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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5392041 - 03/12/06 02:02 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
The essential truth which all religions teach is that you are a part of something greater than yourself.

Because it is in our very nature to understand ourselves as part of a group, and rightly so. Our individual self only exists in relation to others.


How is "being part of something greater" religious instead of evolutionary?



It is evolutionary. Religion simply expands upon this understanding, and turns it into a basis of morality.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392082 - 03/12/06 02:20 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

I'm simply asking how an emotional response such as empathy indicates anything beyond the organism itself.



Because it is in our very nature to understand ourselves as part of a group, and rightly so. Our individual self only exists in relation to others.




Others only exist in relation to our individual selves. We are only "part of a group" insofar as we share similar traits with other organisms. If it is only through empathy that we can experience this higher union, what about those that experience apathy? Are they not part of this group that you speak of?

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392089 - 03/12/06 02:23 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Others only exist in relation to our individual selves. We are only "part of a group" insofar as we share similar traits with other organisms.



Do you deny that human beings are social animals?

Quote:

If it is only through empathy that we can experience this higher union, what about those that experience apathy? Are they not part of this group that you speak of?



No, they are still part of the group, but they do not understand it.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392104 - 03/12/06 02:27 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Others only exist in relation to our individual selves. We are only "part of a group" insofar as we share similar traits with other organisms.



Do you deny that human beings are social animals?




Some of them are. Others can hardly function in a society.

Quote:

If it is only through empathy that we can experience this higher union, what about those that experience apathy? Are they not part of this group that you speak of?



No, they are still part of the group, but they do not understand it.




What group? Mammals?

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392109 - 03/12/06 02:29 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Some of them are. Others can hardly function in a society.



Yes. Such people have psychological disorders. In fact, there is a medical term for one who lacks empathy: psychopath.

Quote:

What group? Mammals?



Society


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392130 - 03/12/06 02:36 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Some of them are. Others can hardly function in a society.



Yes. Such people have psychological disorders. In fact, there is a medical term for one who lacks empathy: psychopath.




Going as far as to say that anyone who does not feel naturally predisposed to the confines of society is a psychopath is quite a stretch. Quite a stretch indeed.

Quote:

What group? Mammals?



Society




Society is a construct, it is no way inherent.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392143 - 03/12/06 02:39 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Going as far as to say that anyone who does not feel naturally predisposed to the confines of society is a psychopath is quite a stretch. Quite a stretch indeed.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

Quote:

Society is a construct, it is no way inherent.



I would say the same for the individual self.


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392154 - 03/12/06 02:43 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

by classyfrying people u just d/v/de us

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392173 - 03/12/06 02:48 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Going as far as to say that anyone who does not feel naturally predisposed to the confines of society is a psychopath is quite a stretch. Quite a stretch indeed.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy




"...characterised by lack of empathy or conscience, poor impulse control and manipulative behaviors."

With those criteria, I think we could safely assume that a large portion of humanity is psychopathic. In fact, society itself is fueled by this type of behavior, so where do we draw the line between a disorder and a human condition?

Quote:

Society is a construct, it is no way inherent.



I would say the same for the individual self.




The individual is the organism's sensory awareness of itself, which is inherent to its consciousness, and a direct product of its natural biological processes. Society is a conceptual, temporary human construct which is easily dissipated and constantly changing.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392195 - 03/12/06 02:56 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Or more accurately, an ego that does not understand its place is destructive.

An ego should, on rational and evidential basis, choose their own place in their own lives. Any idea, concept, or religion that attempts to rob people of this individual freedom is downright evil.


The essential truth which all religions teach is that you are a part of something greater than yourself.

CoughcollectivismCough. I have nothing wrong with recognizing the existence of mankind. However, it is more important to recognize that our own lives are ends in themselves. I, am the manager of my own life - not anyone else or some anthropomorphic concept of society.
Of course mankind, by definition, is not all about "moi". Such attitudes alone, however, are prone to leading into collectivism and altruism. As such, one must understand that: your individual life is all about you. Ultimately, it is all about you.


I would agree, except that the reality that the uncompassionate evade is the reality that they are a part of something more important than themselves.

I disagree. The uncompassionate evade the fact that they are uncompassionate to themselves, i.e., the fact that their own lives are ends in themselves, i.e., the fact that they've been fooled into thinking it is evil to be selfish and "morally good" to be altruistic - and proceed to exhibit myriad contradictory actions, i.e., the fact that they are not in control of their own lives with productive purposes, i.e., the fact that they lack a rational, consistent philosophy that is consistent with their goals and desired accomplishments.


The core teachings of all these world religions leads to a single conclusion: Get over yourself!

Uh-huh. Just like damn near all those quotes from various religions in the parent post - observe how almost all of them negate and attack pride, which is the opposite of humility. Here is another case of individualism vs collectivism, whereby individualism supports pride and collectivism supports humility. As opposed to the crown of virtues, humility is the poison of virtues. Every act of virtue is cause for scorn, because you are attempting to be good. Instead of accepting yourself as a worm, you are trying to be human. This is a great sin in many ethical systems. If you are happy about who you are, you will want to live for yourself. This is clearly unacceptable in ethical systems, such as altruism, where you are to sacrifice yourself for others. Pride gets in the way of sacrifice. Only humility serves that end.




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5392203 - 03/12/06 02:59 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
However, it is more important to recognize that our own lives are ends in themselves. I, am the manager of my own life - not anyone else or some anthropomorphic concept of society.
Of course mankind, by definition, is not all about "moi". Such attitudes alone, however, are prone to leading into collectivism and altruism. As such, one must understand that: your individual life is all about you. Ultimately, it is all about you.




Word.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392212 - 03/12/06 03:02 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

"...characterised by lack of empathy or conscience, poor impulse control and manipulative behaviors."

With those criteria, I think we could safely assume that a large portion of humanity is psychopathic. In fact, society itself is fueled by this type of behavior, so where do we draw the line between a disorder and a human condition?



Well, first of all, I would have to ask what you consider to be a "large portion" of humanity. I think that, in spite of what the cynics may say, most people do possess empathy, conscience, and a reasonable degree of impulse control. These are all things that make us human.

Quote:

The individual is the organism's sensory awareness of itself, which is inherent to its consciousness, and a direct product of its natural biological processes.



That is not the self as it is commonly conceived. People conceive of themselves as having unique traits - a personality. They identify experiences and actions with themselves. It is true in a more metaphysical sense that the true self is consciousness, but this is not what people normally understand themselves to be.

Quote:

Society is a conceptual, temporary human construct which is easily dissipated and constantly changing.



As is the self, as it is commonly understood. There is no part of you which exists independently or is unchanging.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392243 - 03/12/06 03:11 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

"...characterised by lack of empathy or conscience, poor impulse control and manipulative behaviors."

With those criteria, I think we could safely assume that a large portion of humanity is psychopathic. In fact, society itself is fueled by this type of behavior, so where do we draw the line between a disorder and a human condition?



Well, first of all, I would have to ask what you consider to be a "large portion" of humanity. I think that, in spite of what the cynics may say, most people do possess empathy, conscience, and a reasonable degree of impulse control. These are all things that make us human.




The mere fact that there are any humans that don't experience such emotions shows that they are not inherent or universal. It is our DNA that "makes us human." The traits which you describe are merely subjective behaviors.

Quote:

Society is a conceptual, temporary human construct which is easily dissipated and constantly changing.



As is the self, as it is commonly understood. There is no part of you which exists independently or is unchanging.




Obviously not, as I am merely the product of a natural process. The organism itself exists independently of others though; this is not a very controversial claim.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392253 - 03/12/06 03:15 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
The mere fact that there are any humans that don't experience such emotions shows that they are not inherent or universal.



Please list those things that all humans have which are unique to humans.

Quote:

Obviously not, as I am merely the product of a natural process. The organism itself exists independently of others though; this is not a very controversial claim.



It is if you study any of the social sciences. We are products of our environment, which includes the other organisms within it.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392272 - 03/12/06 03:22 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
The mere fact that there are any humans that don't experience such emotions shows that they are not inherent or universal.



Please list those things that all humans have which are unique to humans.




"Humans are a eukaryotic species. Each diploid cell has two sets of 23 chromosomes, each set received from one parent. There are 22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes. At present estimate, humans have approximately 20,000?25,000 genes and share 98.4% of their DNA with their closest living evolutionary relatives, the two species of chimpanzees."

I suppose the 1.6% of DNA that we don't share with chimpanzees could be considered unique.

Quote:

Obviously not, as I am merely the product of a natural process. The organism itself exists independently of others though; this is not a very controversial claim.



It is if you study any of the social sciences. We are products of our environment, which includes the other organisms within it.




"Product of," does not imply any kind of physical or spiritual union. 2 times 3 is 6, but 6 is not 2 or 3, it is its own number.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392295 - 03/12/06 03:33 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Humans are a eukaryotic species. Each diploid cell has two sets of 23 chromosomes, each set received from one parent. There are 22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes.



Those with Down syndrome have an extra chromosome. Are they not human?

Quote:

"Product of," does not imply any kind of physical or spiritual union. 2 times 3 is 6, but 6 is not 2 or 3, it is its own number.



That's not what I responding to. You said that the organism exists independently of other organisms. The fact that we are products of our environment refutes this.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392304 - 03/12/06 03:36 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

I, am the manager of my own life - not anyone else

I am a vessel to transport genetic information.
I am managed by genetics and complex biological responses to my environment.

Society is a conceptual, temporary human construct which is easily dissipated and constantly changing.

And wolfpacks are conceptual, temporary wolf constructs?

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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5392330 - 03/12/06 03:42 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Society is a conceptual, temporary human construct which is easily dissipated and constantly changing.

And wolfpacks are conceptual, temporary wolf constructs?




Yep! The wolves may temporarily band together in a way that furthers each of their own individual chances for survival, but if the wolves happen to land in a situation in which they are forced to battle it out with another ferocious group of animals in the forest and all of them are killed except for one, the wolfpack has been torn down by the forces of nature and the survivor is back where he started from.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5392342 - 03/12/06 03:47 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

How is that conceptual or a construct?

The wolfpack is a evolutionary behavioral trait. The survivor will either find another pack to join or die without perpetuating his genes.

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: The worst Enemy we face (according to Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and even Castaneda) [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392344 - 03/12/06 03:49 PM (18 years, 21 days ago)

Those with Down syndrome have an extra chromosome. Are they not human?

Nope.

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