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Shop: PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleSilversoul
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The collective
    #5395483 - 03/13/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Some believe that "collectives" such as society are nothing more than the sum of the individuals that comprise it. I wonder why you would stop there. After all, by that logic, each individual is just the sum of the cells in their body, right? And of course each cell is just a collective of different atoms, which are themselves collective entities comprised of protons, neutrons, and electrons. And of course each proton and neutron is a collective of quarks. So, why not just say that society is nothing more than the sum of subatomic particles comprising it? Hell, why not go further? According to string theory, each subatomic particle is the result of energy strings vibrating at different frequencies. So there we have it: Society is the sum total of energy vibrations that compose the matter of which it is made.

Or perhaps something can be greater than the sum of its parts?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5395530 - 03/13/06 03:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, I am going insane about this fundamental question as well...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post5182498


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5395545 - 03/13/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

..it can even be 'less than' the sum of its parts!

:crazy2: :thumbup:


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Disclaimer!?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The collective [Re: Gomp]
    #5395725 - 03/13/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

greater than, or less than, is subjective. Worth and meaning are an abstract by-product of human perception of reality.


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5397334 - 03/13/06 11:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Have you read this?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5397348 - 03/13/06 11:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Because its irrelevent. Sure you can say its the sum of the subatomic particles, but if they are equal, then you can use substitution and arrive back at the sum of people. So frankly I dont see what point you could be making at all.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: TheCow]
    #5397973 - 03/14/06 07:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
So frankly I dont see what point you could be making at all.



Probably because you can't see that an organism is something other than just the sum of its parts, and likewise, social groups are not just the sum of the individuals within it.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5398017 - 03/14/06 07:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

TheCow said:
So frankly I dont see what point you could be making at all.



Probably because you can't see that an organism is something other than just the sum of its parts




What else is it?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5398034 - 03/14/06 07:33 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

TheCow said:
So frankly I dont see what point you could be making at all.



Probably because you can't see that an organism is something other than just the sum of its parts




What else is it?



An entity unto itself.


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InvisibleDarkcloud
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5398074 - 03/14/06 07:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

A virus, perhaps.


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:poison: :poison: :poison:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: Darkcloud]
    #5398095 - 03/14/06 07:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

huh?


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: The collective [Re: Darkcloud]
    #5398146 - 03/14/06 08:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Darkcloud said:
A virus, perhaps.




Check this out:

http://www.discover.com/issues/mar-06/cover/


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The collective [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5398327 - 03/14/06 09:42 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

So Paradigm, why then, isnt every level applied to your collective theory?

Why arent the sum of all the quarks which make up the atom which is part of a molecule that is part of a hair protruding from my left testicle greater than the sum of its parts?

what is to stop you from going infinitly big? that our human collective isnt just part of a universal collective, and that the universal collective isnt part of the parallel universal collective, and that the parallel universal collective isnt a part of an even greater collective?

and what do you mean by greater? you say the sum of the parts are greater, and I dont need to tell you that the term is subjective, so what is it dependant upon? who is the final observer/judge upon the greatness of this supposed collective?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5398437 - 03/14/06 10:06 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
So Paradigm, why then, isnt every level applied to your collective theory?



Eh?

Quote:

Why arent the sum of all the quarks which make up the atom which is part of a molecule that is part of a hair protruding from my left testicle greater than the sum of its parts?



Who says they aren't?

Quote:

what is to stop you from going infinitly big? that our human collective isnt just part of a universal collective, and that the universal collective isnt part of the parallel universal collective, and that the parallel universal collective isnt a part of an even greater collective?



Nothing. These are all true.

Quote:

and what do you mean by greater? you say the sum of the parts are greater, and I dont need to tell you that the term is subjective, so what is it dependant upon? who is the final observer/judge upon the greatness of this supposed collective?



Don't get too caught up on the word "greater." I simply mean that it is qualitatively different from any individual part that makes it up.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5398583 - 03/14/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

This is no different from reiterating the fact that an entity is the sum of its parts. Existence, the totality of all existents, is the sum of its parts.

A house can be explained by reference to the wood, metal, and glass that are combined in that particular way to form the house. Or it could be explained in terms of the atoms that form it. These are all true, because the entity is a sum of its parts. Depending on what we specify as an 'entity', it has a particular identity. This identity exists objectively. We may choose to focus on a particular part of an entity, and discover the identity of that part, but it doesn't contradict the identity of the whole.


Or perhaps something can be greater than the sum of its parts?

Metaphysically speaking, an entity can only be the sum of its parts - nothing else.
Epistemologically speaking, that's another story.



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5398609 - 03/14/06 10:55 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

We may choose to focus on a particular part of an entity, and discover the identity of that part, but it doesn't contradict the identity of the whole.



Well of course it doesn't contradict the identity of the whole, but it doesn't mean that you add up the parts and you get that entity. There is an identity to the entity which is not found in any of the parts that make it up, but rather arises from the group.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5399045 - 03/14/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

TheCow said:
So frankly I dont see what point you could be making at all.



Probably because you can't see that an organism is something other than just the sum of its parts, and likewise, social groups are not just the sum of the individuals within it.



That is a quality you are assigning to it. But in reality it cannot be anymore then the sum of its parts, unless there is some magical force that only happens when people get together. Just because people behave differently in a large group, doesnt mean it still isnt the sum of its parts.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The collective [Re: TheCow]
    #5399056 - 03/14/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It is not just that people behave differently in groups, but rather that the group acquires characteristics and behaviors of its own. It acts as its own entity.


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5399180 - 03/14/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

by itself a piece of metal and silicon arent really anything interesting. when theyre assembled correctly, the sum of their parts is much much greater than the parts by themselves. a computer is so much more useful than a pile of copper and silicon.

filling a room with computers doesnt necessarily mean that the collection of the computers is greater since theyre all together. they need to be networked to increase their value as a group of computers.

there needs to be a special connection between the "parts" for them to be worth more as a collective than as individuals. a collective of humans working towards a similar goal can be more powerful than a collective of humans doing random crap.

so something being greater than the sum of its parts wouldnt be a universal law that scales microscopically or macroscopically. what matters is how the parts connect. our bodies connect in a way that makes a soul. our souls can connect in a way that makes communities and families. then we are greater.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The collective [Re: Silversoul]
    #5399181 - 03/14/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

but it doesn't mean that you add up the parts and you get that entity.

That depends on what we specify as an entity. If we refer to the entity that is known as a "nail" in a 4x4, then that particular entity is the sum of its parts.


There is an identity to the entity which is not found in any of the parts that make it up, but rather arises from the group.

Incorrect. In essence you are saying that there is an identity which a specific entity is a part of, yet it is in no way metaphysically inter-connected.
Taking from your reference to the String Theory, let us say that science vindicates the theory that vibrational strings of meta-energy is the ultimate ingredients of the universe; the irreducible building blocks of existence. This means that there is an entity which all existents are a part of, and in which all existents arises from - not the reverse.


rather that the group acquires characteristics and behaviors of its own. It acts as its own entity.

Merely a form of anthropomorphism. You are attempting to see a group of individuals as having a single identity similar to a person. This is the kind of attitude that gives rise to the evil ethical standard that is known as "collectivism".

Trace such an attitude to its roots, and you will find the fundamental axiom: Primacy of Consciousness, which typically gives rise to such notions of "collective consciousness".

Reason is an attribute of an individual. One cannot think for or through another person any more than one can breathe or digest food for him. Each man's brain, like his lungs and stomach, is his alone to use. We can learn from others, but learning is an active process; others do not implant their knowledge in a newbie by surgery or sorcery. Thinking in terms of groups when it comes to non-living entities is non-harmful, as such a reality is largely pre-determined. This is not the case with living, sentient and conscious beings, with the faculty of volition and reason.



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