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tokey666
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Registered: 08/05/05
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pinset correlation between substrate depth?
#5387531 - 03/10/06 10:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ya know, I see recommendations of substrate depths of 2 to 3 inches all the time (even in the FAQ's frequently). But when I look at pictures, I don't see that deep of substrate. And there are lots of people out there achieving excellent pinsets. I have tried on various occasions with different factors and have still yet to achieve a pleasing pinset.
SO, basically, I am thinking about one variable at a time. My substrate depths have always been about 1 inch. Problem?
Seriously, 3 inches if VERY thick. Look at it on a ruler.
Thanks!
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Chrissss
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
#5387553 - 03/10/06 10:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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well shit im doing a 4 inch right now.
-------------------- http://www.laserspectacular.com/index.htm This is a laser show with pink floyd music. If it comes near you GO! it is amazing
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Bamaman
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Chrissss]
#5387568 - 03/10/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i may be wrong but I don't think there is a correlation.
deeper substrate makes taller and fatter shrooms....not better pinsets.
-------------------- Diabetes causes hamsters.
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hyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
#5387617 - 03/10/06 10:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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No correlation at all look at my pinning strategy notice that tray full of fruits it consisted of two 1/2pts. at a depth of less than an inch! I'd say closer to 3/4" if I remember right, great pinsets are in a good strategy which includes optimum parameters and timing and I'll say it again peat based casings truely rock when it comes to easy massive pinsets CONSISTANTLY.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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tokey666
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae] 1
#5388433 - 03/11/06 07:45 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Awesome. My last casing was peat based, but it kept drying out, which I attribute to the crappy pinset.
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RemainRandom50
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
#5388447 - 03/11/06 07:54 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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yea with a casing layer your gonna get a more even pinset. they say without one or thinner is where you get fatter more uneven pinset of shrooms.
-------------------- At times I get consumed by my everyday life and will leave the Shroomery. Yet, every time drugs come falling into my life for fun.....I always think about the Shroomery and then I'm back!
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hyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
#5388506 - 03/11/06 08:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
tokey666 said: Awesome. My last casing was peat based, but it kept drying out, which I attribute to the crappy pinset.
50/50+ with proper RH levels holds water quite nicely, also theres an art to pinning I know you,ve read my pinning strategy now just follow it. Bring that casings moisture content up to near saturation and keep it there a least twice a day until your ready to set your pins which is usually right after the myc is evenly popping thru the suface maybe patching will be necessary to accomplish this and when patching make sure you mist those spots as well. Now when you initiate pinning and you want your RH high as in 95-98% because this is where pins thrive just like nature your casing will be at optimal moisture capacity and should stay that way by itself throughout the pinning stage (remember 95-98% RH) within no time your casings will consistantly explode with pins providing you have a good fruiting substrain. Again GL
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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hyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
#5388512 - 03/11/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I see you have your trays off the perlite! Good man! Follow my advice and your consistancy will amaze you.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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Blue Helix
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
#5388627 - 03/11/06 09:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Substrate depth of 3" is only important on a non-nutritious or airy substrate like straw maybe. For manure or manure/grain especially, you can go with as little as 1.5" and have great results. The casing on top should be about 3/4" to 1". Casing pH is important, but if you use calcium carbonate (never hydrated lime) you can't really screw up to bad.
Casings stop growing abruptly when faced with lots of fresh air. The mycelium can switch over to fruiting mode from vegetative growth well before it colonizes through the casing, which will give you a bad pin set. I have had it happen to me many, many times so I know what I am talking about. What to do?
First, work with small trays so this is manageable. You need to cover each newly-cased tray with syran wrap with a few pin holes in it. I recommend a pinhole about every four square inches. Make sure the pinhole stays open and the wrap don't close back up. Heat the pin if you have to. Let the tray stay covered in a dark place at 75F to 82F, checking each day. If your place is not at least 73F, you have to heat the air somehow. NEVER heat a tray directly in any fashion like shining a bulb on it or heating touching a heat pad directly. Always heat the air around it. When you see about a third to two thirds of the valleys covered, take the wrap off.
Before you put the tray in the fruiting chamber, you should do a light scratch. This is a delicate process where you take the overlaid valleys and, using a heat-sterilized fork, gently break up the mycelium and mix it with nearby peaks. You want to even out all growth in the casing and keep it fluffed up. This is an important step to a perfect pinset, but I wouldn't do it with species other than cubensis unless you want to just experiment with it.
During the first few days in the fruiter, you can keep breaking up overlay, but you need to leave the casing alone in terms of moving soil by day 3 or so. During this time you can mist the casing gently up to saturation via multiple daily small mistings. Don't dump the water on too fast. If you do, you run risks you don't want. Just keep misting until it well glisens and stop. Keep doing one to three times a day until it looks real moist. You can do this with an ultrasonic on a timer to turn on every couple hours for say 10 minutes too if you want to go fancy.
In the fruiter, you want conditions to be 95% to 98% RH but I like to avoid 100% RH myself because it tends to increse the chances of mold or maybe the fact you have 100% RH indicates too little air exchange (passive or active it doesn't much matter with cubes) which also increases the chances of mold. Keep ambient temps from 74F to 80F. If it gets a little hotter (say 82F), that's okay. If it gets much colder and stays colder (say 70F), that's worse in my experience.
In 7 to 10 days, you should see pins. By that time, the casing should be nearly saturated. You can discontinue misting so much or entirely. If you do mist, keep it light (and some species like Pan Cyans which I am not covering here, will totally abort with any misting).
That's it! So, let's review: mix up a pH-balanced casing featuring calcium carbonate and peat, lay the casing 3/4" to 1" deep and even, incubate the casing well covered to prevent it from breathing too much, light scratch the casing to even out the growth, fruit out the casing misting it up to saturation! It's easy!
Here are the kind of results you can expect (trays of mine):
   
Edited by Blue Helix (03/11/06 10:06 AM)
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hyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5389074 - 03/11/06 12:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Good point Blue Helix 100% humidity does not allow adequate transpiration/evaporation which is critical to good primordia formation. I do recommend a little hydrated lime whenever working with peat based casings it's affects are immediate and quite beneficial AS LONG AS YOU DON"T OVER DO IT this stuff is quite concentrated. CaCO3 works great also and makes hydrated not as necessary as when using oyster shell flour. Nice scratch-n-sniff ya got there Blue! BTW folks "near saturation" never saturation thats the difference a fine touch makes and separates the experienced from the inexperienced. I know thats what you meant to say Blue Helix.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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TheLegend
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae]
#5389190 - 03/11/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Blue helix with such a good pinset like that i doubt you get a second flush? i doubt you need one either but still id say the substrate shrinks by about 60% Do you just chuck it or do you dunk them and try again cause id say you get every bit of nutrient out of it in the first flush
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Blue Helix
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
#5389239 - 03/11/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah, near saturation. If you are going to use hydrated lime, my pH probe has shown that one should never use over 1/4 teaspoon per cup. I recommend between 1/8th to 1/4 teaspoon per cup. About a level tablespoon per 15 cups (rather than the 1.2 cups recommended by Ryche Hawke) is plenty. That's give you abou a 10 pH right after mix up, but it'll drop to the 8s or upper 7s in a week.
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hyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5389671 - 03/11/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said: Yeah, near saturation. If you are going to use hydrated lime, my pH probe has shown that one should never use over 1/4 teaspoon per cup. I recommend between 1/8th to 1/4 teaspoon per cup. About a level tablespoon per 15 cups (rather than the 1.2 cups recommended by Ryche Hawke) is plenty. That's give you about a 10 pH right after mix up, but it'll drop to the 8s or upper 7s in a week.
I usually add 1tsp. hydrated and 1-2tbs. long term buffer per quart of mix so I guess I was still on the acidic side a bit maybe. I'm surprised that I was able to get 7-8 flushes from quite a few! I've never done a pH check I've just went with what worked for me, good to know I was on the conservative side!
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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Blue Helix
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae]
#5389792 - 03/11/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
hyphae said: I usually add 1tsp. hydrated and 1-2tbs. long term buffer per quart of mix so I guess I was still on the acidic side a bit maybe. I'm surprised that I was able to get 7-8 flushes from quite a few! I've never done a pH check I've just went with what worked for me, good to know I was on the conservative side!
No, if you were adding it at that rate to peat alone it would be perfect and in the range I suggested. If you add 1 teaspoon per quart of peat moss and a quart is four cups, you added 1/4th teaspoon per cup basically. I suggested 1/8 to 1/4th teaspoon per cup of peat moss given the measurements I have done with my pH probe. Hydrated lime is highly basic, so if anything since you add to the MIX rather than just to the peat alone you are on the basic side, not the acidic. But keep in mind that when you add 1 cup of peat moss to 1 cup of vermiculite, you don't get 2 cups of mix. It doesn't work that way with things of unequal particle size. I bet if you really looked, you'd be very close to the range of 1/4 to 1/8 teaspoon of hydrated lime per cup of peat in your mix.
You do realize that the original 50/50 Tek suggests to add approximately 14.4 times the hydrated lime per cup than I do when I recommend 1/4 teaspoon per cup of peat? The recipe is a fraud (at least that part of it) and probably wasted hundreds of man hours in failures.
Edited by Blue Helix (03/11/06 05:19 PM)
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agar
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5389852 - 03/11/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
hyphae said: You do realize that the original 50/50 Tek suggests to add approximately 14.4 times the hydrated lime per cup than I do when I recommend 1/4 teaspoon per cup of peat? The recipe is a fraud (at least that part of it) and probably wasted hundreds of man hours in failures.
I hear you on that one. I would wager 1000's of wasted man hours, on a "shit" casing recipe, that dooms one to FAILURE.
--------------------
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hyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5389869 - 03/11/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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When measuring in volume I have always gotten equal ratios, I mean I fill a 2cup measuring cup full it's 2 cups no matter what goes in there it fills the measuring cup to the top the same with peat so I'm clueless what your referring to BTW my job requires accurately measuring by volume as well as weight that is where I believe you are confused? Anyway I was referring to peat and verm combined then adding buffers. If my reasoning/training is off please let me know so I can let our industry know! LOL just givin ya a little shit bro All I know is that I've always measure casing mixes by volume not weight at least thats the way my colleagues and I learned and has worked awesome over the years.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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tokey666
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5389888 - 03/11/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Holy crap! I forgot about this thread until now. Thanks for the help to both of you!
A few quick followups:
My casing layer is jiffy mix/verm/coir/crushed shells as recommended by agar. Its basically the 50/50 mix with a handful of coir and shells. Since coir colonizes so quickly, it "brings the myc to the top quickly." And for those who don't know, Jiffy Mix ingredients are peat, verm and lime.
Ok, basically overnight, (about a 18 hour period) my casing colonized from small splotches that weren't big enough to patch, to this....

That pic was taken minutes after I put them in the fruiting chamber.
Now from what I am reading, it seems, that because of my automated chamber, the humidity levels aren't what they should be. Should I attribute this to my problem, OR would it be my casing?
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RogerRabbit
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae]
#5389897 - 03/11/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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When using hydrated lime, it's important to let the product 'rest' after adding the lime so everything can equalize out. I do this by adding the dry hydrated lime to the dry peat. Gypsum is added at the same time and mixed in well. I use a full teaspoon of hydrated lime per cup of peat, and gypsum is added at the rate of 5% to 10% of the total peat. After bringing to the correct moisture level, moistened verm is then mixed in. When allowed to sit like this for an hour, the ph is 7.3 to 8.0 every time, which is perfect for a casing layer. (be sure to test each recipie with the brand of peat you use)
Now, that being said, pinset quality is as much a product of the genetics of the particular substrain as it is the skill of the grower, or the type of materials he uses. There's a lot we can do to screw up a good pinset, but if the strain is poor, there's not much that even the most skilled grower can do to get a decent flush. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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hyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5389927 - 03/11/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have always mixed then pasteurized so that has allowed all the ingredients to meld quite nicely. Thanks for the ratios. I definitely agree substrain has it's importance in pin count thats why when we clone we choose fruitbodies that come from clusters and not a loner guys. There are many things in this hobby that need to be taken into consideration for sure many of which can only be realize thru experience.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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Blue Helix
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae]
#5390791 - 03/12/06 12:39 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You started talking weight, not me. I was just saying that I measure 1/4 teaspoon per cup of peat moss. You add that much to the mix. So, I was trying to figure out how much you add per cup of PEAT, and the truth is I have no way of knowing that. If you measure a cup of mix out, I have no idea how much peat moss that is because I have no idea how peat and vermiculite pack together. I never measured it. Sometimes you add a cup of stuff A and a cup of stuff B and you get 1.5 cups of a mix. Sometimes you get 2 cups. Sometimes you get 1.25 cups. Hell, you could even in theory add a cup of A and a cup of B and get a cup of the mix because all of A could fit between the parts of thing B. It all depends on how the two things fit together.
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Blue Helix
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5390795 - 03/12/06 12:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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RogerRabbit, you must have peat moss that is extremely acidic then. Where I live and using the hydrated lime I have, you'd be pegged at over 10 for at least a month adding that level of hydrated lime. Per your recommendation, I tried 1 teaspoon per cup of peat once. I pasteurized the mix too, and after a week hoovering around 11, I just dumped it. You can't make generalizations about measurements with hydrated lime. You should stop doing it, and I should too. You just need a probe to use hydrated lime unless you know the EXACT brand of peat you are trying to balance and someone else has done the pH probe measurements for you. I am completely convinced that this issue about the pH and people like me and RogerRabbit and Ryche Hawke are just causing people to ruin hundreds and hundreds of casings. I wish we could just all get organized and agree that you need a pH probe to use the stuff rather than ruining pin sets. Ever notice how crappy pin sets are around here? I am sure it's partly, if not mostly, because of the pH problems people have when they use hydrated lime wrong.
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hyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5391374 - 03/12/06 09:27 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Another good point peat moss pH varies, I've personally had 100% success with my ratios with a few different brands so I feel quite safe recommending it at my concentrations but as you said who knows really where my pH actually is? Also Blue Helix I'm not here to bicker you are a knowledgeable and experienced as well as a great asset here and we all respect your thoughts you are nothing but help around here. I myself do volume never weight when talking casing mixes guys there is a big difference. That being said I have seen straight 50/50 with no buffers work many times over it has even been a tek for many many years it may only be good for a couple flushes but bottom line is it does work for some. Again I'll reiterate myc thrives in very moist conditions a casing to dry will not colonize also based out casings will also not colonize so be very cautious when using hydrated lime it doesn't take much IME to hold it over until the long term buffers kick in. BTW long term buffers will not base or acidify your casings they will only neutralize them perfectly!
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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rDr4g0n
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae]
#5391385 - 03/12/06 09:33 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i just cased with 50/50 and the yeild of my first flush was much smaller than a straigth verm case with a verm bottom layer. im not sure why, but im gonna keep experimenting
as for substrate depth, ive got some cakes taht are fruting like crap so im gonna crumble em all and mix em with a little bit of poo and put em in a terrarium. the thing is, the substrate will only be like 1.5 inches, and ill probably case like .5 inches. well see how it turns out
-------------------- i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck. My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)
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agar
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5391436 - 03/12/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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 Here is what the peat ph, I get runs.
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hyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: agar]
#5391478 - 03/12/06 10:12 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
agar said:
 Here is what the peat ph, I get runs.
LOL agar's got the runs!!!!
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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Blue Helix
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae]
#5391627 - 03/12/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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hyphae, I am not sure I understand what you are saying, but you and I are recommending about the same thing, close to 1/4th teaspoon per cup of peat moss. We agree, okay? The only difference was that you added it to the peat/vermiculite mix and I to the peat alone. That means you add a little bit more than I do. No big deal.
RogerRabbit and I, on the other hand, have vastly different results. He adds four times the amount of hydrated lime I do and measures WILDLY different pH values when he does. I mix up 1 teaspoon of hydrated lime, 1.5 tablespoon of gypsum, and 1 cup of peat, pasteurize, and measure the pH the next day, and I read a pH of about 11.3. And it stays high like that for at least a week. RogerRabbit does the exact same thing and his pH is "perfect" in the lower 7s. Now that is really amazing, and I have no explaination.
I want to make this clear: I am not doubting what RogerRabbit says. I don't doubt it works for him. What I don't know is why it does work. I also believe that what is probably happening is some combination of effects related to differences in buffering capacity of our brands of peat moss. For those of you who don't know, buffering capacity is the ability for a substance to resist changes in pH. MAYBE RogerRabit's peat moss has a much higher buffering capacity than mine. That could explain the differences. Who knows?
What I DO KNOW FOR SURE is that calcium carbonate does change pH (sorry hyphae but it does). It is used in that capacity to lime soils around the world and is used to buffer casing soils also. It is often sold as argricultural garden lime, but hydrated lime sometimes is sold under the same name so read the label. Calcium carbonate is used very often to raise the pH and buffer casing soils and is recommended exclusively in books like The Mushroom Cultivator for just that (and they don't mention hydrated lime for casing soils).
Calcium carbonate is not like hydrated lime in many respects. For one it doesn't do shit unless it's very fine. It must be almost like flour to work because it's so insoluable that it requires a lot of surface area to do anything. Oyster chips, for example, are way too big to have any pH affect. They won't do much anything other than provide a textural component to the soil. Hydrated lime, on the other hand, is relatively soluable compared to calcium carbonate and doesn't require any particular mesh size to work at 100%.
Another thing that is different is that calcium carbonate really is, for all practical purposes, totally insoluable over a pH of about 8.3. That means it cannot raise the pH of a casing above 8.3 no matter how much you add. You can add 1 cup of the finest most pure powder they sell to one cup of peat and the mix will still only have a pH of 8.3. It will never go over that. It's a SAFE liming material in the sense that you can't blow the pH out of the water like with hydrated lime. Because it is so safe and almost impossible to go overboard, I recommend it for buffering and liming casings soils with peat to raise the pH in the proper range and keep it there.
With hydrated lime the pH ceiling (what it can't go over) is about 12.5. That means that no matter how much you add, it won't raise the pH above 12.5. The bummer is that 12.5 is toxic to mycelium and most organisms. That means as a liming agent hydrated lime is not as foolproof as calcium-carbonate-based lime. It cannot be safely used unless you have a pH probe to check the results of your mix. That is why it is not recommended by any mushroom book on the planet for home cultivation BECAUSE IT IS TOO EASY TO USE TOO MUCH!
Having said that, I called mushroom farms. They DO USE hydrated lime. But guess what? They know exactly how much to add because they do have the pH probe to test their mixes. They use hydrated lime because in some locals it's relatively inexpensive compared to calcium carbonate for their farms.
Okay, that's all I am going to say about this topic. I know what I am talking about. I don't care if anyone else listens or not. I am getting tired of going over and over this material in different forums and boards. If people want to use hydrated lime without a pH probe and then want to wonder why their pin sets sucks because their casing pH is over 11, let them. I tried to explain, and that is all I can do.
Edited by Blue Helix (03/12/06 11:35 AM)
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5391721 - 03/12/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Back on topic, I see little to no correlation between substrate depth and pinset. Pinset seems much more strain or substrain related, along with the skill of the cultivator. Of course with a very thin substrate, a nice pinset will be more likely to have a lot of aborts, and a thicker substrate will be better able to support that same pinset. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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shroomr4life
Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 347
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5391925 - 03/12/06 01:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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hahaha, i totally agree with you Helix! My hats are off to all of you guys though (hyphae, agar, RogerR, Roadkill, and the many many other extrememly inteligent mycologist minds here that the shroomery); you have all obviously devoted a great deal of time and effort to this hobby and i give you much respect for that. Anyway, love readin your guyz's posts, I've learned SOOO much just listening... :-) -ShroomR
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agar
old hand


Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5391945 - 03/12/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I manage to get as even a pin-set on 1 inch substrates, as 4 inch. So, I see no correlation - either.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5392030 - 03/12/06 01:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have one final test for you. As I have said before, calcium hydroxide not stored in a water and air-proof container slowly converts to calcium carbonate when reacting with CO2 in the air. This happens faster if the air around your place it moist. That is why I store mine in a water-and-air-proof plastic bag (and I use it for my reef tank hobby, not mushrooms). Now, I take it you don't, so we have to test yours for purity. If what you have is in fact calcium hydroxide and has not all reacted with the air in storage turning it to calcium carbonate, we should expect a solution of it to have a pH of 12.5. I want you to take a pinch of the lime you have (it should only take a pinch), mix it with a glass of water, and tell me the pH. It should be 12.5.
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hyphae
born to grow


Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: agar]
#5392061 - 03/12/06 02:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Blue Helix I agree we are both use around the same. Also I never said CaCO3 didn't change pH so no offense taken I am an avid gardener so I am well aware of buffers and they're effects. I also agree CaCO3 can raise pH above 7.0 (neutral) but it takes alot more than any of us recommend. I myself use hydrated lime and long term buffers as anyone using peat based casings should. I also agree be careful when using hydrated lime if not sure of how much to add don't use it period and always let them sit overnight to meld. As I first posted in this thread there is no correlation (FACT!)
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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