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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5390795 - 03/12/06 12:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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RogerRabbit, you must have peat moss that is extremely acidic then. Where I live and using the hydrated lime I have, you'd be pegged at over 10 for at least a month adding that level of hydrated lime. Per your recommendation, I tried 1 teaspoon per cup of peat once. I pasteurized the mix too, and after a week hoovering around 11, I just dumped it. You can't make generalizations about measurements with hydrated lime. You should stop doing it, and I should too. You just need a probe to use hydrated lime unless you know the EXACT brand of peat you are trying to balance and someone else has done the pH probe measurements for you. I am completely convinced that this issue about the pH and people like me and RogerRabbit and Ryche Hawke are just causing people to ruin hundreds and hundreds of casings. I wish we could just all get organized and agree that you need a pH probe to use the stuff rather than ruining pin sets. Ever notice how crappy pin sets are around here? I am sure it's partly, if not mostly, because of the pH problems people have when they use hydrated lime wrong.
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hyphae
born to grow


Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5391374 - 03/12/06 09:27 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Another good point peat moss pH varies, I've personally had 100% success with my ratios with a few different brands so I feel quite safe recommending it at my concentrations but as you said who knows really where my pH actually is? Also Blue Helix I'm not here to bicker you are a knowledgeable and experienced as well as a great asset here and we all respect your thoughts you are nothing but help around here. I myself do volume never weight when talking casing mixes guys there is a big difference. That being said I have seen straight 50/50 with no buffers work many times over it has even been a tek for many many years it may only be good for a couple flushes but bottom line is it does work for some. Again I'll reiterate myc thrives in very moist conditions a casing to dry will not colonize also based out casings will also not colonize so be very cautious when using hydrated lime it doesn't take much IME to hold it over until the long term buffers kick in. BTW long term buffers will not base or acidify your casings they will only neutralize them perfectly!
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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rDr4g0n
Young Hand

Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 587
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae]
#5391385 - 03/12/06 09:33 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i just cased with 50/50 and the yeild of my first flush was much smaller than a straigth verm case with a verm bottom layer. im not sure why, but im gonna keep experimenting
as for substrate depth, ive got some cakes taht are fruting like crap so im gonna crumble em all and mix em with a little bit of poo and put em in a terrarium. the thing is, the substrate will only be like 1.5 inches, and ill probably case like .5 inches. well see how it turns out
-------------------- i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck. My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)
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agar
old hand


Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5391436 - 03/12/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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 Here is what the peat ph, I get runs.
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hyphae
born to grow


Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: agar]
#5391478 - 03/12/06 10:12 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
agar said:
 Here is what the peat ph, I get runs.
LOL agar's got the runs!!!!
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae]
#5391627 - 03/12/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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hyphae, I am not sure I understand what you are saying, but you and I are recommending about the same thing, close to 1/4th teaspoon per cup of peat moss. We agree, okay? The only difference was that you added it to the peat/vermiculite mix and I to the peat alone. That means you add a little bit more than I do. No big deal.
RogerRabbit and I, on the other hand, have vastly different results. He adds four times the amount of hydrated lime I do and measures WILDLY different pH values when he does. I mix up 1 teaspoon of hydrated lime, 1.5 tablespoon of gypsum, and 1 cup of peat, pasteurize, and measure the pH the next day, and I read a pH of about 11.3. And it stays high like that for at least a week. RogerRabbit does the exact same thing and his pH is "perfect" in the lower 7s. Now that is really amazing, and I have no explaination.
I want to make this clear: I am not doubting what RogerRabbit says. I don't doubt it works for him. What I don't know is why it does work. I also believe that what is probably happening is some combination of effects related to differences in buffering capacity of our brands of peat moss. For those of you who don't know, buffering capacity is the ability for a substance to resist changes in pH. MAYBE RogerRabit's peat moss has a much higher buffering capacity than mine. That could explain the differences. Who knows?
What I DO KNOW FOR SURE is that calcium carbonate does change pH (sorry hyphae but it does). It is used in that capacity to lime soils around the world and is used to buffer casing soils also. It is often sold as argricultural garden lime, but hydrated lime sometimes is sold under the same name so read the label. Calcium carbonate is used very often to raise the pH and buffer casing soils and is recommended exclusively in books like The Mushroom Cultivator for just that (and they don't mention hydrated lime for casing soils).
Calcium carbonate is not like hydrated lime in many respects. For one it doesn't do shit unless it's very fine. It must be almost like flour to work because it's so insoluable that it requires a lot of surface area to do anything. Oyster chips, for example, are way too big to have any pH affect. They won't do much anything other than provide a textural component to the soil. Hydrated lime, on the other hand, is relatively soluable compared to calcium carbonate and doesn't require any particular mesh size to work at 100%.
Another thing that is different is that calcium carbonate really is, for all practical purposes, totally insoluable over a pH of about 8.3. That means it cannot raise the pH of a casing above 8.3 no matter how much you add. You can add 1 cup of the finest most pure powder they sell to one cup of peat and the mix will still only have a pH of 8.3. It will never go over that. It's a SAFE liming material in the sense that you can't blow the pH out of the water like with hydrated lime. Because it is so safe and almost impossible to go overboard, I recommend it for buffering and liming casings soils with peat to raise the pH in the proper range and keep it there.
With hydrated lime the pH ceiling (what it can't go over) is about 12.5. That means that no matter how much you add, it won't raise the pH above 12.5. The bummer is that 12.5 is toxic to mycelium and most organisms. That means as a liming agent hydrated lime is not as foolproof as calcium-carbonate-based lime. It cannot be safely used unless you have a pH probe to check the results of your mix. That is why it is not recommended by any mushroom book on the planet for home cultivation BECAUSE IT IS TOO EASY TO USE TOO MUCH!
Having said that, I called mushroom farms. They DO USE hydrated lime. But guess what? They know exactly how much to add because they do have the pH probe to test their mixes. They use hydrated lime because in some locals it's relatively inexpensive compared to calcium carbonate for their farms.
Okay, that's all I am going to say about this topic. I know what I am talking about. I don't care if anyone else listens or not. I am getting tired of going over and over this material in different forums and boards. If people want to use hydrated lime without a pH probe and then want to wonder why their pin sets sucks because their casing pH is over 11, let them. I tried to explain, and that is all I can do.
Edited by Blue Helix (03/12/06 11:35 AM)
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
#5391721 - 03/12/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Back on topic, I see little to no correlation between substrate depth and pinset. Pinset seems much more strain or substrain related, along with the skill of the cultivator. Of course with a very thin substrate, a nice pinset will be more likely to have a lot of aborts, and a thicker substrate will be better able to support that same pinset. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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shroomr4life
Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 347
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5391925 - 03/12/06 01:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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hahaha, i totally agree with you Helix! My hats are off to all of you guys though (hyphae, agar, RogerR, Roadkill, and the many many other extrememly inteligent mycologist minds here that the shroomery); you have all obviously devoted a great deal of time and effort to this hobby and i give you much respect for that. Anyway, love readin your guyz's posts, I've learned SOOO much just listening... :-) -ShroomR
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agar
old hand


Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5391945 - 03/12/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I manage to get as even a pin-set on 1 inch substrates, as 4 inch. So, I see no correlation - either.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5392030 - 03/12/06 01:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have one final test for you. As I have said before, calcium hydroxide not stored in a water and air-proof container slowly converts to calcium carbonate when reacting with CO2 in the air. This happens faster if the air around your place it moist. That is why I store mine in a water-and-air-proof plastic bag (and I use it for my reef tank hobby, not mushrooms). Now, I take it you don't, so we have to test yours for purity. If what you have is in fact calcium hydroxide and has not all reacted with the air in storage turning it to calcium carbonate, we should expect a solution of it to have a pH of 12.5. I want you to take a pinch of the lime you have (it should only take a pinch), mix it with a glass of water, and tell me the pH. It should be 12.5.
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hyphae
born to grow


Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: agar]
#5392061 - 03/12/06 02:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Blue Helix I agree we are both use around the same. Also I never said CaCO3 didn't change pH so no offense taken I am an avid gardener so I am well aware of buffers and they're effects. I also agree CaCO3 can raise pH above 7.0 (neutral) but it takes alot more than any of us recommend. I myself use hydrated lime and long term buffers as anyone using peat based casings should. I also agree be careful when using hydrated lime if not sure of how much to add don't use it period and always let them sit overnight to meld. As I first posted in this thread there is no correlation (FACT!)
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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