democracy, communism, judaism and people of color.
You seem very label-happy, zappa. It doesn't matter what Hitler called himself. He was a fascist by any historian's definition.
-------------------- Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#5410449 - 03/16/06 10:09 PM (18 years, 16 days ago) |
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I think those who fall in line with the neo-conservatives are close to fascism, but those rightwing libertarians and real conservatives (barry goldwater types) are not fascists at all.
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beatnicknick
The Innovator
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Vvellum]
#5412108 - 03/17/06 10:18 AM (18 years, 16 days ago) |
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neocons resemble butter and cheese, i'nt dat right francis?
-------------------- I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: gluke bastid]
#5414987 - 03/18/06 01:24 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
He held absolute power over the entire country after declaring himself supreme ruler...not an aspect of socialism.
What? Socialism requires consolidation of power and dictatorship. It amazes me that in this day and age people still think socialism is just something that can happen when everyone is nice to each other. Capitalism is what happens when people are given freedom. Socialism needs to be dictated by a ruling power.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Catalysis]
#5415121 - 03/18/06 03:20 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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What? Socialism requires consolidation of power and dictatorship
Come again?
Harold Wilson was a dictator?
Capitalism is what happens when people are given freedom
But not the freedom to breath clean air if it inteferes with profits.
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Xanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody
Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Catalysis]
#5415142 - 03/18/06 03:51 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Catalysis said: What? Socialism requires consolidation of power and dictatorship. ... Capitalism is what happens when people are given freedom. Socialism needs to be dictated by a ruling power.
Quote:
Wikipedia said: Socialism is an ideology of a social and economic system in which the means of production are collectively owned and administered democratically by all of society.
Excuse me?
-------------------- If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
Edited by Xanthas (03/18/06 03:52 AM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Xanthas]
#5415279 - 03/18/06 07:27 AM (18 years, 15 days ago) |
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And thus a plurality of that society becomes the ruling party. I see no inconsistency or assertion that the ruling power be an individual or a small group. Tyranny of the majority and all
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Xanthas]
#5416315 - 03/18/06 03:44 PM (18 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Wikipedia said: Socialism is an ideology of a social and economic system in which the means of production are collectively owned and administered democratically by all of society.
Excuse me?
In other words, socialism is the dictatorship of a class to which full power over the economy and means of production are given. I was not discussing utopian socialism because that does not exist. You are excused.
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Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Catalysis]
#5416928 - 03/18/06 07:25 PM (18 years, 14 days ago) |
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there are networks of businesses that operate voluntarily under social guidelines and they require no dictator. www.parecon.org
not all "socialism" features a centralized economy.
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zorbman
blarrr
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#5417639 - 03/18/06 11:38 PM (18 years, 14 days ago) |
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Without the restraining force of liberalism, conservatives would become fascists.
With the restraining force of conservatism, liberals would become socialists.
Attain to the middle path, grasshopper.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Economist
in training
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Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Vvellum]
#5418384 - 03/19/06 10:44 AM (18 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
bi0 said: I think those who fall in line with the neo-conservatives are close to fascism
Really?
I just don't think this can be the case at all. I don't know of anything in the neocon platform that looks even remotely like fascism, with the possible exception of taking pride in the United States.
Fascism requires the regimentation of society for the greater good of the nation/race. That doesn't sound like anything in the current neocon platform. I don't really see a racial agenda in Bush's government, if anything the Democrats are more racist these days (look at Senator Clinton's stance on immigration compared with President Bush's).
The rest of the neocon agenda has to do with turning the Middle East into a set of democratic nations. They may be doing this the wrong way, but that doesn't make them fascists. Look at any of GW's speeches on the spread of democracy, they honestly look like something Woodrow Wilson would have said 100 years ago. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he blatantly ripped off a lot of the rhetoric. Was Woodrow Wilson a fascist? If he was that's news to me.
Finally, I just haven't seen any steps taken to regiment out daily lives for the purpose of promoting the greater good of the nation/race, so I just don't see where you're coming from.
Now, the neocons may be militarists. In fact, that's probably without a doubt. But fascists? No way.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: zorbman]
#5418391 - 03/19/06 10:49 AM (18 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said: Without the restraining force of liberalism, conservatives would become fascists.
With the restraining force of conservatism, liberals would become socialists.
Sorry, I don't buy it. If you look at a place like Italy, you have communists and fascists in the same parliament, as well as everything in between. My beliefs are not dependent on what other people believe.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5418407 - 03/19/06 10:56 AM (18 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Abortion- I think Roe v Wade was a brilliant and well thought piece of legislation
Legislation?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: shroomydan]
#5419333 - 03/19/06 04:38 PM (18 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
shroomydan said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Abortion- I think Roe v Wade was a brilliant and well thought piece of legislation
Legislation?
Yep, legislation. As in the Supreme Court had no business making it but I would hope that our elected representatives would.
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Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Economist]
#5419482 - 03/19/06 05:22 PM (18 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
I don't know of anything in the neocon platform that looks even remotely like fascism, with the possible exception of taking pride in the United States.
what "platform" do you speak of?
neo-conservatives are close to fascism in their desire to expand U.S. federal government hegemony well beyond its borders and bring about an American empire nearly by any means necessary - even if that means undermining democracy.
Quote:
Fascism requires the regimentation of society for the greater good of the nation/race. That doesn't sound like anything in the current neocon platform. I don't really see a racial agenda in Bush's government, if anything the Democrats are more racist these days (look at Senator Clinton's stance on immigration compared with President Bush's).
neo-conservatives clearly have a nationalist outlook on the US - America is purely good and the rest of the world is purely evil and begs America's liberation. Any strain of liberal thought has corrupted the moral landscape and the role of the neo-conservative (as Strauss taught) was create these fairy-tales to draw the masses toward the light of a nationalist, Christian morality, so to speak.
Quote:
The rest of the neocon agenda has to do with turning the Middle East into a set of democratic nations. They may be doing this the wrong way, but that doesn't make them fascists. Look at any of GW's speeches on the spread of democracy, they honestly look like something Woodrow Wilson would have said 100 years ago. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he blatantly ripped off a lot of the rhetoric. Was Woodrow Wilson a fascist? If he was that's news to me.
I wouldnt consider George Bush a strong example of neo-conservativism.
The difference between Wilson and the neo-conservatives is Wilson wanted to spread democracy via international organizations and treaties. Neo-conservatives do so through empire-building, lies, and undermining democracy itself by bypassing any checks-and-balances that might hinder this so-called conquest. Keep in mind the utter disdain of democracy found within fascism.
Was Wilson a fascist? No. Are neo-conservatives fascists? No. But both are close on the spectrum - much closer to most common right-wingers. That's my point and my answer to the question of this thread.
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nonick
Stranger
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Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Vvellum]
#5419645 - 03/19/06 05:57 PM (18 years, 13 days ago) |
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all people who use violence to achieve their goals are fascists. left and right wing alike.
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