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InvisibleXochipili
journeyman
Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 68
Are clones better?
    #539281 - 02/03/02 02:36 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

will spawn from a cloned fruitbody be more consistent and produvtive than from a jar of non-cloned spawn? The non-cloned spawn in this case would be just mycelium from a petri dish.


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Invisiblealtarego
member
Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 130
Re: Are clones better? [Re: Xochipili]
    #539342 - 02/03/02 04:10 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

That all depends on what is in your petri dish, and the strength of the clone. If the dish contains a multi-strain culture, and the clone is a good fruiter, then presumably the pure strain will be a more consistent fruiter.

Of course the multi-strain dish could have a better strain in it, making it the winner.

In other words, its hard to say with the details you provided, but in general a healthy, vigorous pure strain will give better yields and consistent results.

A good method I use is to fruit a multispore culture, clone the best five mushrooms, and work with those to find the best of the lot.

- AE


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OfflineElektrolurch
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Registered: 05/02/00
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Re: Are clones better? [Re: altarego]
    #539930 - 02/04/02 04:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Like altarego wrote, the best way is to fruit a multispore germination and choose some of the best fruits for cloning.

I should add something though, some species, like Pan. cyan and probably other Panaeoli, don't fruit easily when a culture was isolated from a multispore germination. It has probably to do with the different genetics of these species. If I don't remember wrong, Pan cyan has more mating posibilities than Psi cubensis, producing, from a given sporesample, more different dikaryotic mycellia that cannot fruit.

On the other hand mushrooms like Psilocybes tend to have no fruitability problems. I use for Psi. cubensis only clones, until the culture shows scencens, then I start from scratch with spores...

Elektrolurch


--------------------
"For all the time spent in that room
The doll's house, darkness, old perfume
And fairy stories held me high on
Clouds of sunlight floating by.", Pink Floyd '67


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Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
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Registered: 01/19/99
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Re: Are clones better? [Re: Elektrolurch]
    #540195 - 02/04/02 01:12 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I agree completely. I also noticed more trouble isolating strains with the pans. Best to just fruit and clone.
I just wanted to add that it's usually a lot longer before senescense shows up than many people think. The idea of a strain degrading through repeated cloning is true, and we've learned our lessons with the mexicannas etc. but I've seen a cube culture used continuously for more than a year with no signs of decline. YMMV.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblealtarego
member
Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 130
Re: Are clones better? [Re: Elektrolurch]
    #540285 - 02/04/02 03:19 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Elektro -

Concerning the pans, does that mean that you return to a multispore innoculum each time? Or do you just keep a multispore culture going on agar?

I'm not sure how one might avoid pure strain culture without returning to spore syringes each time.

- AE


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InvisibleXochipili
journeyman
Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 68
Re: Are clones better? [Re: altarego]
    #540314 - 02/04/02 03:47 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

yeh i kinda expected that kind of answer. i meant overall. i realize there is no concrete ,100%, all the time answer as to which is better. like with a multispore you are getting a lot more spores going into the mix. this may produce a huge shroom. on the other hand, a clone may produce great spawn because it fruits evenly or something. it seems more really nice flushes(even and good size)are produced with a cloed fruit. it makes sense to me because the entire tray would be from one tiny piece of the fruit cloned and propagated on agar. I guess its a matter of ones view.


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Anonymous

Re: Are clones better? [Re: Elektrolurch]
    #540388 - 02/04/02 05:20 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Cubensis itself is sometimes 2, or 3 spored versus the normal 4 spored. Pan. cyans and cambodginiensis are 4 spored, the former occasionally 2 spored. Pan. tropicalis is 2 spored.

Cubenis, Pan. cyans, and Pan. cambodginiensis should all have the same breeding system. Heterolthallic.

Pan. tropicalis is probably different, because of the 2 spored basidia. Probably some type of homothallic breeding strategy.
Homothallic systems are easier to obtain fruits from, one type just requires a period of time to pass before the dikaryotic colony emerges, the other type it is germinated dikaryotic. Some strains will just be more vigourous then others!!!!

In the case of the other 4 spored pans. cyans, and cambodginiensis, the system will either be identical too cubensis, or it will be unifactorial, in which case it should be far easier to obtain a fruiting strain, not more difficult.

I think the hardest part of selecting from a multispore germination of Panaeolus species, is the fact that it all looks similar. Unlike cubensis, where once sectors show, the good ones tend to be very RHIZOMORPHIC. Panaeoulus is more linear, and heavily branched, even cottony appearing when many strains are growing overlapped. Once several isolations are done from the multispore, it's true appearance is easily recognized, but it does take a few transfers. Cubensis you can spot at the edge of the multispore germination petri, and can isolate pure in one transfer if you are very careful. The Pan. cyans and cambodginiensis might take a few more transfers before you are left with a single strain.

The 2 spored tropicalis , if it is homothallic, the majority or all of the spores germinating will either be DIKARYOTIC already, or will become dikaryotic after a period of time remaining as monkaryotic. This later homothallic type could be a little troublesome. But the majority of strains with this type of breeding system will FRUIT, they just do so at varying degrees. Some will not.

As weird as it seems, Cubensis shares with the majority of 4 spored fungus, the hardest type of breeding system for isolation of fruiting colonies. It just happens to have one of the easiest appearances for isolation. It is extremely RHIZOMORPHIC, it is the NAME SAKE MUSHROOM for the term RHIZOMORPHIC.

WHEN EVERYTHING ON THE PLATE LOOKS ALIKE, IT IS EASIER TO MAKE BAD CHOICES.

I have had no trouble isolating fruiting strains of any of the Psilocybin mushrooms I had the ability to test for fruitability. The hardest looking stuff for isolation I have seen yet was the P. semilanceata and the P. samuiensis, but the latter readily pins on agar, so It is easy to find the fruiters. The semilanceata looks like a complete guessing game on agar, but I can't even try too fruit it down here anyways.

Not to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, I had absolutely no trouble isolating a Fruiter from the each Panaeolus species, from multispore germinations on agar.

As usually though, it is easiest to go spore to substrate to fruit to clone!!!! Then you don't have to play the guessing game. I just love to see uniformity appear out of chaos, for each and every one of these fungus. Multispores on agar are amazing to watch.

Peace Teonan


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OfflineAzure
old hand
Registered: 01/01/99
Posts: 469
Loc: California, USA
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Are clones better? [Re: ]
    #540820 - 02/05/02 01:47 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

That's weird, Teonan, because I've observed that P. semis actually sector more readily than the typical cottony mycelium of the pans. However, it's a million times slower growing, and it has been two months and only 1/3 of the dish has been colonized. Have you noticed that Ps. semilanceata has some sectors that are slightly brown with age?


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Anonymous

Re: Are clones better? [Re: Azure]
    #540852 - 02/05/02 02:20 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

With the pans, I don't see them as cottony at all. Once you transfer several times, they actually got pretty intermmediate looking to me. Lots of fine branches. But on the first couple transfers, it seemed like there were strains numbering in the twenties or thirties. All growing on top of each other, this gave them a cottony appearance, once I got singles isolated they were very finely linear, but not cottony at all.

Yah, my semi's seemed to take forever. I kept thinking I had isolated monokaryons. They sectored for me too, and isolating wasn't difficult, they just all seemed to look identical to me. Very low growing, almost powdery in appearance, mine were completely white. To me it was the slowest growing stuff yet, and all looked identical. I think I am gonna germinate again, and see what happens, not that I can fruit them or anything in south Florida. But it was some weird stuff. No contamination, just weird.


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OfflineElektrolurch
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Registered: 05/02/00
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Re: Are clones better? [Re: altarego]
    #540898 - 02/05/02 03:35 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I keep a multispore culture on stock :wink:

Elektrolurch


--------------------
"For all the time spent in that room
The doll's house, darkness, old perfume
And fairy stories held me high on
Clouds of sunlight floating by.", Pink Floyd '67


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OfflineElektrolurch
enthusiast
Registered: 05/02/00
Posts: 307
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: Are clones better? [Re: ]
    #540906 - 02/05/02 03:43 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, that explains it,

"WHEN EVERYTHING ON THE PLATE LOOKS ALIKE, IT IS EASIER TO MAKE BAD CHOICES. "

Probably that happend to me some times and therefore I tend to use  multispore germination.

The last time someone send me a clone of a Pan. cyan, it turned out to be a cubensis :wink:

"It is extremely RHIZOMORPHIC, it is the NAME SAKE MUSHROOM for the term RHIZOMORPHIC. "

I still got impressed by the ryzomorphes of Psi. azurescens and specialy by the ones of Psi cyanescens though!

"breeding system. Heterolthallic"
I was not thinking about the breeding system, but about the different "sexes" that the mushroom has. If I remeber right, only a fraction of the matings produce fruitable mycellia, but I would have to read the literature again...


Elektrolurch


--------------------
"For all the time spent in that room
The doll's house, darkness, old perfume
And fairy stories held me high on
Clouds of sunlight floating by.", Pink Floyd '67


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Anonymous

Re: Are clones better? [Re: Elektrolurch]
    #541698 - 02/05/02 10:20 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Thats what heterothallic means. If it is tetrapolar and heterothallic, one spore germinates and can only successfully mate with 1/4 of the remaining spores to form a fertile dikaryotic colony. You will get false matings with some of the other 3/4 of the remaining spores. This is where the possible non-fruiters comes from, the remaining 3/4 of the spores where false matings might happen.

I was just stating that it is very RARE to isolate a very rhizomorphic strain of cubensis and have it not fruit, the non fruiters tend to be off-type looking sectors. This is the ease that comes with cubensis, and why it appears to be easier to isolate fruiters. It is not a breeding ease, but an appearance ease. Pans are very cottony looking when they are multispored together on agar. But after several isolations, uniformity and stability arrises, and it is not cottony looking, but more linear with heavy, fine branching.

I agree, the azures can be very rhizomorphic, especially on substrates. I found it to be less rhizo on agar. Haven't germinated a P. cyanescens on agar yet, it is RHIZO?


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OfflineElektrolurch
enthusiast
Registered: 05/02/00
Posts: 307
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: Are clones better? [Re: ]
    #542081 - 02/06/02 04:23 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

On Agar not so much, on wood chips also not that much. But put it outside on wet branches, it's about the heaviest ryzomorphic growth I have seen.

The other one I have seen to produce extremely ryzomorphic growth is the Psi. semperviva after a while in non "eatable" environments. It produces on the sides of the trays or agar plates after a while very weird looking condensed ryzomorphic mycellia. See e.g.



It looks almost like a pseudorhyza.

One thing is for sure, ryzomorphic mycellia is much easier to cultivate on non homogeneous material (like straw), while linear or cottony mycellia likes more homogeneous ones (like dung).

Do you know a good mycology book that concentrates on basidiomycetes, no descriptions of the species but more about the morphology and the genetics?

Elektrolurch


--------------------
"For all the time spent in that room
The doll's house, darkness, old perfume
And fairy stories held me high on
Clouds of sunlight floating by.", Pink Floyd '67


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Anonymous

Re: Are clones better? [Re: Elektrolurch]
    #542135 - 02/06/02 05:09 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I think you will have a difficult time finding many texts that focus entirely on Basidomycetes. Most Mycology texts are GENERAL. Morphology, Pathology, Physiology, Taxonomy will be the specialization. You will find books that focus on one of these categories, but they will be in relation to all the fungal groups.

Introductory mycology, Alexopoulos, C. J. and C.W. Mims.

Evolution in Higher Basidiomycetes, R.S. Peterson

Morphology of Plants and Fungi, Bold/Alexopoulos/Delevoryas

These are older texts.

Do a search on any online bookstore, you will probably find more recent stuff. I have found GOOD books at the local community college, but nothing like the science library at University of FLORIDA, or any other Agricultural school. I sure do miss being up there in Gainesville.

All of my mycology education was Plant pathology based during school hours. Very little dealt with higher fungi. Not much money is thrown around at the research level for non-pathogenic fungi. Other then basic taxonomy, and possibly pharmacology. They used to study stuff for the sake of studying it. Now you have to see dollar signs at the end of the study!!!!

Most of the good stuff is in the JOURNALS, not the texts. Just get a basic mycology text in each of the fields of Physiology, Morhology, Taxonomy, and Genetics. Then hit a research Library with access to journals!!!! The information is out there, but unless you want to pay a fortune for it, USE A UNIVERSITY LIBRARY.


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Anonymous

Re: Are clones better? [Re: Elektrolurch]
    #542148 - 02/06/02 05:17 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

On the P. semperviva, what was the time to pin from casing? What substrates did you try? What temps did you fruit them at?

Is that straw at the base of those shrooms? I got the stuff on grains, and on a seed/manure mix, did you try a range of substrates or just went straight to straw?


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OfflineElektrolurch
enthusiast
Registered: 05/02/00
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Re: Are clones better? [Re: ]
    #542279 - 02/06/02 10:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"what was the time to pin from casing?"
Maybe 2 weeks but could also be 2.5 weeks. They don't need as long to pin, but to mature. They can take up to some weeks to drop spores. I had some that lived over a month!


"What substrates did you try?"
directly on rye, straw spawned with 10 % rye, grass seed (but it got contaminated, so no info about that one)

"What temps did you fruit them at?"

They like rather lower room temps, i.e. about 20 C, they didn't like higher ones (up to 30 C), but 24 C work also great.

"Is that straw at the base of those shrooms?"

Only one has a piece of straw (the one that is obvious) the other "things" is the "ryzomorphic"/"pseudorhyza" mycellia I wrote about.

"did you try a range of substrates or just went straight to straw?"

I reserached about their naturall sourroundings, and therefore didn't even tried to use dung. Heim & Cailleux tried compost and hadn't good results. Their best results where with fermented corn straw. Therefore I went straight to straw and tried parallel rye to compare. Straw was a lot better than rye. Probably rye is a too rich substrate.

They need completelly different conditions than the Paneoli. Probably the fruitbodies would abhort if held at such conditions. I couldn't manage to grow Panaeoli & semperviva at the same time. They need VERY HIGH humidities..

Did you get the spores from ralphster?

Elektrolurch


--------------------
"For all the time spent in that room
The doll's house, darkness, old perfume
And fairy stories held me high on
Clouds of sunlight floating by.", Pink Floyd '67


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Anonymous

Re: Are clones better? [Re: ]
    #542625 - 02/06/02 04:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for the info!!! Yes the spores are from Ralph.

Yes, I realized there was just one piece of straw there. Very matted stuff connecting the shrooms to the straw.
So low 70's for fruiting. 14- 20 days for pins, but very long maturation process.
And they need high humidity for maturation. That explains the lengthy maturation process.

Thanks again
Teonan


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation >> Mushroom Cultivation Archive >> Substrates

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