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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5415257 - 03/18/06 09:11 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Nice dodging all the points I skewered you with.

Even though I have pointed out repeatedly the essential difference between is and was

From the article you claim to have read:

"We're living miserably," said housewife Su'ad Hassan, a mother of four and one of millions in Baghdad who have endured three years of mostly powerless days under U.S. occupation.

How do you this square with Peters opinion?

Even in the face of these challenges, generating capacity has been increased by the equivalent of the output of America's Hoover Dam

Yet still nowhere near the 9000W Saddam was providing.

If Cuba or Venezuela had pulled that off, you'd be praising their accomplishment to the skies.


Quit pulling things out of your ass.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5415260 - 03/18/06 09:14 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Translation --

"When army officers say things I want to hear, I cite them as credible sources. When they say things I don't want to hear, I slam them as biased liars."

You can't have it both ways, Alex213. Either army officers in general are credible sources or they are not. To dismiss the opinions of SOME officers on the basis that they are army officers is a textbook example of the ad hominem logical fallacy. Then to turn around and accept the opinions of OTHER army officers on the basis that they are army officers is a textbook example of the appeal to authority logical fallacy.

Congratulations! You've managed to score TWO classic goofs in a single sentence.

And of course, here we see yet ANOTHER demonstration of your temporal confusion syndrome -- the general in whom you have faith is describing a situation from THREE YEARS ago. Peters is addressing the reality on the ground as of last week.


Sit back and THINK about what you are saying for a second.

Do you understand the difference between an army officer writing a peice of journalism for a blog and a military commander writing a military memo? Do you understand the difference in motivation behind them?

Please try and think.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5415371 - 03/18/06 10:40 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Nice dodging all the points I skewered you with.




Do you really want to go into points you have dodged in this thread alone, Alex213? Because we can do that if you like.

Quote:

Yet still nowhere near the 9000W Saddam was providing.




1 -- Speaking of points dodged, where is the credible source for that number?

2 -- Once again we see demonstrated your congenital inability to deal with the concept of time. Peters wasn't talking about electrical capacity in Iraq pre-invasion of Kuwait in 1990, but of electrical capacity pre-liberation of Iraq in 2003.

Quote:

Do you understand the difference between an army officer writing a peice of journalism for a blog and a military commander writing a military memo? Do you understand the difference in motivation behind them?




Do you understand the difference between someone writing about a situation three months after the resumption of hostilities in Iraq and someone writing about a situation three years later? Clearly not.

The only reason you gave for discarding the points Peters raised is that he was a US army officer. Oh, and that his article was found on a website you mistakenly assumed was partisan.

Yet you have no problem accepting the pronouncements of a British army officer. Note that the general in question isn't even stating fact. He is instead making a typical political cover-your-ass mealy-mouthed fence-straddling catch all safety net opinion he can point to down the road if things go badly, but one he can defend if things go well --

"We may have been seduced into something we might be inclined to regret. Is strategic failure a possibility? The answer has to be 'yes',"

Well, duh! Quite the master of the obvious, isn't he?

Be that as it may, that was just the handiest example of your hypocritical stance of citing military folks with whom you agree while denigrating military folks with whom you disagree. It's certainly far from the only example.


Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5421126 - 03/20/06 04:14 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Peters wasn't talking about electrical capacity in Iraq pre-invasion of Kuwait in 1990, but of electrical capacity pre-liberation of Iraq in 2003.


Quit lying. This is what Peters said:

The electricity system is worse than before the war.

Find me a date in this sentence.

The only reason you gave for discarding the points Peters raised is that he was a US army officer

I'll try and explain this as simply as possible for you. Sit down, take a deep breath and brace yourself.

When Ralph Peters was a soldier writing secret memos on the military situation he faced I have no doubt he would tell the truth. When Ralph Peters is writing a peice of fluff for publication making sweeping claims about the situation in Iraq after spending a day or two in the green zone he may not be telling the truth.

As I've already told you, CONTEXT is important.

Yet you have no problem accepting the pronouncements of a British army officer

No, you are being silly. See the reasoning above. The pronouncements of a British army officer in a secret military memo to his superiors are likely to be different to his public pronouncements for very obvious reasons.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5421128 - 03/20/06 04:17 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Consider just a few of the inaccuracies served up by the media:

Claims of civil war. In the wake of the bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra, a flurry of sectarian attacks inspired wild media claims of a collapse into civil war. It didn't happen. Driving and walking the streets of Baghdad, I found children playing and, in most neighborhoods, business as usual. Iraq can be deadly, but, more often, it's just dreary.


We are losing each day as an average 50 to 60 people throughout the country, if not more - if this is not civil war, then God knows what civil war is

Iyad Allawi
Former Iraq PM


Not been too good week for Ralph and his "myths" has it.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5421292 - 03/20/06 07:02 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Quit lying. This is what Peters said:

The electricity system is worse than before the war.

Find me a date in this sentence.




To which war are you saying Peters is referring? Hussein's war on Iran? CONTEXT is important. To every other reader of this thread it is blindingly obvious which war is being discussed.

Quote:

When Ralph Peters was a soldier writing secret memos on the military situation he faced I have no doubt he would tell the truth. When Ralph Peters is writing a peice of fluff for publication making sweeping claims about the situation in Iraq after spending a day or two in the green zone he may not be telling the truth.




Ah. So the observations Peters makes aren't bogus because he's an army officer, or even because he's a retired army officer, they're bogus because he's now a journalist rather than an army officer. This of course raises a rather obvious question --

Why should we believe anything any journalist has to say about Iraq? After all, many of them have never set foot inside Iraq, almost none of the ones who have been in Iraq have ever ventured outside the green zone (unlike Peters, who travelled extensively outside the green zone for weeks), instead depending on local stringers for their information, and certainly none of them are writing secret memos to military commanders.




Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5432931 - 03/23/06 04:32 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Ah. So the observations Peters makes aren't bogus because he's an army officer, or even because he's a retired army officer, they're bogus because he's now a journalist rather than an army officer.

You still arn't getting this. Lets go back to basics.

Do you believe that there could be a difference between what a military officer writes in a secret military memo and what he writes for publication on the internet?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5433829 - 03/23/06 12:35 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

unlike Peters, who travelled extensively outside the green zone for weeks

With US army patrols?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5478209 - 04/04/06 09:38 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Lets go back to basics.




By all means. Let's lay this out as plainly and simply as is possible.

Your contention is that the information Peters provides in his article is bogus -- that we are not to trust him as a journalist. The only reason you have provided so far for disbelieving his reporting is that he used to be a military officer.

Yet -- if we apply the same logic you apply to the military officers you quote to support positions you agree with -- Peters as a military man must have been trustworthy in his reporting; it's only after he left the military and became a civilian journalist that his reporting became suspect.

If the reporting of one civilian journalist (Peters) is not trustworthy, is it not logical to presume that the reporting of other (even many, perhaps all) civilian journalists is not trustworthy? Yes or no?

Or is it only the reporting of civilian journalists who used to be in the military which is untrustworthy? i.e there is some lingering effect about military service in one's past which makes one unfit to report factually from a war zone once one has retired from the military.

I'm asking you to narrow it down for us, then. Is your position that

1) the reporting of civilian journalists is untrustworthy

or

2) the reporting of civilian journalists who used to be in the military is untrustworthy





Phred


--------------------


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5478486 - 04/04/06 11:35 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

The only reason you have provided so far for disbelieving his reporting is that he used to be a military officer.


No it isn't. Go back and read the thread again from the beginning.

Peters as a military man must have been trustworthy in his reporting; it's only after he left the military and became a civilian journalist that his reporting became suspect.


I've explained this to you once. Here it is again as simply as I can make it.

Can you see no difference between a military man writing a report for his superiors on a military situation he is directly concerned with and the same man writing wild assumptions on the state of Iraq for publication on the internet?

If the reporting of one civilian journalist (Peters) is not trustworthy

No, yet again you misunderstand. If peters was writing a report on the state of the hotel he stayed in behind the Green zone I'm sure it would be trustworthy. It's when he tries making claims about the state of Iraq backed with such laughable statements as "ask the average Iraq" that you have to question him.

Is your position that

1) the reporting of civilian journalists is untrustworthy


No.

or

2) the reporting of civilian journalists who used to be in the military is untrustworthy


No.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5478569 - 04/04/06 12:06 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Can you see no difference between a military man writing a report for his superiors on a military situation he is directly concerned with and the same man writing wild assumptions on the state of Iraq for publication on the internet?




Peters reports that he spent several weeks in Iraq recently. He further reports that he travelled with US patrols and also spent a lot of time walking around talking to Iraqis.

You for some reason believe he is not telling the truth. Instead you claim he is making "wild assumptions" and imply he never left the Green Zone. When asked why you disbelieve his reporting, you first said it was because he is a US army officer -- "
Quote:

... is the word of someone from the US army at "realclearpolitics" is all the "evidence" you need?"




When it was pointed out that he is no longer in the military and that realclearpolitics is a bipartisan commentary website, you then sarcastically stated (with the rolling eyes smiley)
Quote:

"That makes all the difference."


Clearly this comment was your way of stating that whether he was still in the army or not, you didn't trust his reporting. So far, we still have no reason why you don't trust his reporting -- other than the fact that he was once in the army. Oh, and of course the fact that he is reporting things you don't want to hear.

So if you are now saying the reason his reporting is bogus has nothing to do with his status as either a civilian journalist or as an ex-military man, would you be so good as to tell us just why we should mistrust his reporting? Just what is it about Peters that makes his reporting about the situation in Iraq today any less credible than (for example) some Brit armchair commando writing a report four days after arriving in Iraq about a month after the fall of Baghdad? Or any less credible than the reporters who hole up in Green Zone hotels and rely on local stringers for their "news"?

So far in this thread your position has been --

1) Reporting from people who never venture outside the Green Zone is worthless.
2) Reporting from those who venture outside the Green Zone in the company of troops is worthless.
3) Reporting from those who ask Iraqis for their opinions on the situation is worthless.

Yet somehow the word of some bureaucrat who writes a report four days after arriving in the country is profoundly meaningful three years later. How many streets do you think this guy walked down before submitting his report? How many slums did he visit? How many patrols did he accompany? How do we know he ever left the Green Zone? How many Iraqis on the street did he interview?




Phred


--------------------


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5478618 - 04/04/06 12:21 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Your post was so convoluted I don't know where to begin.

Lets go back to Peters claims. He claims hatred of the US military among Iraqis is a "myth".

Hatred of the U.S. military. If anything surprised me in the streets of Baghdad, it was the surge in the popularity of U.S. troops among both Shias and Sunnis. In one slum, amid friendly adult waves, children and teenagers cheered a U.S. Army patrol as we passed. Instead of being viewed as occupiers, we're increasingly seen as impartial and well-intentioned.

Are you honestly saying there is no contrary evidence coming from Iraq to suggest the US military is hated?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5478637 - 04/04/06 12:28 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Your post was so convoluted I don't know where to begin.




It's pretty simple, really. You said Peters's reporting is basically a load of bollocks. That we should discard it. When asked why we should ignore it your reply was that he was a member of the US army.

Now -- pages later -- you say it's not because he was once an army officer. Very well. Maybe now you can tell us the real reason why we should disregard his reporting.



Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5491591 - 04/08/06 02:26 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

You said Peters's reporting is basically a load of bollocks.

Which it clearly is.

When asked why we should ignore it your reply was that he was a member of the US army.


I would suggest this is an excellent reason to doubt it.

Now -- pages later -- you say it's not because he was once an army officer.

Come again? You're so confused you don't even know what you're saying.

Let me try and explain this to you from another perspective. A retired member of the Republican guard writes an article saying hatred of Saddam in Iraq was a "myth" because under Saddam he'd driven through areas with the republican guard and iraqis had cheered.

Would you accept this as you blindly accept Peters stories?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5492077 - 04/08/06 08:56 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

The electricity system is worse than before the war. Untrue again. The condition of the electric grid under the old regime was appalling. Yet, despite insurgent attacks, the newly revamped system produced 5,300 megawatts last summer--a full thousand megawatts more than the peak under Saddam Hussein. Shortages continue because demand soared--newly free Iraqis went on a buying spree, filling their homes with air conditioners, appliances and the new national symbol, the satellite dish. Nonetheless, satellite photos taken during the hours of darkness show Baghdad as bright as Damascus.


Another one of Ralphs "myths" looking shaky...

Despite hopes for progress in 2005, data reported in the Brookings Institution's Iraq Index suggest that electricity availability in Iraq averaged 13 hours per day in 2004, 11 hours per day in 2005, and a little over 10 hours per day in January 2006, compared with an estimated 16-24 hours per day prior to the war. The graph below indicates that electricity production was 6% lower in 2005 than in 2004.

http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2006/02/iraqs_electrici.html


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5495462 - 04/09/06 04:06 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Claims of civil war. In the wake of the bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra, a flurry of sectarian attacks inspired wild media claims of a collapse into civil war. It didn't happen.

Another of Ralph's claims goes down the pan.

Iraq is in a state of civil war, a senior Iraqi official admitted for the first time yesterday, on the eve of today's third anniversary of the fall of Baghdad.

On 9 April 2003, the collapse of Saddam Hussein's regime was symbolised by the toppling of his statue in central Baghdad, but Iraq's deputy interior minister, Hussein Ali Kamal said: "Actually Iraq has been in an undeclared civil war for the past 12 months," he told the BBC's Arabic service.

"On a daily basis Shias, Sunnis, Kurds and Christians are being killed and the only undeclared thing is that a civil war has not been officially announced by the parties involved."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article356680.ece


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5496009 - 04/09/06 11:18 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

You see, only if reporting is done from a national, biased source then its the truth, but anything remotely positive or discrediting, well thats a lie!!!!!!!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5496119 - 04/09/06 12:22 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

You seem to have this ass-backwards.

The source I quoted is the deputy Iraqi interior minister. Nothing to do with any "national, biased" source. Phred's article is by an ex-US army officer. Which do you think is biased?


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5496653 - 04/09/06 03:51 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe cause the minister is incompetent? And is trying to blame everyone else around him?

Politicians tend to do those things a little more frequently ,then people in the military


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5496845 - 04/09/06 04:53 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

What evidence have you got for your theory that he's saying this to "blame" anyone?


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