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InvisibleSilversoul
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The collective
    #5395483 - 03/13/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Some believe that "collectives" such as society are nothing more than the sum of the individuals that comprise it. I wonder why you would stop there. After all, by that logic, each individual is just the sum of the cells in their body, right? And of course each cell is just a collective of different atoms, which are themselves collective entities comprised of protons, neutrons, and electrons. And of course each proton and neutron is a collective of quarks. So, why not just say that society is nothing more than the sum of subatomic particles comprising it? Hell, why not go further? According to string theory, each subatomic particle is the result of energy strings vibrating at different frequencies. So there we have it: Society is the sum total of energy vibrations that compose the matter of which it is made.

Or perhaps something can be greater than the sum of its parts?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5395530 - 03/13/06 03:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, I am going insane about this fundamental question as well...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post5182498


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5395545 - 03/13/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

..it can even be 'less than' the sum of its parts!

:crazy2: :thumbup:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The collective [Re: Gomp]
    #5395725 - 03/13/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

greater than, or less than, is subjective. Worth and meaning are an abstract by-product of human perception of reality.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5397334 - 03/13/06 11:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Have you read this?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5397348 - 03/13/06 11:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Because its irrelevent. Sure you can say its the sum of the subatomic particles, but if they are equal, then you can use substitution and arrive back at the sum of people. So frankly I dont see what point you could be making at all.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: TheCow]
    #5397973 - 03/14/06 07:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
So frankly I dont see what point you could be making at all.



Probably because you can't see that an organism is something other than just the sum of its parts, and likewise, social groups are not just the sum of the individuals within it.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5398017 - 03/14/06 07:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

TheCow said:
So frankly I dont see what point you could be making at all.



Probably because you can't see that an organism is something other than just the sum of its parts




What else is it?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5398034 - 03/14/06 07:33 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

TheCow said:
So frankly I dont see what point you could be making at all.



Probably because you can't see that an organism is something other than just the sum of its parts




What else is it?



An entity unto itself.


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InvisibleDarkcloud
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5398074 - 03/14/06 07:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

A virus, perhaps.


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:poison: :poison: :poison:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: Darkcloud]
    #5398095 - 03/14/06 07:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

huh?


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: The collective [Re: Darkcloud]
    #5398146 - 03/14/06 08:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Darkcloud said:
A virus, perhaps.




Check this out:

http://www.discover.com/issues/mar-06/cover/


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The collective [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5398327 - 03/14/06 09:42 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

So Paradigm, why then, isnt every level applied to your collective theory?

Why arent the sum of all the quarks which make up the atom which is part of a molecule that is part of a hair protruding from my left testicle greater than the sum of its parts?

what is to stop you from going infinitly big? that our human collective isnt just part of a universal collective, and that the universal collective isnt part of the parallel universal collective, and that the parallel universal collective isnt a part of an even greater collective?

and what do you mean by greater? you say the sum of the parts are greater, and I dont need to tell you that the term is subjective, so what is it dependant upon? who is the final observer/judge upon the greatness of this supposed collective?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5398437 - 03/14/06 10:06 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
So Paradigm, why then, isnt every level applied to your collective theory?



Eh?

Quote:

Why arent the sum of all the quarks which make up the atom which is part of a molecule that is part of a hair protruding from my left testicle greater than the sum of its parts?



Who says they aren't?

Quote:

what is to stop you from going infinitly big? that our human collective isnt just part of a universal collective, and that the universal collective isnt part of the parallel universal collective, and that the parallel universal collective isnt a part of an even greater collective?



Nothing. These are all true.

Quote:

and what do you mean by greater? you say the sum of the parts are greater, and I dont need to tell you that the term is subjective, so what is it dependant upon? who is the final observer/judge upon the greatness of this supposed collective?



Don't get too caught up on the word "greater." I simply mean that it is qualitatively different from any individual part that makes it up.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5398583 - 03/14/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

This is no different from reiterating the fact that an entity is the sum of its parts. Existence, the totality of all existents, is the sum of its parts.

A house can be explained by reference to the wood, metal, and glass that are combined in that particular way to form the house. Or it could be explained in terms of the atoms that form it. These are all true, because the entity is a sum of its parts. Depending on what we specify as an 'entity', it has a particular identity. This identity exists objectively. We may choose to focus on a particular part of an entity, and discover the identity of that part, but it doesn't contradict the identity of the whole.


Or perhaps something can be greater than the sum of its parts?

Metaphysically speaking, an entity can only be the sum of its parts - nothing else.
Epistemologically speaking, that's another story.



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5398609 - 03/14/06 10:55 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

We may choose to focus on a particular part of an entity, and discover the identity of that part, but it doesn't contradict the identity of the whole.



Well of course it doesn't contradict the identity of the whole, but it doesn't mean that you add up the parts and you get that entity. There is an identity to the entity which is not found in any of the parts that make it up, but rather arises from the group.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5399045 - 03/14/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

TheCow said:
So frankly I dont see what point you could be making at all.



Probably because you can't see that an organism is something other than just the sum of its parts, and likewise, social groups are not just the sum of the individuals within it.



That is a quality you are assigning to it. But in reality it cannot be anymore then the sum of its parts, unless there is some magical force that only happens when people get together. Just because people behave differently in a large group, doesnt mean it still isnt the sum of its parts.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: TheCow]
    #5399056 - 03/14/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It is not just that people behave differently in groups, but rather that the group acquires characteristics and behaviors of its own. It acts as its own entity.


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5399180 - 03/14/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

by itself a piece of metal and silicon arent really anything interesting. when theyre assembled correctly, the sum of their parts is much much greater than the parts by themselves. a computer is so much more useful than a pile of copper and silicon.

filling a room with computers doesnt necessarily mean that the collection of the computers is greater since theyre all together. they need to be networked to increase their value as a group of computers.

there needs to be a special connection between the "parts" for them to be worth more as a collective than as individuals. a collective of humans working towards a similar goal can be more powerful than a collective of humans doing random crap.

so something being greater than the sum of its parts wouldnt be a universal law that scales microscopically or macroscopically. what matters is how the parts connect. our bodies connect in a way that makes a soul. our souls can connect in a way that makes communities and families. then we are greater.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5399181 - 03/14/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

but it doesn't mean that you add up the parts and you get that entity.

That depends on what we specify as an entity. If we refer to the entity that is known as a "nail" in a 4x4, then that particular entity is the sum of its parts.


There is an identity to the entity which is not found in any of the parts that make it up, but rather arises from the group.

Incorrect. In essence you are saying that there is an identity which a specific entity is a part of, yet it is in no way metaphysically inter-connected.
Taking from your reference to the String Theory, let us say that science vindicates the theory that vibrational strings of meta-energy is the ultimate ingredients of the universe; the irreducible building blocks of existence. This means that there is an entity which all existents are a part of, and in which all existents arises from - not the reverse.


rather that the group acquires characteristics and behaviors of its own. It acts as its own entity.

Merely a form of anthropomorphism. You are attempting to see a group of individuals as having a single identity similar to a person. This is the kind of attitude that gives rise to the evil ethical standard that is known as "collectivism".

Trace such an attitude to its roots, and you will find the fundamental axiom: Primacy of Consciousness, which typically gives rise to such notions of "collective consciousness".

Reason is an attribute of an individual. One cannot think for or through another person any more than one can breathe or digest food for him. Each man's brain, like his lungs and stomach, is his alone to use. We can learn from others, but learning is an active process; others do not implant their knowledge in a newbie by surgery or sorcery. Thinking in terms of groups when it comes to non-living entities is non-harmful, as such a reality is largely pre-determined. This is not the case with living, sentient and conscious beings, with the faculty of volition and reason.



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OfflineTheCow
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5399192 - 03/14/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I am just saying, these are all qualities assigned by humans. Sure a computer is more useful then just the silicon, metal and random stuff it is made from. But its the same thing, we as humans find it more useful. The universe could care less.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5399225 - 03/14/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Merely a form of anthropomorphism. You are attempting to see a group of individuals as having a single identity similar to a person. This is the kind of attitude that gives rise to the evil ethical standard that is known as "collectivism".



A clump of cells come together to form the individual. How is that not the same thing happening on a different scale? Why do you only reduce the collective to the individual when the individual can be further reduced?


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5399284 - 03/14/06 01:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

A clump of cells come together to form the individual. How is that not the same thing happening on a different scale?

What you are neglecting is that this "different scale" which you allude to, is not metaphysical - it is man-made.


Why do you only reduce the collective to the individual when the individual can be further reduced?

The individual can be further reduced - but on what contexts are we talking about? If we are talking about the man-made, about the epistemological, about politics, about ethics, then the sub-division stops at the metaphysically-given. The metaphysically-given is absolute - there is only one way in which the metaphysically-given takes place. In other words, the metaphysically-given is necessitated, whereas man's actions, values, epistemology and volitionally-governed constructs are not necessitated..

To repeat, I refer to the last paragraph of my prior post.



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5399327 - 03/14/06 02:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
A clump of cells come together to form the individual. How is that not the same thing happening on a different scale?

What you are neglecting is that this "different scale" which you allude to, is not metaphysical - it is man-made.



"Man-made" only in the sense that it involves humans. Social behavior is part of our nature, and as such, so is understanding things in a social context, rather than merely an individual one.


Quote:

Why do you only reduce the collective to the individual when the individual can be further reduced?

The individual can be further reduced - but on what contexts are we talking about? If we are talking about the man-made, about the epistemological, about politics, about ethics, then the sub-division stops at the metaphysically-given. The metaphysically-given is absolute - there is only one way in which the metaphysically-given takes place. In other words, the metaphysically-given is necessitated, whereas man's actions, values, epistemology and volitionally-governed constructs are not necessitated..



False. We evolved as social animals, and as such, society is as necessary to our survival as a beehive is to a bee.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5399368 - 03/14/06 02:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

To repeat, I refer to the last paragraph of my prior post.



Very well, then. Let's have a look:
Quote:

Reason is an attribute of an individual.



Reason, perhaps. But thought is not necessarily unique to the individual. Group-think is common throughout the animal kingdom.

Quote:

One cannot think for or through another person any more than one can breathe or digest food for him.



True, an individual cannot think for or through another individual. But society is as much a part of us as we are of it.

Quote:

Each man's brain, like his lungs and stomach, is his alone to use.



Who is "he"? Oh, you mean the collective of organs and tissue known as the individual. Yes, I agree -- the individual parts belong to the collective which they comprise.

Quote:

We can learn from others, but learning is an active process; others do not implant their knowledge in a newbie by surgery or sorcery. Thinking in terms of groups when it comes to non-living entities is non-harmful, as such a reality is largely pre-determined. This is not the case with living, sentient and conscious beings, with the faculty of volition and reason.



Yes it is. Ants have individual brains, but they think and act much more as a group than they do individually. They, like us, and like nature itself, are a superorganism.


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: The collective [Re: TheCow]
    #5399380 - 03/14/06 02:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
I am just saying, these are all qualities assigned by humans. Sure a computer is more useful then just the silicon, metal and random stuff it is made from. But its the same thing, we as humans find it more useful. The universe could care less.




have you read douglas adams "hitchhikers guide to the galaxy"? i know its entirely a silly fiction, but one of the highlights of the plot was that earth was a huge ultra complex computer that was created to solve the meaning of life.

us making computers may be part of some equation that something is watching. i know this is more scifi than anything, but to us a computer calculates answers and does something useful. in the same way, our planet may be someones abbacus...

also, i dont think i know enough long words to post on this particular forum : )


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Edited by rDr4g0n (03/14/06 02:18 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The collective [Re: TheCow]
    #5399424 - 03/14/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

But in reality it cannot be anymore then the sum of its parts, unless there is some magical force that only happens when people get together.




And that magical force is also known as creative energy/probabilities.

2 humans can turn themselves into 10 humans.

Say two humans want to become a group of four humans. In reality what math formuli can be utilized to create a predictable outcome of 4?  What if on the second pregnancy triplets developed? The 2 that wanted to become a group of four and used math to believe 2 pregnancies would make that happen are now a group of 6 with just two pregnancies.

Thats reality.

Say that I want 21 columbine flowers in my garden next spring. How many seeds should I plant this spring? Who knows how many seeds the first seeds are going to bloom to drop new seeds and of the those which will take and bloom?

Where is the logical predictable math for all of this actual reality anyway?

Swinging around to the topic, I just created a garden in a corner of my yard. It is my garden, I created it all by myself.

Pfffffffffft-delusion!

I , me, myself- NONSENSE. The collective created that garden.

How many millions of humans went into creating me?
How many humans gave me the ideas and inspiration for the design?
How many humans went into creating the subdivision, home and  that corner of yard I call mine?
How many humans were involved in the creation and distribution of the materials  purchased for the project?
How many humans went into creating the corporation my husband works for that provides the money that purchased the materials?

And I have the nerve to say I created that garden all by myself and that it is mine? Ahahahahahahahaha

People can believe they sole handedly came into current being and sole handedly accomplish anything and that there is no such thing as THE Universal Collective, though there is little truth in such a reality.

I , me,  mine, his, hers, theirs are all delusional words regarding true reality. The collective is behind all the posing singular fronts.

How much of this reply can I even solely take credit for making?

How many millions went into making me, my thoughts on it, the computer I am typing on, the english language, the time I have to type it, this message board, my interest in it, this forum, and this particular post that lead to my reply?

For as long as we live in the delusion of my cause, his cause, her cause, their cause, we will live in the fault of such delusion.

There is only we, us the collective of potential creative energy working in co-operation.  When we realize that, the collective will start taking responsibility as one for everything that happens in a co-operative manor. It's how its always been and yet, how many see it and realize it as such? Separation is an illusion and a delusion of the mind and has little to do with the truth of reality.

It's easy to fall into such delusion where there is no love. A certain member here use to say that if I hit my toe with a hammer, he wouldn't feel my pain and that I am separate from him. 

Where we feel love for life, what do we do when our pets, children, parents, friends, family get injured? We rush them to the doc/vet/hospital. Why? Think about it. Why would you and or do you?  We feel their pain and want it to stop. I think anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

I think they believed themselves out of the one collective, one love that is universal with delusions of separation. 

Some people asscociate the word love with romaticism or sex. The love I reffer to is the the feeling you get when you realize the creative energy you are a part of within the collective.

Nice topic Paradigm! :thumbup: I was thinking about all of this in a new light a few hours before your post first went up.

:peace: :heart:


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InvisibleMystikMushroom
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5399776 - 03/14/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Some believe that "collectives" such as society are nothing more than the sum of the individuals that comprise it.  I wonder why you would stop there.  After all, by that logic, each individual is just the sum of the cells in their body, right?  And of course each cell is just a collective of different atoms, which are themselves collective entities comprised of protons, neutrons, and electrons.  And of course each proton and neutron is a collective of quarks.  So, why not just say that society is nothing more than the sum of subatomic particles comprising it?  Hell, why not go further?  According to string theory, each subatomic particle is the result of energy strings vibrating at different frequencies.  So there we have it:  Society is the sum total of energy vibrations that compose the matter of which it is made.

Or perhaps something can be greater than the sum of its parts?




Well, I could give you this as an explaination: As above, so below.

You went down in scale by mentioning cells, and then smaller than that...but also think the oposite direction. Whole planets, solar systems, galaxies, universes...ect, ect. The more we look the more we discover. Both directions go to infinity.  :thumbup:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The collective [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5399778 - 03/14/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

:crazyeyes: :oogle: :eek: :jawdrop:
:rofl: :cryariver:
:tunnel: :snowman:
:thumbup: :heartpump:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMystikMushroom
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Re: The collective [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5399808 - 03/14/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I guess, we are all part of a system of infinite systems. . . You could think of individual humans as the most advanced product of mother earth, her offspring if you will. Created by yet a larger system, earth us humans are...Just as we create microchips and designer research chemicals for hallucinating.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: MystikMushroom]
    #5399926 - 03/14/06 04:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MystikMushroom said:
Well, I could give you this as an explaination: As above, so below.

You went down in scale by mentioning cells, and then smaller than that...but also think the oposite direction. Whole planets, solar systems, galaxies, universes...ect, ect. The more we look the more we discover. Both directions go to infinity.  :thumbup:



I wouldn't say they go to infinity, per se.  But I would say that both lead to a single observation:



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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5400317 - 03/14/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"We Are All One", sounds catchy n' all...
but I feel, "We Are All Part of One Perpetual Process" is more accurate, since the universe definitely contains differations and variations of forms and functions.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5400342 - 03/14/06 06:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
"We Are All One", sounds catchy n' all...
but I feel, "We Are All Part of One Perpetual Process" is more accurate, since the universe definitely contains differations and variations of forms and functions.



Yes, that would be one way of saying it, when looking at the macro level. On the micro level, we could say "We Are All One Substance," as this describes what string theory is telling us. There are other more mystical interpretations of the saying which I'll spare you, but the point is that "We Are All One" captures the essential truth at all those levels.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5400388 - 03/14/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

(Reply to original post)

To put it in biological jargon, something is "greater than the sum of its parts" in the sense that groupings of individuals cells called tissues (and the grouping of tissues into organs) can perform an entirely new and greater function which individual cells cannot. For instance, the gastrointestinal tract is able to ingest, absorb, and excrete food which individual cells would never be able to on their own.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/14/06 06:36 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5400459 - 03/14/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I dunno much bout String theory, but at the mirco-level I'd say: "We Are All Composed of Different Atoms that Are Causally Related to One Another." The eternal causal relationship between everything is what I call 'The Perpetual Process'. Kinda like Dao.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5401148 - 03/14/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Social behavior is part of our nature, and as such, so is understanding things in a social context, rather than merely an individual one.

I have no problem agreeing that understandings pertinent to society serve useful purpose. Where I disagree is with your contention that the concept of a "collective" is anything more than anthropomorphism.

Paradigm wrote: " the group acquires characteristics and behaviors of its own. It acts as its own entity."

So I take it you believe that the group has ideas, and can think. It has purpose, and it acts to achieve goals. It even has a personality, called culture. You believe that it is an entity itself, more important than the sum of the individuals. That the individuals become secondary to the collective. Their well-being and even their lives are ignored if the group has something to gain. The individuals are not recognized. They are merely a tool for the group.


False. We evolved as social animals, and as such, society is as necessary to our survival as a beehive is to a bee.

Society is necessary to our survival? How are you defining society? I ask, because circumstances come to mind whereby an individual can indeed survive without a "society". What is necessary for most people isn't necessary for all people, and in all situations. My point withstands. Note that I don't contend against the notion that society is necessary in certain respects and in certain senses, but that's has nothing to do with what I am referring to being necessitated, as with the metaphysically-given.


Reason, perhaps. But thought is not necessarily unique to the individual. Group-think is common throughout the animal kingdom.

Sure, group-think is quite common. I can join a study-group, and think with them to focus our individual efforts into a given task at hand. The end result was the product of all our individual efforts combined together - and if there was some slacker that didn't do diddly-squat, then he is not to be credited for the success of the study-group. Moreover, words, concepts, and various mental-constructs may not be unique to the individual, just with many man-made things that we deal with in this world - but the creations that an individual creates out of these forms can certainly be unique as our fingerprints, fingerpaintings or conceptual variations and twists to such.




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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The collective [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5401203 - 03/14/06 09:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Jiggy, from what you've wrote, am I to strike the conclusion that you believe I should not give credit for myself, that I should not have pride, nor think it good for an individual to take credit for their own work?

I have pride in myself for the great things I have accomplished that improved my life and the lives of people that I care about.

I am not, of course, blind to other's achievements - I am conscious of the fact that most of the ideas I hold true today have been discovered by others, and then that I have re-discovered them to be true through my own life. What I do is my achievement. My achievement is not independent on other's achievements, I am quite confident that every part of reality has some degree of influence on every other part of reality. But to what extent are my actions more dependent on myself than others? To quite a high degree, so high that I could claim that what I do is my achievement, and I am very confident that I very much am, can, and will be a hero.




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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5401304 - 03/14/06 10:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Social behavior is part of our nature, and as such, so is understanding things in a social context, rather than merely an individual one.

I have no problem agreeing that understandings pertinent to society serve useful purpose. Where I disagree is with your contention that the concept of a "collective" is anything more than anthropomorphism.



You are certainly free to deny the obvious if you so choose.

Quote:

Paradigm wrote: " the group acquires characteristics and behaviors of its own. It acts as its own entity."

So I take it you believe that the group has ideas, and can think. It has purpose, and it acts to achieve goals. It even has a personality, called culture.



The term "thinking" will just get us into trouble with semantics. But society does have a shared understanding -- what Jung called the "collective unconscious." Where the individual brain uses neurons and electrical impulses to think, society uses language and symbols.

Quote:

You believe that it is an entity itself, more important than the sum of the individuals.



I never said it was more important. Only that it has a character of its own.

Quote:

That the individuals become secondary to the collective. Their well-being and even their lives are ignored if the group has something to gain. The individuals are not recognized. They are merely a tool for the group.



Where did I say such a thing?

Quote:

False. We evolved as social animals, and as such, society is as necessary to our survival as a beehive is to a bee.

Society is necessary to our survival? How are you defining society? I ask, because circumstances come to mind whereby an individual can indeed survive without a "society". What is necessary for most people isn't necessary for all people, and in all situations. My point withstands. Note that I don't contend against the notion that society is necessary in certain respects and in certain senses, but that's has nothing to do with what I am referring to being necessitated, as with the metaphysically-given.



Sure, an individual can survive alone, but society is necessary to the survival of the species(another collective).

Quote:

Reason, perhaps. But thought is not necessarily unique to the individual. Group-think is common throughout the animal kingdom.

Sure, group-think is quite common. I can join a study-group, and think with them to focus our individual efforts into a given task at hand. The end result was the product of all our individual efforts combined together - and if there was some slacker that didn't do diddly-squat, then he is not to be credited for the success of the study-group. Moreover, words, concepts, and various mental-constructs may not be unique to the individual, just with many man-made things that we deal with in this world - but the creations that an individual creates out of these forms can certainly be unique as our fingerprints, fingerpaintings or conceptual variations and twists to such.



I do not deny that an individual can influence the collective, just as it is equally true that the collective influences us. In fact, the collective is a part of us. I would even go so far as to say that it is the more fundamental part of us. An individual can contribute great thoughts to the collective understanding, but he must first build on the collective understanding that he has inherited.


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Edited by Paradigm (03/14/06 10:16 PM)


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InvisibleMystikMushroom
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5401333 - 03/14/06 10:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

We can make our model of reality as complex or as simple as we want. My model changes daily according to my needs and feelings at the time.

If we continue our search inward and outward we will surley discover things beyond quarks and sub-atomic particles. The same applies to the macro-universe. We keep discovering new galaxies, alternative universes, paralell dimensions...ect, ect...we can go on forever and drive ourselves mad trying to find "the end; the answer"...when it's all so simple:

Everything *is* everything.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5401352 - 03/14/06 10:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Jiggy, from what you've wrote, am I to strike the conclusion that you believe I should not give credit for myself, that I should not have pride, nor think it good for an individual to take credit for their own work?

I have pride in myself for the great things I have accomplished that improved my life and the lives of people that I care about.

I am not, of course, blind to other's achievements - I am conscious of the fact that most of the ideas I hold true today have been discovered by others, and then that I have re-discovered them to be true through my own life. What I do is my achievement. My achievement is not independent on other's achievements, I am quite confident that every part of reality has some degree of influence on every other part of reality. But to what extent are my actions more dependent on myself than others? To quite a high degree, so high that I could claim that what I do is my achievement, and I am very confident that I very much am, can, and will be a hero.



You stand on the shoulders of giants and have the nerve to call yourself a hero? Please get your ego under control.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5401667 - 03/14/06 11:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You stand on the shoulders of giants and have the nerve to call yourself a hero? Please get your ego under control.

As I've already said, I am plenty cognizant of the fact that my achievements are not independent of other's achievements. This does not negate any heroic acts that I have, can and will commit. Everyone is entitled to be a hero in the myriad forms that they possibly can. Paradigm, you said you are planning to write a book on how to end world poverty. That is quite heroic of you, and I'd really like to see you accomplish it - even if only to succeed in publishing the book itself, so I could take pleasure in adding a special book in my collection - special because it would be the only book ever published by someone that I've had the pleasure to converse, debate and communicate with.

At any rate, I understand that you come from a religious/mystic bend and as such, you will undoubtedly [as evidenced here] dissent against any prideful exhibits of egoism, as you percieve it to be "anti-spiritual" or something along those lines. Yet, I hope you realize the very own egoism in your own dissents against my own egoism. What your statement really boils down to is: "I don't approve of you, and think you should change yourself according to my demands." Well, gee, how very egoist of you - but of course, there is nothing wrong with egoism itself.



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Re: The collective [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5401687 - 03/15/06 12:01 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

What your statement really boils down to is: "I don't approve of you, and think you should change yourself according to my demands."



Explain


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