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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5407209 - 03/16/06 09:09 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Peters is a retired US Army officer

That makes all the difference  :rolleyes:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5407507 - 03/16/06 11:29 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

How can something be a myth if it was established in a UN report 2 years ago?




By pretending a situation that once existed still exists. Things change. Time marches on. Iraq's maximum generating capacity (as reported by Iraq's Ba'athist ex-regime) pre-March of 2003 was 4400 megawatts. Today Iraq's maximum generating capacity is 7000 megawatts.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5407512 - 03/16/06 11:32 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

That makes all the difference




All the difference to what, Alex213? You have had no scruples about providing quotes from both army officers and ex-army officers in many of your previous posts. Are we supposed to disregard their comments? If so, why did you bother to provide them?




Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5408546 - 03/16/06 03:48 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

By pretending a situation that once existed still exists

No, that isn't a myth.

Iraq's maximum generating capacity (as reported by Iraq's Ba'athist ex-regime) pre-March of 2003 was 4400 megawatts. Today Iraq's maximum generating capacity is 7000 megawatts.


Do you realise the "maximum generating capacity" has little to do with the electricity supply people are receiving?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5408561 - 03/16/06 03:52 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You have had no scruples about providing quotes from both army officers and ex-army officers in many of your previous posts.

Quoting them saying what?

Can you comprehend that a US army officer's opinion on the current state of Iraq is probably not the most reliable information? Seeing as the US army invaded Iraq?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5408582 - 03/16/06 03:59 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I guess the US launching the biggest air raid since the war a few days after this fucking idiot's article saying how promising things are puts his opinion in perspective.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5408720 - 03/16/06 04:40 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

myth: (noun)

1 a traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events
- such stories collectively : the heroes of Greek myth

2 a widely held but false belief or idea : he wants to dispel the myth that sea kayaking is too risky or too strenuous; there is a popular myth that big corporations are big people with lots of money
- a misrepresentation of the truth : attacking the party's irresponsible myths about privatization
- a fictitious or imaginary person or thing
- an exaggerated or idealized conception of a person or thing : the book is a scholarly study of the Churchill myth

The points highlighted by Peters fit the definition of myth to a T.

Quote:

Do you realise the "maximum generating capacity" has little to do with the electricity supply people are receiving?




Yes, I do. Do you? Iraqis were not receiving the maximum capacity pre-March 2003 either. In even the best maintained electrical system, maximum capacity is seldom if ever realized -- parts of the grid are almost always offline for maintenance. And Iraq's electrical grid pre-March 2003 could not be realistically described as well-maintained.

The article linked by Wilshire explains that (according to the Ba'athist ex-regime) Iraq's total maximum generating capacity pre-March 2003 totalled 4400 megawatts. Was there ever even a single minute when all 4400 megawatts of that capacity were being simultaneously delivered? Nope. Iraq's present total maximum generating capacity totals 7000 megawatts, of which 5300 megawatts is currently being realized.


Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5408735 - 03/16/06 04:43 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Quoting them saying what?




Usually saying how bad the Americans have screwed up. if army officers (and ex-army officers) are credible when they say things you want to hear, why are they not credible when they say things you don't want to hear?



Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5411063 - 03/17/06 03:11 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

The points highlighted by Peters fit the definition of myth to a T.


Don't be silly. Are you seriously claiming that things that were known to be perfectly true as little as 24 months ago can be described as "myths"?

All because a retired US army officer who spent a day or two in the Green zone says so?

And then the week after the moron leaves saying things are going great the biggest air assault in years is launched just 60 miles north of Baghdad? Does that strike you as a man who knows what he's talking about?

Iraq's total maximum generating capacity pre-March 2003 totalled 4400 megawatts.

That's misrepresenting the truth. Iraq's total under Saddam in 1991 was 9000MW. The total you quote is the amount Saddam was still reaching even after 12 years of severe sanctions and thousands of bombing raids.

Iraq's present total maximum generating capacity totals 7000 megawatts, of which 5300 megawatts is currently being realized.


Still way, way down on Saddams 9000. And as has been pointed out the number of Iraqis receiving reliable electricity supplies is minimal.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5411083 - 03/17/06 03:19 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Usually saying how bad the Americans have screwed up. if army officers (and ex-army officers) are credible when they say things you want to hear, why are they not credible when they say things you don't want to hear?


I'm sorry but I'm going to have to pin you down on this. What exactly are you referring to? I know your prediliction for misrepresenting the truth and you will need to provide precise examples to back this accusation up.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5411169 - 03/17/06 03:51 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

*predilection

:wink:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5411902 - 03/17/06 11:07 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Don't be silly.




It's pretty obvious to the readers of this thread that someone is being silly, Alex213, but it isn't me. It isn't wilshire either. Who does that leave?

Quote:

Are you seriously claiming that things that were known to be perfectly true as little as 24 months ago can be described as "myths"?




And yet again you demonstrate your inability to differentiate between what is and what was. If Peters had written about conditions in Iraq 24 months ago, he wouldn't have made the same points he does in this article written less than a week ago.

It is "a widely held but false idea" that the electrical situation in Iraq today is worse than it was before the war. It is "a misrepresentation of the truth." In other words, a myth.

Quote:

Iraq's total under Saddam in 1991 was 9000MW.




Source, please.

Even if true, it is irrelevant to the point Peters is making. He's not talking about conditions in Iraq before Hussein invaded Kuwait back in 1990 and got beaten like a gong.

Quote:

And as has been pointed out the number of Iraqis receiving reliable electricity supplies is minimal.




Still haven't gotten around to reading the link wilshire provided, I see. In actuality, more Iraqis are receiving reliable electricity than were in 2002.




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5411920 - 03/17/06 11:14 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

I know your prediliction for misrepresenting the truth and you will need to provide precise examples to back this accusation up.




Well Alex213, all the regulars of this forum know your predilection for not bothering to read your own posts, so they won't be surprised when I provide as an example your opening post in this very thread --

"Senior British diplomatic and military staff gave Tony Blair explicit warnings three years ago that the US was disastrously mishandling the occupation of Iraq, according to leaked memos."

-- and --

"That assessment is reinforced by Major General Albert Whitley, the most senior British officer with the US land forces. Gen Whitley, in another memo later that summer, expressed alarm that the US-British coalition was in danger of losing the peace."



Phred


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5412196 - 03/17/06 12:42 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Phred your facts are scewed, your maximum ideas are in the fryer, and man if I had potatoe for every time you tried slinging that one at me. The fact is everything you just said is backwards, and there is no candy for that from where I come from.

"Well Alex213, all the regulars of this forum know your predilection for not bothering to read your own posts, so they won't be surprised when I provide as an example your opening post in this very thread --"
Totally scewed, Totally Wrong.
I'm Nick McD and I approve this message.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Edited by beatnicknick (03/17/06 12:44 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5412987 - 03/17/06 04:08 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

beatnicknick said:
man if I had potatoe for every time you tried slinging that one at me




Wow! Former Vice-President Dan Quayle is a member of our political forum. What an honor!


Edited by RandalFlagg (03/17/06 04:14 PM)


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5415093 - 03/18/06 04:59 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

It's pretty obvious to the readers of this thread that someone is being silly

It certainly is. And you trying to claim something that was true 2 years ago can be described as a "myth" is about as silly as it gets.

It is "a widely held but false idea" that the electrical situation in Iraq today is worse than it was before the war.

This is laughable.

If he'd said "This was true a mere 2 years ago but now I, a retired US army officer, claim it isn't true any longer" it would be more accurate. However that still wouldn't make it a myth.

It is "a misrepresentation of the truth." In other words, a myth.


This is idiocy.

No matter how much you try and stretch reality to fit your fantasy it doesn't work. You cannot describe something that was demonstrably true a mere 2 years ago a myth simply because a retired US army officer says so.

Even if true, it is irrelevant to the point Peters is making. He's not talking about conditions in Iraq before Hussein invaded Kuwait back in 1990

Then you will be able to point out the dates he puts on his claims. Please do so.

He has already been caught out lying by saying it is a myth electricity is worse than it was before the war. The UN proved it was worse just 2 years ago.

Still haven't gotten around to reading the link wilshire provided, I see. In actuality, more Iraqis are receiving reliable electricity than were in 2002.


Actually I'd already read that article at the Guardian before wilshire even posted it.

Incidentally, where did you get your "2002" claim from?

And are you seriously claiming this is impressive? That after 3 years you can only make comparisons with the situation as it was in 2002 after 12 years of sanctions and bombings to knock out the electricity grid? Are you joking?

Here's a section from the source wilshire provided (that you appear not to have read):

"We're living miserably," said housewife Su'ad Hassan, a mother of four and one of millions in Baghdad who have endured three years of mostly powerless days under U.S. occupation.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Phred]
    #5415101 - 03/18/06 05:05 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Well Alex213, all the regulars of this forum know your predilection for not bothering to read your own posts, so they won't be surprised when I provide as an example your opening post in this very thread

This is breathtaking idiocy.

Do you understand context? Can you comprehend that a retired US army officer making wild claims about Iraq for publication on a blog may not be as reliable as secret memos sent by the military commanders on the ground reporting on the reality they face?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5415118 - 03/18/06 05:18 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Phred your facts are scewed, your maximum ideas are in the fryer, and man if I had potatoe for every time you tried slinging that one at me. The fact is everything you just said is backwards, and there is no candy for that from where I come from.

:grin: :grin:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5415240 - 03/18/06 08:50 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213, it's quite obvious you are unable to distinguish from past and present. Why this is so doesn't concern me -- it's your problem to deal with, not mine.

Even though I have pointed out repeatedly the essential difference between is and was (that's why they are spelled differently), you are still stubbornly mouthing non sequiturs --

Quote:

He has already been caught out lying by saying it is a myth electricity is worse than it was before the war. The UN proved it was worse just 2 years ago.




For the last time, Peters is not talking about how things were. He's talking about how things are. You -- unable to refute him -- instead continue to ramble on nostalgically about how things used to be.

Quote:

And are you seriously claiming this is impressive? That after 3 years you can only make comparisons with the situation as it was in 2002 after 12 years of sanctions and bombings to knock out the electricity grid? Are you joking?




The myth Peters refutes is that the electricity system in Iraq is worse than before the war. The article wilshire provides -- which you claim to have read -- shows in no uncertain terms that this is not the case. There's a substantial difference (a hair under sixty per cent, actually) between 4400 megawatts and 7000 megawatts. You may not consider increasing a nation's generating capacity by sixty per cent in less than three years to be impressive -- especially in the face of such challenges as "...insurgent attacks, inefficient production, sabotage by extortionists, and other factors." The article you claim to have read later goes into a bit more detail about these other factors --

"They (army engineers) brought in contractors to upgrade installations, but the looting and sabotage went on. Insurgents attacked fuel pipelines. Other Iraqis toppled transmission towers to keep power in their own cities and away from Baghdad."

Even in the face of these challenges, generating capacity has been increased by the equivalent of the output of America's Hoover Dam. If Cuba or Venezuela had pulled that off, you'd be praising their accomplishment to the skies.



Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Iraq "an unbelievable mess" [Re: Alex213]
    #5415251 - 03/18/06 09:04 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

Can you comprehend that a retired US army officer making wild claims about Iraq for publication on a blog may not be as reliable as secret memos sent by the military commanders on the ground reporting on the reality they face?




Translation --

"When army officers say things I want to hear, I cite them as credible sources. When they say things I don't want to hear, I slam them as biased liars."

You can't have it both ways, Alex213. Either army officers in general are credible sources or they are not. To dismiss the opinions of SOME officers on the basis that they are army officers is a textbook example of the ad hominem logical fallacy. Then to turn around and accept the opinions of OTHER army officers on the basis that they are army officers is a textbook example of the appeal to authority logical fallacy.

Congratulations! You've managed to score TWO classic goofs in a single sentence.

And of course, here we see yet ANOTHER demonstration of your temporal confusion syndrome -- the general in whom you have faith is describing a situation from THREE YEARS ago. Peters is addressing the reality on the ground as of last week.


Phred


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