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TheCow
Stranger

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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
#5399192 - 03/14/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I am just saying, these are all qualities assigned by humans. Sure a computer is more useful then just the silicon, metal and random stuff it is made from. But its the same thing, we as humans find it more useful. The universe could care less.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Merely a form of anthropomorphism. You are attempting to see a group of individuals as having a single identity similar to a person. This is the kind of attitude that gives rise to the evil ethical standard that is known as "collectivism".
A clump of cells come together to form the individual. How is that not the same thing happening on a different scale? Why do you only reduce the collective to the individual when the individual can be further reduced?
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
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Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
#5399284 - 03/14/06 01:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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A clump of cells come together to form the individual. How is that not the same thing happening on a different scale?
What you are neglecting is that this "different scale" which you allude to, is not metaphysical - it is man-made.
Why do you only reduce the collective to the individual when the individual can be further reduced?
The individual can be further reduced - but on what contexts are we talking about? If we are talking about the man-made, about the epistemological, about politics, about ethics, then the sub-division stops at the metaphysically-given. The metaphysically-given is absolute - there is only one way in which the metaphysically-given takes place. In other words, the metaphysically-given is necessitated, whereas man's actions, values, epistemology and volitionally-governed constructs are not necessitated..
To repeat, I refer to the last paragraph of my prior post.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: A clump of cells come together to form the individual. How is that not the same thing happening on a different scale?
What you are neglecting is that this "different scale" which you allude to, is not metaphysical - it is man-made.
"Man-made" only in the sense that it involves humans. Social behavior is part of our nature, and as such, so is understanding things in a social context, rather than merely an individual one.
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Why do you only reduce the collective to the individual when the individual can be further reduced?
The individual can be further reduced - but on what contexts are we talking about? If we are talking about the man-made, about the epistemological, about politics, about ethics, then the sub-division stops at the metaphysically-given. The metaphysically-given is absolute - there is only one way in which the metaphysically-given takes place. In other words, the metaphysically-given is necessitated, whereas man's actions, values, epistemology and volitionally-governed constructs are not necessitated..
False. We evolved as social animals, and as such, society is as necessary to our survival as a beehive is to a bee.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Posts: 23,576
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
#5399368 - 03/14/06 02:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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To repeat, I refer to the last paragraph of my prior post.
Very well, then. Let's have a look:
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Reason is an attribute of an individual.
Reason, perhaps. But thought is not necessarily unique to the individual. Group-think is common throughout the animal kingdom.
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One cannot think for or through another person any more than one can breathe or digest food for him.
True, an individual cannot think for or through another individual. But society is as much a part of us as we are of it.
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Each man's brain, like his lungs and stomach, is his alone to use.
Who is "he"? Oh, you mean the collective of organs and tissue known as the individual. Yes, I agree -- the individual parts belong to the collective which they comprise.
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We can learn from others, but learning is an active process; others do not implant their knowledge in a newbie by surgery or sorcery. Thinking in terms of groups when it comes to non-living entities is non-harmful, as such a reality is largely pre-determined. This is not the case with living, sentient and conscious beings, with the faculty of volition and reason.
Yes it is. Ants have individual brains, but they think and act much more as a group than they do individually. They, like us, and like nature itself, are a superorganism.
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rDr4g0n
Young Hand

Registered: 01/17/06
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Re: The collective [Re: TheCow]
#5399380 - 03/14/06 02:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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TheCow said: I am just saying, these are all qualities assigned by humans. Sure a computer is more useful then just the silicon, metal and random stuff it is made from. But its the same thing, we as humans find it more useful. The universe could care less.
have you read douglas adams "hitchhikers guide to the galaxy"? i know its entirely a silly fiction, but one of the highlights of the plot was that earth was a huge ultra complex computer that was created to solve the meaning of life.
us making computers may be part of some equation that something is watching. i know this is more scifi than anything, but to us a computer calculates answers and does something useful. in the same way, our planet may be someones abbacus...
also, i dont think i know enough long words to post on this particular forum : )
-------------------- i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck. My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)
Edited by rDr4g0n (03/14/06 02:18 PM)
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: The collective [Re: TheCow]
#5399424 - 03/14/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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But in reality it cannot be anymore then the sum of its parts, unless there is some magical force that only happens when people get together.
And that magical force is also known as creative energy/probabilities.
2 humans can turn themselves into 10 humans.
Say two humans want to become a group of four humans. In reality what math formuli can be utilized to create a predictable outcome of 4? What if on the second pregnancy triplets developed? The 2 that wanted to become a group of four and used math to believe 2 pregnancies would make that happen are now a group of 6 with just two pregnancies.
Thats reality.
Say that I want 21 columbine flowers in my garden next spring. How many seeds should I plant this spring? Who knows how many seeds the first seeds are going to bloom to drop new seeds and of the those which will take and bloom?
Where is the logical predictable math for all of this actual reality anyway?
Swinging around to the topic, I just created a garden in a corner of my yard. It is my garden, I created it all by myself.
Pfffffffffft-delusion!
I , me, myself- NONSENSE. The collective created that garden.
How many millions of humans went into creating me? How many humans gave me the ideas and inspiration for the design? How many humans went into creating the subdivision, home and that corner of yard I call mine? How many humans were involved in the creation and distribution of the materials purchased for the project? How many humans went into creating the corporation my husband works for that provides the money that purchased the materials?
And I have the nerve to say I created that garden all by myself and that it is mine? Ahahahahahahahaha
People can believe they sole handedly came into current being and sole handedly accomplish anything and that there is no such thing as THE Universal Collective, though there is little truth in such a reality.
I , me, mine, his, hers, theirs are all delusional words regarding true reality. The collective is behind all the posing singular fronts.
How much of this reply can I even solely take credit for making?
How many millions went into making me, my thoughts on it, the computer I am typing on, the english language, the time I have to type it, this message board, my interest in it, this forum, and this particular post that lead to my reply?
For as long as we live in the delusion of my cause, his cause, her cause, their cause, we will live in the fault of such delusion.
There is only we, us the collective of potential creative energy working in co-operation. When we realize that, the collective will start taking responsibility as one for everything that happens in a co-operative manor. It's how its always been and yet, how many see it and realize it as such? Separation is an illusion and a delusion of the mind and has little to do with the truth of reality.
It's easy to fall into such delusion where there is no love. A certain member here use to say that if I hit my toe with a hammer, he wouldn't feel my pain and that I am separate from him.
Where we feel love for life, what do we do when our pets, children, parents, friends, family get injured? We rush them to the doc/vet/hospital. Why? Think about it. Why would you and or do you? We feel their pain and want it to stop. I think anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.
I think they believed themselves out of the one collective, one love that is universal with delusions of separation.
Some people asscociate the word love with romaticism or sex. The love I reffer to is the the feeling you get when you realize the creative energy you are a part of within the collective.
Nice topic Paradigm! I was thinking about all of this in a new light a few hours before your post first went up.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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MystikMushroom
I RULE YOU!
Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 400
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
#5399776 - 03/14/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Paradigm said: Some believe that "collectives" such as society are nothing more than the sum of the individuals that comprise it. I wonder why you would stop there. After all, by that logic, each individual is just the sum of the cells in their body, right? And of course each cell is just a collective of different atoms, which are themselves collective entities comprised of protons, neutrons, and electrons. And of course each proton and neutron is a collective of quarks. So, why not just say that society is nothing more than the sum of subatomic particles comprising it? Hell, why not go further? According to string theory, each subatomic particle is the result of energy strings vibrating at different frequencies. So there we have it: Society is the sum total of energy vibrations that compose the matter of which it is made.
Or perhaps something can be greater than the sum of its parts?
Well, I could give you this as an explaination: As above, so below.
You went down in scale by mentioning cells, and then smaller than that...but also think the oposite direction. Whole planets, solar systems, galaxies, universes...ect, ect. The more we look the more we discover. Both directions go to infinity.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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MystikMushroom
I RULE YOU!
Registered: 10/11/04
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Re: The collective [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5399808 - 03/14/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I guess, we are all part of a system of infinite systems. . . You could think of individual humans as the most advanced product of mother earth, her offspring if you will. Created by yet a larger system, earth us humans are...Just as we create microchips and designer research chemicals for hallucinating.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
MystikMushroom said: Well, I could give you this as an explaination: As above, so below.
You went down in scale by mentioning cells, and then smaller than that...but also think the oposite direction. Whole planets, solar systems, galaxies, universes...ect, ect. The more we look the more we discover. Both directions go to infinity.
I wouldn't say they go to infinity, per se. But I would say that both lead to a single observation:
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
#5400317 - 03/14/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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"We Are All One", sounds catchy n' all... but I feel, "We Are All Part of One Perpetual Process" is more accurate, since the universe definitely contains differations and variations of forms and functions.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: "We Are All One", sounds catchy n' all... but I feel, "We Are All Part of One Perpetual Process" is more accurate, since the universe definitely contains differations and variations of forms and functions.
Yes, that would be one way of saying it, when looking at the macro level. On the micro level, we could say "We Are All One Substance," as this describes what string theory is telling us. There are other more mystical interpretations of the saying which I'll spare you, but the point is that "We Are All One" captures the essential truth at all those levels.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
#5400388 - 03/14/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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(Reply to original post)
To put it in biological jargon, something is "greater than the sum of its parts" in the sense that groupings of individuals cells called tissues (and the grouping of tissues into organs) can perform an entirely new and greater function which individual cells cannot. For instance, the gastrointestinal tract is able to ingest, absorb, and excrete food which individual cells would never be able to on their own.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (03/14/06 06:36 PM)
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
#5400459 - 03/14/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I dunno much bout String theory, but at the mirco-level I'd say: "We Are All Composed of Different Atoms that Are Causally Related to One Another." The eternal causal relationship between everything is what I call 'The Perpetual Process'. Kinda like Dao.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
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Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
#5401148 - 03/14/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Social behavior is part of our nature, and as such, so is understanding things in a social context, rather than merely an individual one.
I have no problem agreeing that understandings pertinent to society serve useful purpose. Where I disagree is with your contention that the concept of a "collective" is anything more than anthropomorphism.
Paradigm wrote: " the group acquires characteristics and behaviors of its own. It acts as its own entity."
So I take it you believe that the group has ideas, and can think. It has purpose, and it acts to achieve goals. It even has a personality, called culture. You believe that it is an entity itself, more important than the sum of the individuals. That the individuals become secondary to the collective. Their well-being and even their lives are ignored if the group has something to gain. The individuals are not recognized. They are merely a tool for the group.
False. We evolved as social animals, and as such, society is as necessary to our survival as a beehive is to a bee.
Society is necessary to our survival? How are you defining society? I ask, because circumstances come to mind whereby an individual can indeed survive without a "society". What is necessary for most people isn't necessary for all people, and in all situations. My point withstands. Note that I don't contend against the notion that society is necessary in certain respects and in certain senses, but that's has nothing to do with what I am referring to being necessitated, as with the metaphysically-given.
Reason, perhaps. But thought is not necessarily unique to the individual. Group-think is common throughout the animal kingdom.
Sure, group-think is quite common. I can join a study-group, and think with them to focus our individual efforts into a given task at hand. The end result was the product of all our individual efforts combined together - and if there was some slacker that didn't do diddly-squat, then he is not to be credited for the success of the study-group. Moreover, words, concepts, and various mental-constructs may not be unique to the individual, just with many man-made things that we deal with in this world - but the creations that an individual creates out of these forms can certainly be unique as our fingerprints, fingerpaintings or conceptual variations and twists to such.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Jiggy, from what you've wrote, am I to strike the conclusion that you believe I should not give credit for myself, that I should not have pride, nor think it good for an individual to take credit for their own work?
I have pride in myself for the great things I have accomplished that improved my life and the lives of people that I care about.
I am not, of course, blind to other's achievements - I am conscious of the fact that most of the ideas I hold true today have been discovered by others, and then that I have re-discovered them to be true through my own life. What I do is my achievement. My achievement is not independent on other's achievements, I am quite confident that every part of reality has some degree of influence on every other part of reality. But to what extent are my actions more dependent on myself than others? To quite a high degree, so high that I could claim that what I do is my achievement, and I am very confident that I very much am, can, and will be a hero.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: Social behavior is part of our nature, and as such, so is understanding things in a social context, rather than merely an individual one.
I have no problem agreeing that understandings pertinent to society serve useful purpose. Where I disagree is with your contention that the concept of a "collective" is anything more than anthropomorphism.
You are certainly free to deny the obvious if you so choose.
Quote:
Paradigm wrote: " the group acquires characteristics and behaviors of its own. It acts as its own entity."
So I take it you believe that the group has ideas, and can think. It has purpose, and it acts to achieve goals. It even has a personality, called culture.
The term "thinking" will just get us into trouble with semantics. But society does have a shared understanding -- what Jung called the "collective unconscious." Where the individual brain uses neurons and electrical impulses to think, society uses language and symbols.
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You believe that it is an entity itself, more important than the sum of the individuals.
I never said it was more important. Only that it has a character of its own.
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That the individuals become secondary to the collective. Their well-being and even their lives are ignored if the group has something to gain. The individuals are not recognized. They are merely a tool for the group.
Where did I say such a thing?
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False. We evolved as social animals, and as such, society is as necessary to our survival as a beehive is to a bee.
Society is necessary to our survival? How are you defining society? I ask, because circumstances come to mind whereby an individual can indeed survive without a "society". What is necessary for most people isn't necessary for all people, and in all situations. My point withstands. Note that I don't contend against the notion that society is necessary in certain respects and in certain senses, but that's has nothing to do with what I am referring to being necessitated, as with the metaphysically-given.
Sure, an individual can survive alone, but society is necessary to the survival of the species(another collective).
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Reason, perhaps. But thought is not necessarily unique to the individual. Group-think is common throughout the animal kingdom.
Sure, group-think is quite common. I can join a study-group, and think with them to focus our individual efforts into a given task at hand. The end result was the product of all our individual efforts combined together - and if there was some slacker that didn't do diddly-squat, then he is not to be credited for the success of the study-group. Moreover, words, concepts, and various mental-constructs may not be unique to the individual, just with many man-made things that we deal with in this world - but the creations that an individual creates out of these forms can certainly be unique as our fingerprints, fingerpaintings or conceptual variations and twists to such.
I do not deny that an individual can influence the collective, just as it is equally true that the collective influences us. In fact, the collective is a part of us. I would even go so far as to say that it is the more fundamental part of us. An individual can contribute great thoughts to the collective understanding, but he must first build on the collective understanding that he has inherited.
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Edited by Paradigm (03/14/06 10:16 PM)
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MystikMushroom
I RULE YOU!
Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 400
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
#5401333 - 03/14/06 10:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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We can make our model of reality as complex or as simple as we want. My model changes daily according to my needs and feelings at the time.
If we continue our search inward and outward we will surley discover things beyond quarks and sub-atomic particles. The same applies to the macro-universe. We keep discovering new galaxies, alternative universes, paralell dimensions...ect, ect...we can go on forever and drive ourselves mad trying to find "the end; the answer"...when it's all so simple:
Everything *is* everything.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: Jiggy, from what you've wrote, am I to strike the conclusion that you believe I should not give credit for myself, that I should not have pride, nor think it good for an individual to take credit for their own work?
I have pride in myself for the great things I have accomplished that improved my life and the lives of people that I care about.
I am not, of course, blind to other's achievements - I am conscious of the fact that most of the ideas I hold true today have been discovered by others, and then that I have re-discovered them to be true through my own life. What I do is my achievement. My achievement is not independent on other's achievements, I am quite confident that every part of reality has some degree of influence on every other part of reality. But to what extent are my actions more dependent on myself than others? To quite a high degree, so high that I could claim that what I do is my achievement, and I am very confident that I very much am, can, and will be a hero.
You stand on the shoulders of giants and have the nerve to call yourself a hero? Please get your ego under control.
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