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Offlinefivepointer
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The Biblical doctrine of Hell
    #5389902 - 03/11/06 07:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

This post is to refute certain false ?Christians? on this board who deny the doctrine of hell.

Hell is an eternal place of conscious torment.
The Bible warns of the eternity and permanence of hell.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Rev. 14:11: The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night

Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Jude 1:6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

2 Pet 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


Luke 16, describes a horrific picture of hell:

22 ... the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father?s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.


Jesus Christ says in Mark 9:43-48, (also Matt 18:8)

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mat 18:9
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Jesus makes the statement that hell is so horrible that a person should cut off their own hand or foot or pluck out their own eye if it would keep them out of hell. This is how serious it is, and how horrible it is.


Wailing and gnashing of teeth are described in many verses:
Mt 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Lu 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of His people and came under the wrath of God for them. To be under the wrath of God is described as being in the HEART OF THE EARTH or the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH. The heart and lower parts of the earth are molten rock and sulphurous compounds. Jesus spoke in parables so these descriptions may be parabolic in nature, but whether it is literal or parable it is a place of indescribable suffering and is never ending.

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale?s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Ephesians 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth


The devils cried out to Jesus, even they know they will be tormented in due time.

Mt 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


Those who deny this plain teaching are calling Jesus a deceived man or a liar.
Denial of this doctrine is blasphemy of the person and work of Jesus Christ.


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Offlinelysergicide
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5390009 - 03/11/06 08:24 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I think that "hell" is a mental state of mind, and not the physical realm where inpure souls are damned to after death as depicted in Christianity. I think that "hell" is a good representation of how inpurity (or sin) can lead you to a life full of sorrow & tormentation. People should always try to be good people- to themselves and to one another to try and guide themselves away from such a road. Speak, think, and act with clear and pure thoughts in mind, otherwise your lust, your greed, your selfishness and hate will all come back to bite you in the ass.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5390363 - 03/11/06 10:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I don't have time to explain all those versus right now, but don't worry, I will in time. Maybe I'll do one a day, maybe not. I'll just address a bit for now.

First of all, I'm not calling Jesus a liar, I'm saying that you don't understand the things Jesus said. Jesus said to test his words to see if they are true, so we'll do just that.

EXAMPLE 1:
Quote:

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale?s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.



He was buried in a tomb for 3 day, what else do you think "in the heart of the earth" means? It's akin to when Jesus said "Elijah was to come before Jesus and restore all things" - but Elijah was really John the baptist, "if you can accept it."

"nailed to a tree" - means, the cross
"Elijah must come first" - means, John the baptist
"three days in the heart of the earth" - means, three days in a tomb

Have you learnt the type of mistake you're making?

EXAMPLE 2:
Quote:

Luke 16, describes a horrific picture of hell:

22 ... the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father?s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.




So you emphasize "place of torment" as your proof that this verse is talking about everlasting hell? You'll need to explain that. Now to use this parable*(see bottom of post) as evidence for an afterlife of hell, this needs to be a literal parable (which is an oxymoron), so that means

1. heaven is literally in Abraham's bosom. What is Abraham in then? How big is Abraham's bosom? Is there tv in his bosom?

2. we can see hell from heaven, and we can talk to people in this hell from heaven, yet there is a great gulf fixed there - yet the rich man didn't know this before he asked Abraham to send him relief. (BTW, Can people in Abraham's bosom see hell, or is it just Abraham, who is the only one outside of his own bosom?)

3. the rich man and Lazarus are real characters. If that's so, then why is the rich man's name "the rich man?"

4. "Even the dogs came and licked his sores." That line is part of the same parable, but wasn't included in your selection. Why would this man have allowed the dogs to lick his sores, and why would it be included as relevant to Jesus' message? Maybe because Jesus was trying to make him sound as pitiful as possible to make a great contract between the characters.

5. "The rich man" and Lazarus must have been good pals or something, or why else would "the rich man" specifically ask for Lazarus to dip his finger into water and cool his tongue? Why would "the rich man" have thought that such a thing could ease his suffering anyways in a "lake of unending fire," wouldn't the water have evaporated before it had gotten to him anyway?


things to note: The actual word written is Hades, not hell. Hades is a Greek mythology term, used to describe both the location of the dead, and the god of the dead. Why would Jesus use another religion's version of the afterlife? Was he maybe just trying to get a point across? hrmmm...


Now, here is what I claim the parable to be saying, which is what it represents what taken as a parable...

The people in Abraham's bosom represent those who live life according to Abraham's example - sons of Abraham. As Abraham lived well and prospered so do those who live his example, being spiritually full. The rich man did not live unselfishly, and so was separate from spiritual peace, and what really mattered. That part about how he could not send Lazarus to warn his brothers about the dangers of this way of living illustrates that you cannot be forced into living a right life, but that you must discipline yourself to live that life, and endure the results that your choices bring you.



Interesting Hell fact for the day: King David writes "Oh Lord, You brough me up from Sheol (Sheol is one of the words Hell replaces in contemporary bibles) Psalm 30:3"
David writes this while still alive, not having yet died, not even once!! How is this possible?!?!! What could it mean?


So now make your decision, fivepointer. Are you going to accept a teaching of fear, or a teaching of freedom?


"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."


from *: "he spoke to them in parables, he did not say anything to them without using a parable"
Parable means a short story acting as a metaphor to express a truth


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5390510 - 03/12/06 12:00 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Well said Disco Cat. And, of course, the obvious mythic flavor of Biblical writ must be reiterated. The assumption that Biblical characters are historical characters is, well, just childish, especially when those who maintain Biblical historicity claim that only their religious stories are historical while everyone else's is mythological or mere fabrication. This powerful device of Literalist Christianity - to maintain that the mythic became historical - took me in as well for many of my adult years. It is the big LIE of Christianity, which paradoxically claims that every religion except Literalist Christianity is a LIE. And yet, such humans, having so perversely taken scriptures literally, have perpetrated unmentionable horrors on other human beings. Better to burn a living man, woman or child to death at the stake - and in so doing 'save' their soul - than to let them burn in metaphysical fire for Eternity!!!

There is nothing that I can evoke in history - not even genocide for 'ethnic cleansing' by Nazis and others - that beats the psychopathology in this type of thinking. The understanding of 'soul' is so puerile as to to be laughable if there wasn't so much horror behind it. The meglomania of the Roman emperors somehow got translated, and dispersed into Literalist Christian mentality, and for God's sake, something better change soon in humanity - in Christian and in Muslim. There is no love in Fundamentalists of either faith. They themselves are the damnation they project onto each other and those who won't take up sides in their demonic war.

Shalom. Salaam. Shanti. Pax. Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5390587 - 03/12/06 12:40 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5390745 - 03/12/06 02:05 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I personally do think that most characters in the bible are historical, Job aside, and I have no problems with that. It inspires dreams of grandeur in me, and I want to hurl down fire from the sky one day too :evil: (in a good way!). But religion misunderstands seemingly every single word these teachers say. In the end they aren't getting all mystically wacky with their teachings, they're actually extremely down to earth - but playing off the concepts of the time, albeit tongue in cheek. You can see that the people in those days understood that, and that's what irked the religious leaders then, just like today.

The point of these prohpet guys is to encourage people to commit to knowing truth themselves, the messengers were just that. Besides, Jesus declared "I am the truth,"  so knowing the truth is the same as knowing both, but it doesn't just as simply work the other way around - as exampled in this thread's first post.


Edited by Disco Cat (03/12/06 02:21 AM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5390792 - 03/12/06 02:41 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Disco Cat wrote:
"three days in the heart of the earth" - means, three days in a tomb

"three days in the heart of the earth" - is parabolic language for being under the wrath of God during the atonement. I did mention in my post that parabolic language is used in scripture. Scripture has many levels of meaning in types and pictures and parables. This doesn't change the essential meaning that hell is a place of eternal conscious torment.


That part about how he could not send Lazarus to warn his brothers about the dangers of this way of living illustrates that you cannot be forced into living a right life, but that you must discipline yourself to live that life, and endure the results that your choices bring you.

Luke 16 is not talking about temporal results in this life, of how you live in this current physical life and the results it brings.
The rich man had no problems at all in his physical life, and was not bothered spiritually while he was alive. Only after he died and was cast into hell did he have problems.

Even if you use "Hades" instead of "hell" you still have to deal with:

..I am tormented in this flame.
...but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
....lest they also come into this place of torment.


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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5390803 - 03/12/06 02:50 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The assumption that Biblical characters are historical characters is, well, just childish, especially when those who maintain Biblical historicity claim that only their religious stories are historical while everyone else's is mythological or mere fabrication.



Um...but many(if not most) Biblical characters are historical. Are you saying that David, Solomon, Herod, Paul of Tarsus, or John the Baptist are all purely mythological?


--------------------


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5390813 - 03/12/06 02:59 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Markos, you are off topic. No one is discussing how the antichristian Roman Catholic church burned people at the stake or genocide. The reason why you bring this up is to paint those that do not agree with you. Where is the love Marcos?


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5390842 - 03/12/06 03:18 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You have no choice but to use the word Hades, because that's what is written. Hell is a word that didn't exist then.

The rich man's 'torment' was already dealt with as his spiritual state. Jesus said "The kingdom of God is within you," therefore the pit of sheol is likewise within you. The rich man of this story lives in physical luxury, but his spiritual state is Hades.

Maybe you just need to experience these states before you can understand that they're meant for in this world.

And the "wrath of God during atonement" is not synonymous with "3 days in the heart of the earth," bible study's got that one wrong. Being buried in a tomb for 3 days, however, is. The "Wrath of God" is what put Jesus "three days into the earth," not what being there is.


Life is eternal, no doubt, but death cannot be, because that is contrary to what death is. It is the teardown of existence, the absence of anything tangible. It is a dimishment, and every dimishment has an end. Death is synonymous with loss. If there is a consciousness to experience loss then that consciousness is life. If there is life then there is God, and if there is God then anything is still possible.

The bible never suggests that God is a separate being from us, rather that God simply is. Jesus, as the voice of God, says "I am the life," therefore each and every one of us who lives can not be anything but part of God. God desires only life, and with God all things are possible. Do you not see there is no room left for anyone's complete spiritual destruction?
Jesus set an example, but he never claimed to be more than anyone else. He spoke using the term "Son of Man" whenever he said something to do with exclusivity, but why use the term "Son of Man," what does it mean, and who is, and who isn't a "Son of Man?" Perhaps whenever he decribes the "Son of Man" he is describing more than just himself, hmmm?


Edited by Disco Cat (03/12/06 03:25 AM)


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5390851 - 03/12/06 03:22 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Come on, people, let's wrap this up here. Fivepointer returns from the mountain every few months with some assemblage of Biblical quotes and it all goes a lot smoother if you just let him get it over with and move on. There is no point in attempting to use logic, reason, and thinking in order to change viewpoints in this, not even for the impressionable youth.




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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5391061 - 03/12/06 05:52 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

:lol:

Biblical quotes do not pertain to anything evidenced in reality. Employing them as though they are some form of proof, even of the concepts they relate to, accomplishes nothing.

The phonebook is equally valid as the Word Of God, and it doesn't even have to proclaim itself as being The Word Of God?. Anyone who truly believes in God would instantly recognize that such source is The Word Of God?, thus, the fact that the Bible's only verification that it is The Word Of God? is that it proclaims it to be true demonstrates that it cannot be accepted as The Word Of God? by faith alone.

Thus, anyone who utilizes The Bible as The Word Of God? is weak of faith. Those who utilize The Phone Book As The Official Directory Of God's Word are truly faithful and blessed. Not only that - they can also use the information contained within it to actually benefit themselves. The Phone Book As The Official Directory Of God's Word is the only source of The Word Of God? that matters.

Imagine that - The Word Of God? that is actually useful and applicable in our lives, and scientifically validated (the number you dialed WAS the pizza guy's delivery service :shocked:). I propose that we burn The Bible and canonize each and every phone book as The Word Of God?. :wink:

Not only that, but the transition of which book is The Word Of God? will not make the Gideons' task any more difficult, as every hotel room in the world already has a phone book in it as well. :smirk: THAT should have been your FIRST clue. :tongue:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5391123 - 03/12/06 07:13 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hehe, even if the words in the bible were twisted, misused, malformed, misinterpreted and malintended by many (re-)writers of the text, I propose not to burn ANY book.
I think, some days we will be able to filter out all those human 'interpretations' and wickednesses that tainted that formerly prescious book, what will share light on the human psychology (of that time) and perhaps let the prescious gem of divine truth araise out of the dirt, again.

Even the phone book of New Orleans of 1930 has valuable information in it.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5391138 - 03/12/06 07:43 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

fireworks_god writes:
Biblical quotes do not pertain to anything evidenced in reality.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Satan quotes scripture:
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus answers with scripture:
Mt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Jesus quotes from scripture many times showing that it is indeed the Word of God.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5391147 - 03/12/06 08:08 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
I propose not to burn ANY book.




Certainly. :grin:

Quote:


I think, some days we will be able to filter out all those human 'interpretations' and wickednesses that tainted that formerly prescious book




A. One would have to obtain the original writing.

B. One would need to be capable of understanding the language within the context of those who spoke only that language.

That said, it isn't as if The Bible was a uniform book. Numerous writings from a great variety of times and places. :grin:

Quote:


Even the phone book of New Orleans of 1930 has valuable information in it.




But yet, since it did not contain how to prevent the city from being flooded, that information was only half-knowledge, eh? :tongue:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391153 - 03/12/06 08:16 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

fivey: But one thing you have to be sure of: Words have to be written by humans, so they always are in danger to be personally and subjectively influenced by author.

The only Holy Book, which needs no writings by humans is nature itself (as seen by every Shaman or Druid or Native 'Spiritist').


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5391154 - 03/12/06 08:17 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Jesus quotes from scripture many times showing that it is indeed the Word of God.




Scripture refers to more scripture several times to indicate that scripture is The Word Of God?. :lol:

Positively fallacious; fallaciously outrageous, unfortunately contagious! :smirk:

Seriously, the fact that a book states that it is true does not confirm that the book is true. Such a realization is quite elementary. To become ensnared within such a basic loop is evident of... well, you know... :wink: 

Quote:



Insane Man At Bus Stop: I am the reincarnation of Alexander The Great!

Innocent Bystander: How do you know that?

Insane Man At Bus Stop: Because I proclaim it to be true!

Innocent Bystander: I hereby disengage my rational thought processes and will follow you as you conquer the world once more, and I thus adopt the name Alexandria in your honor.




:smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5391163 - 03/12/06 08:28 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
I think, some days we will be able to filter out all those human 'interpretations' and wickednesses that tainted that formerly prescious book




A. One would have to obtain the original writing.

B. One would need to be capable of understanding the language within the context of those who spoke only that language.




Not necessarily. If one understands what leaded people to the interpretations they made, one could 'filter' them out of the text to prevail the 'true' word, which is intended.
The other way round: If ?we know more of God (from other sources), then we are more able to detect the human derivations in the bible, too and mark them as those, getting them out, knowing about them :wink:

Quote:

That said, it isn't as if The Bible was a uniform book. Numerous writings from a great variety of times and places. :grin:



And persons...yes, right :wink: And all about the same concept :grin:

Quote:

Quote:


Even the phone book of New Orleans of 1930 has valuable information in it.




But yet, since it did not contain how to prevent the city from being flooded, that information was only half-knowledge, eh? :tongue:




I didn't think of that, but the new book surely has something inside, which could have made the flood preventable or at least less damaging in its effects (as long as the telephone-network was still working, of course), like local engineers, hospitals, ambulance...
Perhaps in the old book (of1930), we would find much more active engineers, who were concerned with the problem of the city-flooding, so we would have to wonder and recognize, why they ceased concerning it as dangerous...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391189 - 03/12/06 09:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

If Scripture is just the words of men, then how do you explain the fact that all the OT prophesy was EXACTLY fulfilled?

I found below from another site, I have not had time to go through each verse, but just by looking it seems accurate.

SUBJECT OT Prophecy NT Fulfillment
As the Son of God Ps 2:7 Lu 1:32,35
As the seed of the woman Ge 3:15 Ga 4:4
As the seed of Abraham Ge 17:7 22:18 Ga 3:16
As the seed of Isaac Ge 21:12 Heb 11:17-19
As the seed of David Ps 132:11 Jer 23:5 Ac 13:23 Ro 1:3
His coming at a set time Ge 49:10 Da 9:24,25 Lu 2:1
His being born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22,23 Lu 2:7
His being called Immanuel Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22,23
His being born in Bethlehem of Judea Mic 5:2 Mt 2:1 Lu 2:4-6
Great persons coming to adore him Ps 72:10 Mt 2:1-11
The slaying of the children of BethlehemJer 31:15 Mt 2:16-18
His being called out of Egypt Ho 11:1 Mt 2:15
His being preceded by John the Baptist Isa 40:3 Mal 3:1 Mt 3:1,3 Lu 1:17
His being anointed with the Spirit Ps 45:7 Isa 11:2 61:1 Mt 3:16 Joh 3:34 Ac 10:38
His being a Prophet like to Moses De 18:15-18 Ac 3:20-22
His being a Priest like Melchizedek Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5,6
His entering on his public ministry Isa 61:1,2 Lu 4:16-21,43
His ministry commencing in Galilee Isa 9:1,2 Mt 4:12-16,23
His entering publicly into Jerusalem Zec 9:9 Mt 21:1-5
His coming into the temple Hag 2:7,9 Mal 3:1 Mt 21:12 Lu 2:27-32 Joh 2:13-16
His poverty Isa 53:2 Mr 6:3 Lu 9:58
His meekness and want of ostentatious Isa 42:2 Mt 12:15,16,19
His tenderness and compassion Isa 40:11 42:3 Mt 12:15,20 Heb 4:15
His being without guile Isa 53:9 1Pe 2:22
His zeal Ps 69:9 Joh 2:17
His preaching by parables Ps 78:2 Mt 13:34,35
His working miracles Isa 35:5,6 Mt 11:4-6 Joh 11:47
His bearing reproach Ps 22:6 69:7,9,20 Ro 15:3
His being rejected by his brethren Ps 69:8 Isa 63:3 Joh 1:11 7:3
His being a stumbling stone to the Jews Isa 8:14 Ro 9:32 1Pe 2:8
His being hated by the Jews Ps 69:4 Isa 49:7 Joh 15:24,25
His being rejected by the Jewish rulers Ps 118:22 Mt 21:42 Joh 7:48
Jews and Gentiles combine against Him Ps 2:1,2 Lu 23:12 Ac 4:27
His being betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 55:12-14 Joh 13:18,21
His disciples forsaking him Zec 13:7 Mt 26:31,56
His being sold for thirty pieces silver Zec 11:12 Mt 26:15
His price given for the potter's field Zec 11:13 Mt 27:7
The intensity of his sufferings Ps 22:14,15 Lu 22:42,44
His sufferings being for others Isa 53:4-6,12 Da 9:26 Mt 20:28
His patience and silence while sufferingIsa 53:7 Mt 26:63 27:12-14
His being smitten on the cheek Mic 5:1 Mt 27:30
His visage being marred Isa 52:14 53:3 Joh 19:5
His being spit on and scourged Isa 50:6 Mr 14:65 Joh 19:1
His hands and feet nailed to the cross Ps 22:16 Joh 19:18 20:25
His being forsaken by God Ps 22:1 Mt 27:46
His being mocked Ps 22:7,8 Mt 27:39-44
Gall and vinegar given him to drink Ps 69:21 Mt 27:34
His garments parted, lots for vesture Ps 22:18 Mt 27:35
Being numbered with the transgressors Isa 53:12 Mr 15:28
His intercession for His murderers Isa 53:12 Lu 23:34
His Death Isa 53:12 Mt 27:50
That a bone of him should not be broken Ex 12:46 Ps 34:20 Joh 19:33,36
His being pierced Zec 12:10 Joh 19:34,37
His being buried with the rich Isa 53:9 Mt 27:57-60
His flesh not seeing corruption Ps 16:10 Ac 2:31
His resurrection Ps 16:10 Isa 26:19 Lu 24:6,31,34
His ascension Ps 68:18 Lu 24:51 Ac 1:9
His sitting on the right hand of God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3
Exercising the priestly office in heavenZec 6:13 Ro 8:34
Chief corner-stone of the Church Isa 28:16 1Pe 2:6,7
His being King in Zion Ps 2:6 Lu 1:32 Joh 18:33-37
The conversion of the Gentiles to him Isa 11:10 42:1 Mt 1:17,21 Joh 10:16 Ac 10:45,47
His righteous government Ps 45:6,7 Joh 5:30 Re 19:11
His universal dominion Ps 72:8 Da 7:14 Php 2:9,11
The perpetuity of his kingdom Isa 9:7 Da 7:14 Lu 1:32,33


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391297 - 03/12/06 10:35 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ah cool, I waited for such a collection for some time, thanks ! :wink:
But I more have to disappoint you, that most of these parallels did have enough time to form up some kind of self fulfilling prophecy. There were many 'messiahs' out there who had the time to form up the situation and the context and the behaviors for finally letting one coming up, who gets very near to the predictions (but even those were 'corrected' afterwards).
Let's start the old 'battle of the prophets' again, and the one who will be closest to truth will be given the ancient god's 'crown' ?
No, it is essential to compare concepts with other religions of spiritual 'knowledge', to let everyone reach that goal.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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