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InvisibleAlex213
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Iraq "an unbelievable mess"
    #5397800 - 03/14/06 06:31 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

US postwar Iraq strategy a mess, Blair was told

Senior British diplomatic and military staff gave Tony Blair explicit warnings three years ago that the US was disastrously mishandling the occupation of Iraq, according to leaked memos.
John Sawers, Mr Blair's envoy in Baghdad in the aftermath of the invasion, sent a series of confidential memos to Downing Street in May and June 2003 cataloguing US failures. With unusual frankness, he described the US postwar administration, led by the retired general Jay Garner, as "an unbelievable mess" and said "Garner and his top team of 60-year-old retired generals" were "well-meaning but out of their depth".

That assessment is reinforced by Major General Albert Whitley, the most senior British officer with the US land forces. Gen Whitley, in another memo later that summer, expressed alarm that the US-British coalition was in danger of losing the peace. "We may have been seduced into something we might be inclined to regret. Is strategic failure a possibility? The answer has to be 'yes'," he concluded.

The British memos identified a series of US failures that contained the seeds of the present insurgency and anarchy.

The mistakes include:

? A lack of interest by the US commander, General Tommy Franks, in the post-invasion phase.

? The presence in the capital of the US Third Infantry Division, which took a heavyhanded approach to security.

? Squandering the initial sympathy of Iraqis.

? Bechtel, the main US civilian contractor, moving too slowly to reconnect basic services, such as electricity and water.

? Failure to deal with health hazards, such as 40% of Baghdad's sewage pouring into the Tigris and rubbish piling up in the streets.

? Sacking of many of Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath party, even though many of them held relatively junior posts.

Mr Sawers, in a memo titled Iraq: What's Going Wrong, written on May 11, four days after he had arrived in Baghdad, is uncompromising about the US administration in Baghdad. He wrote: "No leadership, no strategy, no coordination, no structure and inaccessible to ordinary Iraqis."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1730427,00.html


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5398763 - 03/14/06 01:37 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I think probably the biggest mistake in Iraq ever made was the dissolving of the iraqi army and the little effort to seal off and protect ammo dumps. Which i honestly dont blame on the soldiers since their wasnt many troops to guard a area the size of texas.


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5398844 - 03/14/06 01:54 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Here's the first part of an article found here -- http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/03/myths_of_iraq.html




During a recent visit to Baghdad, I saw an enormous failure. On the part of our media. The reality in the streets, day after day, bore little resemblance to the sensational claims of civil war and disaster in the headlines.

No one with first-hand experience of Iraq would claim the country's in rosy condition, but the situation on the ground is considerably more promising than the American public has been led to believe. Lurid exaggerations and instant myths obscure real, if difficult, progress.

I left Baghdad more optimistic than I was before this visit. While cynicism, political bias and the pressure of a 24/7 news cycle accelerate a race to the bottom in reporting, there are good reasons to be soberly hopeful about Iraq's future.

Much could still go wrong. The Arab genius for failure could still spoil everything. We've made grave mistakes. Still, it's difficult to understand how any first-hand observer could declare that Iraq's been irrevocably "lost."

Consider just a few of the inaccuracies served up by the media:

Claims of civil war. In the wake of the bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra, a flurry of sectarian attacks inspired wild media claims of a collapse into civil war. It didn't happen. Driving and walking the streets of Baghdad, I found children playing and, in most neighborhoods, business as usual. Iraq can be deadly, but, more often, it's just dreary.

Iraqi disunity. Factional differences are real, but overblown in the reporting. Few Iraqis support calls for religious violence. After the Samarra bombing, only rogue militias and criminals responded to the demagogues' calls for vengeance. Iraqis refused to play along, staging an unrecognized triumph of passive resistance.

Expanding terrorism. On the contrary, foreign terrorists, such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, have lost ground. They've alienated Iraqis of every stripe. Iraqis regard the foreigners as murderers, wreckers and blasphemers, and they want them gone. The Samarra attack may, indeed, have been a tipping point--against the terrorists.

Hatred of the U.S. military. If anything surprised me in the streets of Baghdad, it was the surge in the popularity of U.S. troops among both Shias and Sunnis. In one slum, amid friendly adult waves, children and teenagers cheered a U.S. Army patrol as we passed. Instead of being viewed as occupiers, we're increasingly seen as impartial and well-intentioned.

The appeal of the religious militias. They're viewed as mafias. Iraqis want them disarmed and disbanded. Just ask the average citizen.

The failure of the Iraqi army. Instead, the past month saw a major milestone in the maturation of Iraq's military. During the mini-crisis that followed the Samarra bombing, the Iraqi army put over 100,000 soldiers into the country's streets. They defused budding confrontations and calmed the situation without killing a single civilian. And Iraqis were proud to have their own army protecting them. The Iraqi army's morale soared as a result of its success.

Reconstruction efforts have failed. Just not true. The American goal was never to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure in its entirety. Iraqis have to do that. Meanwhile, slum-dwellers utterly neglected by Saddam Hussein's regime are getting running water and sewage systems for the first time. The Baathist regime left the country in a desolate state while Saddam built palaces. The squalor has to be seen to be believed. But the hopeless now have hope.

The electricity system is worse than before the war. Untrue again. The condition of the electric grid under the old regime was appalling. Yet, despite insurgent attacks, the newly revamped system produced 5,300 megawatts last summer--a full thousand megawatts more than the peak under Saddam Hussein. Shortages continue because demand soared--newly free Iraqis went on a buying spree, filling their homes with air conditioners, appliances and the new national symbol, the satellite dish. Nonetheless, satellite photos taken during the hours of darkness show Baghdad as bright as Damascus.

Plenty of serious problems remain in Iraq, from bloodthirsty terrorism to the unreliability of the police. Iran and Syria indulge in deadly mischief. The infrastructure lags generations behind the country's needs. Corruption is widespread. Tribal culture is pernicious. Women?s rights are threatened. And there's no shortage of trouble-making demagogues.

Nonetheless, the real story of the civil-war-that-wasn't is one of the dog that didn't bark. Iraqis resisted the summons to retributive violence. Mundane life prevailed. After a day and a half of squabbling, the political factions returned to the negotiating table. Iraqis increasingly take responsibility for their own security, easing the burden on U.S. forces. And the people of Iraq want peace, not a reign of terror.

But the foreign media have become a destructive factor, extrapolating daily crises from minor incidents. Part of this is ignorance. Some of it is willful. None of it is helpful.






More at the link. Well worth clicking to read the last few paragraphs.


Phred


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5399185 - 03/14/06 03:29 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Claims of civil war. In the wake of the bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra, a flurry of sectarian attacks inspired wild media claims of a collapse into civil war. It didn't happen. Driving and walking the streets of Baghdad, I found children playing and, in most neighborhoods, business as usual. Iraq can be deadly, but, more often, it's just dreary.




To me this seems like political correctness. What exactly kind of war would you label Iraq. In my definition ive always considered wars that involved rebels or insurgents fighting a government or coalition always considered these things Civil Wars.
Of course you will see children playing Iraq has seen violence for decades sometimes you kind of get used to it.

Quote:

Iraqi disunity. Factional differences are real, but overblown in the reporting. Few Iraqis support calls for religious violence. After the Samarra bombing, only rogue militias and criminals responded to the demagogues' calls for vengeance. Iraqis refused to play along, staging an unrecognized triumph of passive resistance.





Their is 3 insurgent elements in Iraq. Their is the Nationalist insurgents like the various Muslim Brotherhood organizations who will not attack Iraqi Police but only Coalition forces. You have the religious Sunni/Salafist Factions mostly based out of the Anbar province in Ramadi and Mosul, and of course you have Al Qaeda in Iraq led by Zarqawi whose men only number in the hundreds now. He's responsible for most of the sectarian violence.

The Iraqi resistance can possibly grow because of the massive amount of propaganda that insurgents display that is available on the internet in baghdad. More insurgencies and terrorist groups are being formed all with different agendas. Situations like these could backfire on Coalition forces especially in conjunction with military action in Iran.

Quote:

Expanding terrorism. On the contrary, foreign terrorists, such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, have lost ground. They've alienated Iraqis of every stripe. Iraqis regard the foreigners as murderers, wreckers and blasphemers, and they want them gone. The Samarra attack may, indeed, have been a tipping point--against the terrorists.




I wouldnt disagree with this argument. Its no secret that most of the Sunni muslims want the shiias to fight with them against the coaltion. Which is why insurgents havent targetted Sadr at all even AQII had once asked a truce from him.When the Mosque was blown up Sadr and the iraqi people immediately knew this was Zarqawi.

Quote:

Hatred of the U.S. military. If anything surprised me in the streets of Baghdad, it was the surge in the popularity of U.S. troops among both Shias and Sunnis. In one slum, amid friendly adult waves, children and teenagers cheered a U.S. Army patrol as we passed. Instead of being viewed as occupiers, we're increasingly seen as impartial and well-intentioned.




Completely Anecdotal. I dont live in Iraq but i can only speculate and with good reason that Iraqi's dont really like us all that much.

Quote:

The appeal of the religious militias. They're viewed as mafias. Iraqis want them disarmed and disbanded. Just ask the average citizen.


Ahaha. Sure just ask the people we are putting into power in Iraq, PKK,SCIRI? Sadrs group. They all have militia's over there.

Ill address more issues when i get back from work.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5399487 - 03/14/06 04:54 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

yes. Iraq is a wonderful place!


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Vvellum]
    #5399611 - 03/14/06 05:27 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

The author's point isn't that Iraq is a wonderful place. He is scrupulous about noting that "grave mistakes" have been made, that there are real factional differences, and that plenty of serious problems remain in Iraq, from terrorism to unreliable police to widespread corruption to tribal culture to threats to women's rights.

His point was to show that many of the media tropes we're getting hammered with are essentially mythical. Rather than ascribe this distortion to willful misrepresentation on the part of the press, he charitably offers an alternate explanation:






"The dangerous nature of journalism in Iraq has created a new phenomenon, the all-powerful local stringer. Unwilling to stray too far from secure facilities and their bodyguards, reporters rely heavily on Iraqi assistance in gathering news. And Iraqi stringers, some of whom have their own political agendas, long ago figured out that Americans prefer bad news to good news. The Iraqi leg-men earn blood money for unbalanced, often-hysterical claims, while the Journalism 101 rule of seeking confirmation from a second source has been discarded in the pathetic race for headlines.

"To enhance their own indispensability, Iraqi stringers exaggerate the danger to Western journalists (which is real enough, but need not paralyze a determined reporter). Dependence on the unverified reports of local hires has become the dirty secret of semi-celebrity journalism in Iraq as Western journalists succumb to a version of Stockholm Syndrome in which they convince themselves that their Iraqi sources and stringers are exceptions to every failing and foible in the Middle East. The mindset resembles the old colonialist conviction that, while other "boys" might lie and steal, our house-boy's a faithful servant.

"The result is that we're being told what Iraqi stringers know they can sell and what distant editors crave, not what's actually happening.

"While there are and have been any number of courageous, ethical journalists reporting from Iraq, others know little more of the reality of the streets than you do. They report what they are told by others, not what they have seen themselves. The result is a distorted, unfair and disheartening picture of a country struggling to rise above its miserable history."







Phred


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5399790 - 03/14/06 06:19 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

His point was to show that many of the media tropes we're getting hammered with are essentially mythical.




mythical? killings such as this seem to occur every few days. hardly a "myth"  :rolleyes:

and what about non-western journalism in Iraq? oh, wait - you cant trust that either because it is so anti-american, right?

face it: Iraq is a fucking mess with no end in site. And the war that you supported has been a failure.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Vvellum]
    #5400008 - 03/14/06 07:01 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

*Shrugs*

You are of course free to regard it as a "mess" if you so choose. But the fact of the matter is that neither you nor I have been there to see for ourselves, so we must decide which reports give a more accurate picture. Peters is far from the first journalist to comment on the "journalism by stringer" phenomenon in Iraq, just the most recent one.

If you swallow uncritically the reports you read in the MSM you are doing yourself a disservice. I suggest you broaden the base of source material to include reports from people who experience things firsthand -- Peters, Michael Yon, a multitude of milblogs, a multitude of Iraqi bloggers -- before satisfying yourself you know enough about the situation to decide the situation is a mess with no end in sight.

Up to you.





Phred


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5400327 - 03/14/06 08:14 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks, but I read plenty of news sources on a regular basis - quit being so presumptuous.

Iraq is a huge mess.

I spoke with a friend of mine who grew up in the Soviet Union. She told me about how her childhood was full of games and running around and how she never remembers going hungry. This does not mean the Soviet Union was not a mess and close to an economic and political collapse. I put little stock in anedotal "blogs" of Iraqi kids playing hop-scotch, rather I pay more attention to stories such as the one I posted above. But, you seem to think such stories are mere myths. Please read the article I linked to and demonstrate the how the story is just "MSM" myth and exaggeration.

and, what of non-western journalists? how does this fit into your analysis of media in Iraq?


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5401625 - 03/15/06 01:40 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Id like to see those Western Bloggers step their asses outside the green zone and than determine how safe that country really is.

Its a sad fact that Security in Iraq is so bad most people of western origin can barely even go out of the green zone without a military convoy.

To me Iraq is calm like a bomb.


Edited by The_Red_Crayon (03/15/06 03:06 AM)


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5402111 - 03/15/06 05:56 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

During a recent visit to Baghdad

Get a grip Phred. Which areas of Baghdad do you think this idiot is going to have visited when westerners are being kidnapped off the streets? Do you think you get a clear idea of what is happening in Baghdad behind the green zone?

Driving and walking the streets of Baghdad

I'd like to know exactly which Baghdad streets this moron "walked" around.

collapse into civil war. It didn't happen.

This is the old game of when do you call a civil war a civil war. All we know is there are attacks being reported every day - and those we hear about will only be the tip of the iceberg.

In one slum, amid friendly adult waves, children and teenagers cheered a U.S. Army patrol as we passed

:grin: :grin: :grin:

Those Iraqis sure know what's good for them don't they  :grin:

I wonder what would have happened to "Ralph" if he hadn't been with an army patrol at the time?

Expanding terrorism

What "terrorism" is he referring to? Was there any "terrorism" in Iraq before the US invaded?

Just ask the average citizen.

Thanks for this penetrating analysis  :rolleyes:

Ya think he means "just ask the average Iraqi citizen allowed into my hotel room behind the green zone"?

The electricity system is worse than before the war. Untrue again.

Bullshit.

UN report shows conditions worse than under Saddam:

http://newstandardnews.net/content/?items=1816

Nonetheless, satellite photos taken during the hours of darkness show Baghdad as bright as Damascus

Perhaps if this fucking idiot had walked outside the green zone he would have noticed that one in three Iraqi families now rely on their own generators and not the electricity grid.

The result is that we're being told what Iraqi stringers know they can sell and what distant editors crave, not what's actually happening.



Oh PLEASE  :rolleyes:


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5402174 - 03/15/06 07:47 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)


Mass grave find fuels sectarian tension in Iraq
By Patrick Cockburn in Amman
Published: 15 March 2006

Iraq moved closer to sectarian civil war as police found the bodies of 87 men killed in Baghdad, many of them showing signs of torture. The dead appear to be Sunni Muslims killed in retaliation for the bombs that slaughtered 58 people and wounded 200 when they exploded in crowded markets in the strongly Shia area of Sadr City.

Some 29 dead men were found yesterday buried in a pit in a playing field. "Some children were playing soccer and they smelt something strong and the police were notified," said a police spokesman. Members of a Shia militia dug in a pit to unearth the bodies. They found that the men had been gagged and bound and were in their underwear. Many of them had been tortured before being shot dead.

A photographer for the Associated Press agency who took pictures of the grave was warned not to publish them. The location of the grave suggests that the dead men were Sunni.

The fear now in Baghdad is that the bombs detonated by Sunni insurgents in Shia neighbourhoods are leading to immediate retaliation against Sunnis.

In another atrocity, 15 bodies of men who had been strangled were found in an abandoned minibus parked between two Sunni districts in west Baghdad. In Sadr City, a further four men were shot in the head and their bodies hanged from electricity pylons. Elsewhere in Baghdad another 40 bodies, both Shia and Sunni, were found said Lt-Col Mohammedawi.

To try to reduce sectarian killings, the Interior Ministry is to enforce a curfew from 8pm tonight to 4pm tomorrow to coincide with the meeting of parliament.

In Sunni districts there is terror of the police commandos, who are seen as death squads capable of arresting, torturing and killing Sunnis simply because of their sectarian identity.

Mr Sadr may be the key to creating a new government since it was his support which determined that Mr Jaafari would be the candidate of the Shia coalition, the United Iraqi Alliance. He has so far called for calm and unity in the wake of the attacks at Samarra and in Sadr City. He has also derided Donald Rumsfeld, the US Defence Secretary, for saying the American military would not intervene to stop a civil war in Iraq. "May God damn you," said Mr Sadr of Mr Rumsfeld. "You said in the past that civil war would break out if you had to withdraw, and now you say that in face of civil war you won't interfere."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article351350.ece


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5402188 - 03/15/06 08:01 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

UN report shows conditions worse than under Saddam

that report was completed almost 2 years ago now.

http://www.iq.undp.org/ILCS/overview.htm


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: wilshire]
    #5402194 - 03/15/06 08:04 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

And?


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5402201 - 03/15/06 08:08 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

so it doesn't prove anything about conditions in march 2006, when the article phred posted, which you are refuting, was published. that survey was a year after the invasion. it's now been almost three.


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Edited by wilshire (03/15/06 08:26 AM)


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: wilshire]
    #5402279 - 03/15/06 09:00 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

so it doesn't prove anything about conditions in march 2006, when the article phred posted, which you are refuting, was published

So can you point out where the author of Phreds article says that his "myths of Iraq" only apply since the UN report of 2004 that showed the "myths" were true?

Do you even know what a "myth" is?

In addition can you provide any evidence to show the UN report is now wrong?

Or is the word of someone from the US army at "realclearpolitics" is all the "evidence" you need?  :rolleyes:


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5402495 - 03/15/06 10:27 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

you made this claim:

UN report shows conditions worse than under Saddam

and cited a year old article that cites a two year old survey. what's more, if you read the survey you will find that it makes no comparison between conditions before and after the invasion.

your source does not support your assertion. plain and simple. you could have found a better source than a year old article that sites a two year old survey that in any case does not make the comparison you're trying to prove.

i found this after a single google search:

electricity hits three year low in iraq

it was written yesterday.


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Edited by wilshire (03/15/06 10:39 AM)


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5403384 - 03/15/06 03:05 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You posted an article about some memos written nearly three years ago, when the coalition troops had been in Iraq around three months --

Quote:

Senior British diplomatic and military staff gave Tony Blair explicit warnings three years ago that the US was disastrously mishandling the occupation of Iraq, according to leaked memos.

John Sawers, Mr Blair's envoy in Baghdad in the aftermath of the invasion, sent a series of confidential memos to Downing Street in May and June 2003 cataloguing US failures.




The article I posted, on the other hand, was written by someone who had just returned from Iraq. I leave it to the readers of the thread to determine which picture more accurately reflects the reality of modern Iraq.

Quote:

Mr Sawers, in a memo titled Iraq: What's Going Wrong, written on May 11, four days after he had arrived in Baghdad, is uncompromising about the US administration in Baghdad.




My oh my. Here we have a fellow writing a memo a whole four days after he arrived on the scene, a month after the fall of Baghdad. How much walking around Baghdad do you figure this guy did, Alex213? Exactly which Baghdad streets did this moron walk around?

I have no doubt the situation in Iraq a month after the fall of Baghdad could arguably be described as "an unbelievable mess". The same is not true today. The article I posted deals with how things are, not how things were -- unlike the UN report you linked in a feeble attempt to rebut Peters's information on electrical production. From the link you provided --

Quote:

The 370-page report evaluating the survey, which was in turn based on interviews conducted with more than 21,000 Iraqi households during the spring and summer of 2004...




That was almost two years ago, Alex213. But the article wilshire linked for us backs up the figures Peters provides exactly -- a rise in generated electrical output from 4400 megawatts to 5300. The article also backs up (in considerably greater detail) Peters's statement that the problem in Baghdad is less a decline in output than a rocketing surge in demand.




Phred


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5403473 - 03/15/06 03:24 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Or is the word of someone from the US army at "realclearpolitics" is all the "evidence" you need?




-- Peters is a retired US Army officer.

-- RealClearPolitics is probably the most balanced political op-ed site on the web. They publish commentary from all sides of the political spectrum, from writers for The Nation, The Guardian, The Australian and The New York Times, to the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Times. They regularly publish op-ed pieces by Naomi Klein, Paul Krugman, E.J. Dionne and even on occasion Noam Chomsky.





Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: wilshire]
    #5407207 - 03/16/06 09:07 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You are missing the point.

How can something be a myth if it was established in a UN report 2 years ago? Do you know what a myth is?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5407209 - 03/16/06 09:09 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Peters is a retired US Army officer

That makes all the difference  :rolleyes:


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5407507 - 03/16/06 11:29 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

How can something be a myth if it was established in a UN report 2 years ago?




By pretending a situation that once existed still exists. Things change. Time marches on. Iraq's maximum generating capacity (as reported by Iraq's Ba'athist ex-regime) pre-March of 2003 was 4400 megawatts. Today Iraq's maximum generating capacity is 7000 megawatts.



Phred


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5407512 - 03/16/06 11:32 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

That makes all the difference




All the difference to what, Alex213? You have had no scruples about providing quotes from both army officers and ex-army officers in many of your previous posts. Are we supposed to disregard their comments? If so, why did you bother to provide them?




Phred


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5408546 - 03/16/06 03:48 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

By pretending a situation that once existed still exists

No, that isn't a myth.

Iraq's maximum generating capacity (as reported by Iraq's Ba'athist ex-regime) pre-March of 2003 was 4400 megawatts. Today Iraq's maximum generating capacity is 7000 megawatts.


Do you realise the "maximum generating capacity" has little to do with the electricity supply people are receiving?


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5408561 - 03/16/06 03:52 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You have had no scruples about providing quotes from both army officers and ex-army officers in many of your previous posts.

Quoting them saying what?

Can you comprehend that a US army officer's opinion on the current state of Iraq is probably not the most reliable information? Seeing as the US army invaded Iraq?


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5408582 - 03/16/06 03:59 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I guess the US launching the biggest air raid since the war a few days after this fucking idiot's article saying how promising things are puts his opinion in perspective.


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5408720 - 03/16/06 04:40 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

myth: (noun)

1 a traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events
- such stories collectively : the heroes of Greek myth

2 a widely held but false belief or idea : he wants to dispel the myth that sea kayaking is too risky or too strenuous; there is a popular myth that big corporations are big people with lots of money
- a misrepresentation of the truth : attacking the party's irresponsible myths about privatization
- a fictitious or imaginary person or thing
- an exaggerated or idealized conception of a person or thing : the book is a scholarly study of the Churchill myth

The points highlighted by Peters fit the definition of myth to a T.

Quote:

Do you realise the "maximum generating capacity" has little to do with the electricity supply people are receiving?




Yes, I do. Do you? Iraqis were not receiving the maximum capacity pre-March 2003 either. In even the best maintained electrical system, maximum capacity is seldom if ever realized -- parts of the grid are almost always offline for maintenance. And Iraq's electrical grid pre-March 2003 could not be realistically described as well-maintained.

The article linked by Wilshire explains that (according to the Ba'athist ex-regime) Iraq's total maximum generating capacity pre-March 2003 totalled 4400 megawatts. Was there ever even a single minute when all 4400 megawatts of that capacity were being simultaneously delivered? Nope. Iraq's present total maximum generating capacity totals 7000 megawatts, of which 5300 megawatts is currently being realized.


Phred


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5408735 - 03/16/06 04:43 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Quoting them saying what?




Usually saying how bad the Americans have screwed up. if army officers (and ex-army officers) are credible when they say things you want to hear, why are they not credible when they say things you don't want to hear?



Phred


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5411063 - 03/17/06 03:11 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

The points highlighted by Peters fit the definition of myth to a T.


Don't be silly. Are you seriously claiming that things that were known to be perfectly true as little as 24 months ago can be described as "myths"?

All because a retired US army officer who spent a day or two in the Green zone says so?

And then the week after the moron leaves saying things are going great the biggest air assault in years is launched just 60 miles north of Baghdad? Does that strike you as a man who knows what he's talking about?

Iraq's total maximum generating capacity pre-March 2003 totalled 4400 megawatts.

That's misrepresenting the truth. Iraq's total under Saddam in 1991 was 9000MW. The total you quote is the amount Saddam was still reaching even after 12 years of severe sanctions and thousands of bombing raids.

Iraq's present total maximum generating capacity totals 7000 megawatts, of which 5300 megawatts is currently being realized.


Still way, way down on Saddams 9000. And as has been pointed out the number of Iraqis receiving reliable electricity supplies is minimal.


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5411083 - 03/17/06 03:19 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Usually saying how bad the Americans have screwed up. if army officers (and ex-army officers) are credible when they say things you want to hear, why are they not credible when they say things you don't want to hear?


I'm sorry but I'm going to have to pin you down on this. What exactly are you referring to? I know your prediliction for misrepresenting the truth and you will need to provide precise examples to back this accusation up.


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5411169 - 03/17/06 03:51 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

*predilection

:wink:


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5411902 - 03/17/06 11:07 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Don't be silly.




It's pretty obvious to the readers of this thread that someone is being silly, Alex213, but it isn't me. It isn't wilshire either. Who does that leave?

Quote:

Are you seriously claiming that things that were known to be perfectly true as little as 24 months ago can be described as "myths"?




And yet again you demonstrate your inability to differentiate between what is and what was. If Peters had written about conditions in Iraq 24 months ago, he wouldn't have made the same points he does in this article written less than a week ago.

It is "a widely held but false idea" that the electrical situation in Iraq today is worse than it was before the war. It is "a misrepresentation of the truth." In other words, a myth.

Quote:

Iraq's total under Saddam in 1991 was 9000MW.




Source, please.

Even if true, it is irrelevant to the point Peters is making. He's not talking about conditions in Iraq before Hussein invaded Kuwait back in 1990 and got beaten like a gong.

Quote:

And as has been pointed out the number of Iraqis receiving reliable electricity supplies is minimal.




Still haven't gotten around to reading the link wilshire provided, I see. In actuality, more Iraqis are receiving reliable electricity than were in 2002.




Phred


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5411920 - 03/17/06 11:14 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

I know your prediliction for misrepresenting the truth and you will need to provide precise examples to back this accusation up.




Well Alex213, all the regulars of this forum know your predilection for not bothering to read your own posts, so they won't be surprised when I provide as an example your opening post in this very thread --

"Senior British diplomatic and military staff gave Tony Blair explicit warnings three years ago that the US was disastrously mishandling the occupation of Iraq, according to leaked memos."

-- and --

"That assessment is reinforced by Major General Albert Whitley, the most senior British officer with the US land forces. Gen Whitley, in another memo later that summer, expressed alarm that the US-British coalition was in danger of losing the peace."



Phred


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5412196 - 03/17/06 12:42 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Phred your facts are scewed, your maximum ideas are in the fryer, and man if I had potatoe for every time you tried slinging that one at me. The fact is everything you just said is backwards, and there is no candy for that from where I come from.

"Well Alex213, all the regulars of this forum know your predilection for not bothering to read your own posts, so they won't be surprised when I provide as an example your opening post in this very thread --"
Totally scewed, Totally Wrong.
I'm Nick McD and I approve this message.


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Edited by beatnicknick (03/17/06 12:44 PM)


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5412987 - 03/17/06 04:08 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

beatnicknick said:
man if I had potatoe for every time you tried slinging that one at me




Wow! Former Vice-President Dan Quayle is a member of our political forum. What an honor!


Edited by RandalFlagg (03/17/06 04:14 PM)


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5415093 - 03/18/06 04:59 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

It's pretty obvious to the readers of this thread that someone is being silly

It certainly is. And you trying to claim something that was true 2 years ago can be described as a "myth" is about as silly as it gets.

It is "a widely held but false idea" that the electrical situation in Iraq today is worse than it was before the war.

This is laughable.

If he'd said "This was true a mere 2 years ago but now I, a retired US army officer, claim it isn't true any longer" it would be more accurate. However that still wouldn't make it a myth.

It is "a misrepresentation of the truth." In other words, a myth.


This is idiocy.

No matter how much you try and stretch reality to fit your fantasy it doesn't work. You cannot describe something that was demonstrably true a mere 2 years ago a myth simply because a retired US army officer says so.

Even if true, it is irrelevant to the point Peters is making. He's not talking about conditions in Iraq before Hussein invaded Kuwait back in 1990

Then you will be able to point out the dates he puts on his claims. Please do so.

He has already been caught out lying by saying it is a myth electricity is worse than it was before the war. The UN proved it was worse just 2 years ago.

Still haven't gotten around to reading the link wilshire provided, I see. In actuality, more Iraqis are receiving reliable electricity than were in 2002.


Actually I'd already read that article at the Guardian before wilshire even posted it.

Incidentally, where did you get your "2002" claim from?

And are you seriously claiming this is impressive? That after 3 years you can only make comparisons with the situation as it was in 2002 after 12 years of sanctions and bombings to knock out the electricity grid? Are you joking?

Here's a section from the source wilshire provided (that you appear not to have read):

"We're living miserably," said housewife Su'ad Hassan, a mother of four and one of millions in Baghdad who have endured three years of mostly powerless days under U.S. occupation.


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5415101 - 03/18/06 05:05 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Well Alex213, all the regulars of this forum know your predilection for not bothering to read your own posts, so they won't be surprised when I provide as an example your opening post in this very thread

This is breathtaking idiocy.

Do you understand context? Can you comprehend that a retired US army officer making wild claims about Iraq for publication on a blog may not be as reliable as secret memos sent by the military commanders on the ground reporting on the reality they face?


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5415118 - 03/18/06 05:18 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Phred your facts are scewed, your maximum ideas are in the fryer, and man if I had potatoe for every time you tried slinging that one at me. The fact is everything you just said is backwards, and there is no candy for that from where I come from.

:grin: :grin:


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5415240 - 03/18/06 08:50 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213, it's quite obvious you are unable to distinguish from past and present. Why this is so doesn't concern me -- it's your problem to deal with, not mine.

Even though I have pointed out repeatedly the essential difference between is and was (that's why they are spelled differently), you are still stubbornly mouthing non sequiturs --

Quote:

He has already been caught out lying by saying it is a myth electricity is worse than it was before the war. The UN proved it was worse just 2 years ago.




For the last time, Peters is not talking about how things were. He's talking about how things are. You -- unable to refute him -- instead continue to ramble on nostalgically about how things used to be.

Quote:

And are you seriously claiming this is impressive? That after 3 years you can only make comparisons with the situation as it was in 2002 after 12 years of sanctions and bombings to knock out the electricity grid? Are you joking?




The myth Peters refutes is that the electricity system in Iraq is worse than before the war. The article wilshire provides -- which you claim to have read -- shows in no uncertain terms that this is not the case. There's a substantial difference (a hair under sixty per cent, actually) between 4400 megawatts and 7000 megawatts. You may not consider increasing a nation's generating capacity by sixty per cent in less than three years to be impressive -- especially in the face of such challenges as "...insurgent attacks, inefficient production, sabotage by extortionists, and other factors." The article you claim to have read later goes into a bit more detail about these other factors --

"They (army engineers) brought in contractors to upgrade installations, but the looting and sabotage went on. Insurgents attacked fuel pipelines. Other Iraqis toppled transmission towers to keep power in their own cities and away from Baghdad."

Even in the face of these challenges, generating capacity has been increased by the equivalent of the output of America's Hoover Dam. If Cuba or Venezuela had pulled that off, you'd be praising their accomplishment to the skies.



Phred


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5415251 - 03/18/06 09:04 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Can you comprehend that a retired US army officer making wild claims about Iraq for publication on a blog may not be as reliable as secret memos sent by the military commanders on the ground reporting on the reality they face?




Translation --

"When army officers say things I want to hear, I cite them as credible sources. When they say things I don't want to hear, I slam them as biased liars."

You can't have it both ways, Alex213. Either army officers in general are credible sources or they are not. To dismiss the opinions of SOME officers on the basis that they are army officers is a textbook example of the ad hominem logical fallacy. Then to turn around and accept the opinions of OTHER army officers on the basis that they are army officers is a textbook example of the appeal to authority logical fallacy.

Congratulations! You've managed to score TWO classic goofs in a single sentence.

And of course, here we see yet ANOTHER demonstration of your temporal confusion syndrome -- the general in whom you have faith is describing a situation from THREE YEARS ago. Peters is addressing the reality on the ground as of last week.


Phred


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5415257 - 03/18/06 09:11 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Nice dodging all the points I skewered you with.

Even though I have pointed out repeatedly the essential difference between is and was

From the article you claim to have read:

"We're living miserably," said housewife Su'ad Hassan, a mother of four and one of millions in Baghdad who have endured three years of mostly powerless days under U.S. occupation.

How do you this square with Peters opinion?

Even in the face of these challenges, generating capacity has been increased by the equivalent of the output of America's Hoover Dam

Yet still nowhere near the 9000W Saddam was providing.

If Cuba or Venezuela had pulled that off, you'd be praising their accomplishment to the skies.


Quit pulling things out of your ass.


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5415260 - 03/18/06 09:14 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Translation --

"When army officers say things I want to hear, I cite them as credible sources. When they say things I don't want to hear, I slam them as biased liars."

You can't have it both ways, Alex213. Either army officers in general are credible sources or they are not. To dismiss the opinions of SOME officers on the basis that they are army officers is a textbook example of the ad hominem logical fallacy. Then to turn around and accept the opinions of OTHER army officers on the basis that they are army officers is a textbook example of the appeal to authority logical fallacy.

Congratulations! You've managed to score TWO classic goofs in a single sentence.

And of course, here we see yet ANOTHER demonstration of your temporal confusion syndrome -- the general in whom you have faith is describing a situation from THREE YEARS ago. Peters is addressing the reality on the ground as of last week.


Sit back and THINK about what you are saying for a second.

Do you understand the difference between an army officer writing a peice of journalism for a blog and a military commander writing a military memo? Do you understand the difference in motivation behind them?

Please try and think.


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5415371 - 03/18/06 10:40 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Nice dodging all the points I skewered you with.




Do you really want to go into points you have dodged in this thread alone, Alex213? Because we can do that if you like.

Quote:

Yet still nowhere near the 9000W Saddam was providing.




1 -- Speaking of points dodged, where is the credible source for that number?

2 -- Once again we see demonstrated your congenital inability to deal with the concept of time. Peters wasn't talking about electrical capacity in Iraq pre-invasion of Kuwait in 1990, but of electrical capacity pre-liberation of Iraq in 2003.

Quote:

Do you understand the difference between an army officer writing a peice of journalism for a blog and a military commander writing a military memo? Do you understand the difference in motivation behind them?




Do you understand the difference between someone writing about a situation three months after the resumption of hostilities in Iraq and someone writing about a situation three years later? Clearly not.

The only reason you gave for discarding the points Peters raised is that he was a US army officer. Oh, and that his article was found on a website you mistakenly assumed was partisan.

Yet you have no problem accepting the pronouncements of a British army officer. Note that the general in question isn't even stating fact. He is instead making a typical political cover-your-ass mealy-mouthed fence-straddling catch all safety net opinion he can point to down the road if things go badly, but one he can defend if things go well --

"We may have been seduced into something we might be inclined to regret. Is strategic failure a possibility? The answer has to be 'yes',"

Well, duh! Quite the master of the obvious, isn't he?

Be that as it may, that was just the handiest example of your hypocritical stance of citing military folks with whom you agree while denigrating military folks with whom you disagree. It's certainly far from the only example.


Phred


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5421126 - 03/20/06 04:14 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Peters wasn't talking about electrical capacity in Iraq pre-invasion of Kuwait in 1990, but of electrical capacity pre-liberation of Iraq in 2003.


Quit lying. This is what Peters said:

The electricity system is worse than before the war.

Find me a date in this sentence.

The only reason you gave for discarding the points Peters raised is that he was a US army officer

I'll try and explain this as simply as possible for you. Sit down, take a deep breath and brace yourself.

When Ralph Peters was a soldier writing secret memos on the military situation he faced I have no doubt he would tell the truth. When Ralph Peters is writing a peice of fluff for publication making sweeping claims about the situation in Iraq after spending a day or two in the green zone he may not be telling the truth.

As I've already told you, CONTEXT is important.

Yet you have no problem accepting the pronouncements of a British army officer

No, you are being silly. See the reasoning above. The pronouncements of a British army officer in a secret military memo to his superiors are likely to be different to his public pronouncements for very obvious reasons.


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5421128 - 03/20/06 04:17 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Consider just a few of the inaccuracies served up by the media:

Claims of civil war. In the wake of the bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra, a flurry of sectarian attacks inspired wild media claims of a collapse into civil war. It didn't happen. Driving and walking the streets of Baghdad, I found children playing and, in most neighborhoods, business as usual. Iraq can be deadly, but, more often, it's just dreary.


We are losing each day as an average 50 to 60 people throughout the country, if not more - if this is not civil war, then God knows what civil war is

Iyad Allawi
Former Iraq PM


Not been too good week for Ralph and his "myths" has it.


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5421292 - 03/20/06 07:02 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Quit lying. This is what Peters said:

The electricity system is worse than before the war.

Find me a date in this sentence.




To which war are you saying Peters is referring? Hussein's war on Iran? CONTEXT is important. To every other reader of this thread it is blindingly obvious which war is being discussed.

Quote:

When Ralph Peters was a soldier writing secret memos on the military situation he faced I have no doubt he would tell the truth. When Ralph Peters is writing a peice of fluff for publication making sweeping claims about the situation in Iraq after spending a day or two in the green zone he may not be telling the truth.




Ah. So the observations Peters makes aren't bogus because he's an army officer, or even because he's a retired army officer, they're bogus because he's now a journalist rather than an army officer. This of course raises a rather obvious question --

Why should we believe anything any journalist has to say about Iraq? After all, many of them have never set foot inside Iraq, almost none of the ones who have been in Iraq have ever ventured outside the green zone (unlike Peters, who travelled extensively outside the green zone for weeks), instead depending on local stringers for their information, and certainly none of them are writing secret memos to military commanders.




Phred


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5432931 - 03/23/06 04:32 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Ah. So the observations Peters makes aren't bogus because he's an army officer, or even because he's a retired army officer, they're bogus because he's now a journalist rather than an army officer.

You still arn't getting this. Lets go back to basics.

Do you believe that there could be a difference between what a military officer writes in a secret military memo and what he writes for publication on the internet?


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5433829 - 03/23/06 12:35 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

unlike Peters, who travelled extensively outside the green zone for weeks

With US army patrols?


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5478209 - 04/04/06 09:38 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Lets go back to basics.




By all means. Let's lay this out as plainly and simply as is possible.

Your contention is that the information Peters provides in his article is bogus -- that we are not to trust him as a journalist. The only reason you have provided so far for disbelieving his reporting is that he used to be a military officer.

Yet -- if we apply the same logic you apply to the military officers you quote to support positions you agree with -- Peters as a military man must have been trustworthy in his reporting; it's only after he left the military and became a civilian journalist that his reporting became suspect.

If the reporting of one civilian journalist (Peters) is not trustworthy, is it not logical to presume that the reporting of other (even many, perhaps all) civilian journalists is not trustworthy? Yes or no?

Or is it only the reporting of civilian journalists who used to be in the military which is untrustworthy? i.e there is some lingering effect about military service in one's past which makes one unfit to report factually from a war zone once one has retired from the military.

I'm asking you to narrow it down for us, then. Is your position that

1) the reporting of civilian journalists is untrustworthy

or

2) the reporting of civilian journalists who used to be in the military is untrustworthy





Phred


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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5478486 - 04/04/06 11:35 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

The only reason you have provided so far for disbelieving his reporting is that he used to be a military officer.


No it isn't. Go back and read the thread again from the beginning.

Peters as a military man must have been trustworthy in his reporting; it's only after he left the military and became a civilian journalist that his reporting became suspect.


I've explained this to you once. Here it is again as simply as I can make it.

Can you see no difference between a military man writing a report for his superiors on a military situation he is directly concerned with and the same man writing wild assumptions on the state of Iraq for publication on the internet?

If the reporting of one civilian journalist (Peters) is not trustworthy

No, yet again you misunderstand. If peters was writing a report on the state of the hotel he stayed in behind the Green zone I'm sure it would be trustworthy. It's when he tries making claims about the state of Iraq backed with such laughable statements as "ask the average Iraq" that you have to question him.

Is your position that

1) the reporting of civilian journalists is untrustworthy


No.

or

2) the reporting of civilian journalists who used to be in the military is untrustworthy


No.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5478569 - 04/04/06 12:06 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Can you see no difference between a military man writing a report for his superiors on a military situation he is directly concerned with and the same man writing wild assumptions on the state of Iraq for publication on the internet?




Peters reports that he spent several weeks in Iraq recently. He further reports that he travelled with US patrols and also spent a lot of time walking around talking to Iraqis.

You for some reason believe he is not telling the truth. Instead you claim he is making "wild assumptions" and imply he never left the Green Zone. When asked why you disbelieve his reporting, you first said it was because he is a US army officer -- "
Quote:

... is the word of someone from the US army at "realclearpolitics" is all the "evidence" you need?"




When it was pointed out that he is no longer in the military and that realclearpolitics is a bipartisan commentary website, you then sarcastically stated (with the rolling eyes smiley)
Quote:

"That makes all the difference."


Clearly this comment was your way of stating that whether he was still in the army or not, you didn't trust his reporting. So far, we still have no reason why you don't trust his reporting -- other than the fact that he was once in the army. Oh, and of course the fact that he is reporting things you don't want to hear.

So if you are now saying the reason his reporting is bogus has nothing to do with his status as either a civilian journalist or as an ex-military man, would you be so good as to tell us just why we should mistrust his reporting? Just what is it about Peters that makes his reporting about the situation in Iraq today any less credible than (for example) some Brit armchair commando writing a report four days after arriving in Iraq about a month after the fall of Baghdad? Or any less credible than the reporters who hole up in Green Zone hotels and rely on local stringers for their "news"?

So far in this thread your position has been --

1) Reporting from people who never venture outside the Green Zone is worthless.
2) Reporting from those who venture outside the Green Zone in the company of troops is worthless.
3) Reporting from those who ask Iraqis for their opinions on the situation is worthless.

Yet somehow the word of some bureaucrat who writes a report four days after arriving in the country is profoundly meaningful three years later. How many streets do you think this guy walked down before submitting his report? How many slums did he visit? How many patrols did he accompany? How do we know he ever left the Green Zone? How many Iraqis on the street did he interview?




Phred


--------------------


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5478618 - 04/04/06 12:21 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Your post was so convoluted I don't know where to begin.

Lets go back to Peters claims. He claims hatred of the US military among Iraqis is a "myth".

Hatred of the U.S. military. If anything surprised me in the streets of Baghdad, it was the surge in the popularity of U.S. troops among both Shias and Sunnis. In one slum, amid friendly adult waves, children and teenagers cheered a U.S. Army patrol as we passed. Instead of being viewed as occupiers, we're increasingly seen as impartial and well-intentioned.

Are you honestly saying there is no contrary evidence coming from Iraq to suggest the US military is hated?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5478637 - 04/04/06 12:28 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Your post was so convoluted I don't know where to begin.




It's pretty simple, really. You said Peters's reporting is basically a load of bollocks. That we should discard it. When asked why we should ignore it your reply was that he was a member of the US army.

Now -- pages later -- you say it's not because he was once an army officer. Very well. Maybe now you can tell us the real reason why we should disregard his reporting.



Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5491591 - 04/08/06 02:26 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

You said Peters's reporting is basically a load of bollocks.

Which it clearly is.

When asked why we should ignore it your reply was that he was a member of the US army.


I would suggest this is an excellent reason to doubt it.

Now -- pages later -- you say it's not because he was once an army officer.

Come again? You're so confused you don't even know what you're saying.

Let me try and explain this to you from another perspective. A retired member of the Republican guard writes an article saying hatred of Saddam in Iraq was a "myth" because under Saddam he'd driven through areas with the republican guard and iraqis had cheered.

Would you accept this as you blindly accept Peters stories?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5492077 - 04/08/06 08:56 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

The electricity system is worse than before the war. Untrue again. The condition of the electric grid under the old regime was appalling. Yet, despite insurgent attacks, the newly revamped system produced 5,300 megawatts last summer--a full thousand megawatts more than the peak under Saddam Hussein. Shortages continue because demand soared--newly free Iraqis went on a buying spree, filling their homes with air conditioners, appliances and the new national symbol, the satellite dish. Nonetheless, satellite photos taken during the hours of darkness show Baghdad as bright as Damascus.


Another one of Ralphs "myths" looking shaky...

Despite hopes for progress in 2005, data reported in the Brookings Institution's Iraq Index suggest that electricity availability in Iraq averaged 13 hours per day in 2004, 11 hours per day in 2005, and a little over 10 hours per day in January 2006, compared with an estimated 16-24 hours per day prior to the war. The graph below indicates that electricity production was 6% lower in 2005 than in 2004.

http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2006/02/iraqs_electrici.html


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5495462 - 04/09/06 04:06 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Claims of civil war. In the wake of the bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra, a flurry of sectarian attacks inspired wild media claims of a collapse into civil war. It didn't happen.

Another of Ralph's claims goes down the pan.

Iraq is in a state of civil war, a senior Iraqi official admitted for the first time yesterday, on the eve of today's third anniversary of the fall of Baghdad.

On 9 April 2003, the collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime was symbolised by the toppling of his statue in central Baghdad, but Iraq's deputy interior minister, Hussein Ali Kamal said: "Actually Iraq has been in an undeclared civil war for the past 12 months," he told the BBC's Arabic service.

"On a daily basis Shias, Sunnis, Kurds and Christians are being killed and the only undeclared thing is that a civil war has not been officially announced by the parties involved."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article356680.ece


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5496009 - 04/09/06 11:18 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

You see, only if reporting is done from a national, biased source then its the truth, but anything remotely positive or discrediting, well thats a lie!!!!!!!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5496119 - 04/09/06 12:22 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

You seem to have this ass-backwards.

The source I quoted is the deputy Iraqi interior minister. Nothing to do with any "national, biased" source. Phred's article is by an ex-US army officer. Which do you think is biased?


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5496653 - 04/09/06 03:51 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe cause the minister is incompetent? And is trying to blame everyone else around him?

Politicians tend to do those things a little more frequently ,then people in the military


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5496845 - 04/09/06 04:53 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

What evidence have you got for your theory that he's saying this to "blame" anyone?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5496963 - 04/09/06 05:30 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

If you look hard enough you can find somebody to say anything. Deputy anything isn't exactly a top authority or spokesman.


--------------------


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5497104 - 04/09/06 06:21 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Better than an ex-US army man pulling statements out of his crevice.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5497114 - 04/09/06 06:29 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Why?


--------------------


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