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ohmatic
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Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 6,742
Loc: europe
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why does degeneration happen ?
#5389545 - 03/11/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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see, this thought has been on my mind for some time now.
its a commonly know fact that one shouldnt do like 3 or more generations of follow up grain to grain transfers as it is said that degeneration will take place.
i now wonder, why that actually can be the fact ?
why does the mycelium happen to get "errors" after consequent g2gs ? any scientific data to this ? peace ohm
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MONOTUB tek HEATBOMB tek RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !
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lasagna
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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: ohmatic]
#5389581 - 03/11/06 03:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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good question...bump
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Snaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land


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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: ohmatic]
#5389594 - 03/11/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well everything get old and dies.......a very simplistic answer I know.
But here are a few description....
a lowering of effective power, vitality, or essential quality to an enfeebled and worsened kind or state
and or
having declined (as in nature, character, structure, or function) from an ancestral or former state
and or
to decline from a condition or from the standards of a species, race, or breed
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Atheist Chat
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Jaeger
Dreamer
Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 960
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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5389619 - 03/11/06 04:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Evolution is the proof  Mutations will occur especially with the large rate that the myc is producing cells. More g2g's creates tons more cell division, thus more room for errors to propagate and present themselves. So each generation, you stand a larger chance of using mutated genetics, passing these genetics, and further mutating the culture.
That is my understanding anyways.
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cappa
Nerd
Registered: 02/12/06
Posts: 854
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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: ohmatic]
#5389628 - 03/11/06 04:08 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Okay this is what I understand from what I have read.
When you innoc. a jar or LC you end up with many 'families' of myc. I think that's where ppl get confused. It's a contiguous network, but of many families helping each other, supplying nutrients to each other based on their own genetic ability to get it.
Each 'family' has different genetic traits and as a result they have more or less tolerance to their environmental factrors, etc.
When you do G2G you are usually taking a 'sample'. This sample will have fewer numbers of unique 'families' within it. Eventually, moving from one G2G result to the next you will have very few 'families' doing their business in your jars. The available genetic information becomes limited aka 'inbread'. This leads to the myc only growing in that one optimum condition, and far less resistance to changes in their environment.
Since we rarely create the EXACT same environement from grow to grow, the shrooms mutate due to innability to adapt to environmental changes. From what I 'think I understand' you can induce similar mutations by dramatically changing their environment. Like substantial changes in humidity, temp, light, etc. can give you mutants.
On a side note: Intentional in-breading is what is done to force genetic traits into the genetic information. AKA(pun intended) specific breeds of dogs and livestock we're in-bread and 'inter-bread) to increase the chances of the desired genetic traits.
Ya and what he said!
-------------------- Their are 10 types of people. Those that understand binary, and those who don't. ~Cappa.
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tonyperez420
Shaman Rasta

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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: cappa]
#5389793 - 03/11/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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its just a thought but....
can it be possible with G2G transfer that a mutation will occur to make the shroom more potent or maybe grow more prolificly?
through evolotion some mutations turn out for an advantage
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RogerRabbit
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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: tonyperez420]
#5389811 - 03/11/06 05:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Any living organism can only do a certain number of cell divisions before losing vitality. The figure of three g2g is a bit limited, and I've gone beyond that figure lots of times. I have noticed however, that after several transfers(not generations, btw) the culture is less aggressive and more prone to contaminants. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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agar
old hand


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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: ohmatic]
#5389814 - 03/11/06 05:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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It is primarily an AGE thing.
G1 through 4, Young, healthy, virile & kicking ass.
G5 & over, elderly, feeble, sickly & Alzheimer's setting in.
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fatoftheman
Stranger
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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: agar]
#5389847 - 03/11/06 05:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Cappa, it seems like you are talking about G2Ging reducing the number of separate substrains in a grow, but that can't really result in degeneration, as clones and isolates (a single substrain) are the most effective/productive grows... maybe I am misinterpreting you.
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ohmatic
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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: fatoftheman]
#5389851 - 03/11/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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good input - still, is there scientific data on this ?
i am sure research was conducted as those questions certainly are of importance for commercial mushroom farms. peaec ohm
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MONOTUB tek HEATBOMB tek RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !
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cappa
Nerd
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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: ohmatic]
#5389988 - 03/11/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Fat, that was my interpretation of what I have read, nothing more. I am not a professional. On retrospect, I believe I am mixing two different issues. One being the same exact mycellium colonies, but directly extending them to new media, and the other being *new* colonies of the same exact genetic 'family', via cloning, or some other means.
I will not argue with RR or Agar, they are far more experienced than me. They are basically agreeing with each other, just in a different manner, so we best pay attention. Notice that RR is specifically speaking to transfer of the same families/colonies vs the next generation of families/colonies.
It is however, a fact that everytime you take a smaller sample than the whole, you are reducing the the amount of genetic information available. The results of doing this? Well I have a few more textbooks and a few decades of experimentation to get through before I can comment on that.
The real solution: Mature a tray of G1 and print it. Make an LC and put it in your incubator. It will be ready for you before G3. You lose nothing but potential mutants and it won't even slow you down.
-------------------- Their are 10 types of people. Those that understand binary, and those who don't. ~Cappa.
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hyphae
born to grow


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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: ohmatic]
#5390117 - 03/11/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's called oxydation it's what kills everything eventually.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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ALHOFF177A17
DoWn RU?

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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: ohmatic]
#5390499 - 03/11/06 09:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I wish I had my bio book for exact info, but... Every time a eucaryotic cell reproduces it goes through a cycle: Lets start with division, then growth, then all the genetic material replicates, then the cell goes through a kind of check phase to ensure the DNA replicated properly, then it divides. After many divisions it is possible that the transcriptase process may develop errors(mutations). Since the cell is in essence checking itself it is possible for a mutated cell to go ahead and divide rather than die like it should. eg. Cancer, evolution, stem cell propogation into different tissues. The latter being a ideal condition for a eucaryotic cell.
Read this: http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/mcclean/plsc431/cellcycle/cellcycl1.htm and this: All of it!!! http://www.biology.arizona.edu/CELL_BIO/cell_bio.html JK!
-------------------- www.DoWnClothing.COM
Edited by ALHOFF177A17 (03/11/06 10:00 PM)
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mogur
regnartS

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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: ALHOFF177A17]
#5390856 - 03/12/06 01:24 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Strain degeneration is simply aging. If you want to get fancy, it's called organismal senescence. In G2G, there is no sexual reproduction, the exact same mycelium is continuing to grow without genetic recombination. Although this type of propagation affects the diversity of the gene pool, it is not the immediate reason for the loss in vigor of a particular mycelium mass. That is the responsibility of the genetic blueprint inherited from its two parents.
The difference in this type of cloning, versus creating animal clones, is that a clone of Dolly the sheep is starting from an embryo, with the full 'disease of life' ahead of her. A mushroom clone simply continues from where it left off, bringing any aging experience along with it.
That brings us to the question of how we age, I mean, how mushrooms age. It is a very well studied subject, one that if we had the exact answers, we would have the secret to life itself!!! [Excuse the Rocky Horror reference.] But most biologists believe that genetics determines the rate of senescence. Early onset diseases, and any processes that disfavor vigor during the early, reproductive stage are heavily selected against. And there is little selective pressure against deleterious consequences that occur after the reproductive stage. An example offered by biologist George C. Williams is the selection for calcium bone deposition that favors strong bones in young reproductive individuals, but which also causes hardening of the arteries in old farts.
The remaining question is why we age, er, mushrooms age. Part of that answer is the selective genetic pressure just mentioned that favors the young. Peter Medawar postulates the "Mutation Accumulation" theory of aging, reasoning that even given an immortal, ever-reproductive population, it will naturally favor youth. Predation, disease, and accidents will affect those that have been exposed to them the longest. Genetic selection will then favor the largest resulting portion of the population, the young, since there are more of them contributing to the gene pool. One prediction of his view that is borne out by the evidence is that species with the great predation risk would evolve the shortest lifespans.
Perhaps a more pertinent analogy of mushroom senescence is the decision of plant species to adopt a perennial or an annual genetic mechanism of survival. They must choose to either put energy into surviving the winter, or shoot their wad in the fall by producing seeds capable of winter dormancy. The advantage to the entire plant surviving the winter is that they are off and running in the spring without the hassle of germination. You would expect the occurence of these two radically different survival mechanisms to be far apart genetically, but often are exhibited by closely related species. This must be a rather easy genetic switch to throw.
So the question of how and why mushrooms lose vitality, is not completely understood, but we are beginning to grok a few clues.
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ohmatic
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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: cappa]
#5391038 - 03/12/06 03:37 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
cappa said: The real solution: Mature a tray of G1 and print it. Make an LC and put it in your incubator. It will be ready for you before G3. You lose nothing but potential mutants and it won't even slow you down.
i never mentioned working with spores anyway.
thanks for the input guys  peace ohm
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MONOTUB tek HEATBOMB tek RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !
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Tsinaglou
learning...

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Loc: midwest
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Re: why does degeneration happen ? [Re: ohmatic]
#5391177 - 03/12/06 06:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Somewhere, unfortunately i don't remember where, I recently read that the asian growers extended the functional life of their strains by re-cloning from fruits instead of always using petri plates or g2g. Why this might make a difference I'm not sure. It should be an easy enough experiment test though.
Someone at Fungi Perfecti told me that mushroom clones don't seem to senesce in the wild. He could go back to the same colony year after year and re-isolate the same vigorous strain even though it lost vigour over time in cultivation.
He also said he re-invigourates important strains by putting them into liquid culture with stirring and then introducing spores of the same species. Apparently most fungi have the ability to selectively "pirate" the genetics of a smaller/weaker colony of the same species. He said the result would be nearly the same as the original desirable strain.
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