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OfflineXanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Catalysis]
    #5415142 - 03/18/06 03:51 AM (18 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
What? Socialism requires consolidation of power and dictatorship.
...
Capitalism is what happens when people are given freedom. Socialism needs to be dictated by a ruling power.




Quote:

Wikipedia said:
Socialism is an ideology of a social and economic system in which the means of production are collectively owned and administered democratically by all of society.




Excuse me?


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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.

Edited by Xanthas (03/18/06 03:52 AM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5415279 - 03/18/06 07:27 AM (18 years, 14 days ago)

And thus a plurality of that society becomes the ruling party. I see no inconsistency or assertion that the ruling power be an individual or a small group. Tyranny of the majority and all


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5416315 - 03/18/06 03:44 PM (18 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Wikipedia said:
Socialism is an ideology of a social and economic system in which the means of production are collectively owned and administered democratically by all of society.

Excuse me?




In other words, socialism is the dictatorship of a class to which full power over the economy and means of production are given. I was not discussing utopian socialism because that does not exist. You are excused.

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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Catalysis]
    #5416928 - 03/18/06 07:25 PM (18 years, 14 days ago)

there are networks of businesses that operate voluntarily under social guidelines and they require no dictator. www.parecon.org

not all "socialism" features a centralized economy.

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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #5417639 - 03/18/06 11:38 PM (18 years, 14 days ago)

Without the restraining force of liberalism, conservatives would become fascists.

With the restraining force of conservatism, liberals would become socialists.

Attain to the middle path, grasshopper.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflineEconomist
in training
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5418384 - 03/19/06 10:44 AM (18 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
I think those who fall in line with the neo-conservatives are close to fascism



:eek:

Really?

I just don't think this can be the case at all.  I don't know of anything in the neocon platform that looks even remotely like fascism, with the possible exception of taking pride in the United States.

Fascism requires the regimentation of society for the greater good of the nation/race.  That doesn't sound like anything in the current neocon platform.  I don't really see a racial agenda in Bush's government, if anything the Democrats are more racist these days (look at Senator Clinton's stance on immigration compared with President Bush's).

The rest of the neocon agenda has to do with turning the Middle East into a set of democratic nations.  They may be doing this the wrong way, but that doesn't make them fascists.  Look at any of GW's speeches on the spread of democracy, they honestly look like something Woodrow Wilson would have said 100 years ago.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he blatantly ripped off a lot of the rhetoric.  Was Woodrow Wilson a fascist?  If he was that's news to me.

Finally, I just haven't seen any steps taken to regiment out daily lives for the purpose of promoting the greater good of the nation/race, so I just don't see where you're coming from.

Now, the neocons may be militarists.  In fact, that's probably without a doubt.  But fascists?  No way.

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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: zorbman]
    #5418391 - 03/19/06 10:49 AM (18 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Without the restraining force of liberalism, conservatives would become fascists.

With the restraining force of conservatism, liberals would become socialists.



Sorry, I don't buy it. If you look at a place like Italy, you have communists and fascists in the same parliament, as well as everything in between. My beliefs are not dependent on what other people believe.


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Invisibleshroomydan
exshroomerite
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5418407 - 03/19/06 10:56 AM (18 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Abortion- I think Roe v Wade was a brilliant and well thought piece of legislation





Legislation?  :bongload:

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: shroomydan]
    #5419333 - 03/19/06 04:38 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

shroomydan said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Abortion- I think Roe v Wade was a brilliant and well thought piece of legislation





Legislation?  :bongload:




Yep, legislation.  As in the Supreme Court had no business making it but I would hope that our elected representatives would.


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Economist]
    #5419482 - 03/19/06 05:22 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

I don't know of anything in the neocon platform that looks even remotely like fascism, with the possible exception of taking pride in the United States.




what "platform" do you speak of?

neo-conservatives are close to fascism in their desire to expand U.S. federal government hegemony well beyond its borders and bring about an American empire nearly by any means necessary - even if that means undermining democracy.

Quote:

Fascism requires the regimentation of society for the greater good of the nation/race. That doesn't sound like anything in the current neocon platform. I don't really see a racial agenda in Bush's government, if anything the Democrats are more racist these days (look at Senator Clinton's stance on immigration compared with President Bush's).




neo-conservatives clearly have a nationalist outlook on the US - America is purely good and the rest of the world is purely evil and begs America's liberation. Any strain of liberal thought has corrupted the moral landscape and the role of the neo-conservative (as Strauss taught) was create these fairy-tales to draw the masses toward the light of a nationalist, Christian morality, so to speak.

Quote:


The rest of the neocon agenda has to do with turning the Middle East into a set of democratic nations. They may be doing this the wrong way, but that doesn't make them fascists. Look at any of GW's speeches on the spread of democracy, they honestly look like something Woodrow Wilson would have said 100 years ago. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he blatantly ripped off a lot of the rhetoric. Was Woodrow Wilson a fascist? If he was that's news to me.




I wouldnt consider George Bush a strong example of neo-conservativism.

The difference between Wilson and the neo-conservatives is Wilson wanted to spread democracy via international organizations and treaties. Neo-conservatives do so through empire-building, lies, and undermining democracy itself by bypassing any checks-and-balances that might hinder this so-called conquest. Keep in mind the utter disdain of democracy found within fascism.

Was Wilson a fascist? No. Are neo-conservatives fascists? No. But both are close on the spectrum - much closer to most common right-wingers. That's my point and my answer to the question of this thread.

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Offlinenonick
Stranger

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 537
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: do right wingers really support fascism? [Re: Vvellum]
    #5419645 - 03/19/06 05:57 PM (18 years, 13 days ago)

all people who use violence to achieve their goals are fascists. left and right wing alike.

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