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Offlinetokey666
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pinset correlation between substrate depth?
    #5387531 - 03/10/06 10:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Ya know, I see recommendations of substrate depths of 2 to 3 inches all the time (even in the FAQ's frequently). But when I look at pictures, I don't see that deep of substrate. And there are lots of people out there achieving excellent pinsets. I have tried on various occasions with different factors and have still yet to achieve a pleasing pinset.

SO, basically, I am thinking about one variable at a time. My substrate depths have always been about 1 inch.  Problem?

Seriously, 3 inches if VERY thick. Look at it on a ruler. :smile:

Thanks!


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OfflineChrissss
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
    #5387553 - 03/10/06 10:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

well shit im doing a 4 inch right now.


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OfflineBamaman
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Chrissss]
    #5387568 - 03/10/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i may be wrong but I don't think there is a correlation.

deeper substrate makes taller and fatter shrooms....not better pinsets.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
    #5387617 - 03/10/06 10:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

No correlation at all look at my pinning strategy notice that tray full of fruits it consisted of two 1/2pts. at a depth of less than an inch! I'd say closer to 3/4" if I remember right, great pinsets are in a good strategy which includes optimum parameters and timing and I'll say it again peat based casings truely rock when it comes to easy massive pinsets CONSISTANTLY.


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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae] * 1
    #5388433 - 03/11/06 07:45 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Awesome. My last casing was peat based, but it kept drying out, which I attribute to the crappy pinset.



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OfflineRemainRandom50
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
    #5388447 - 03/11/06 07:54 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

yea with a casing layer your gonna get a more even pinset. they say without one or thinner is where you get fatter more uneven pinset of shrooms.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
    #5388506 - 03/11/06 08:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

tokey666 said:
Awesome. My last casing was peat based, but it kept drying out, which I attribute to the crappy pinset.





50/50+ with proper RH levels holds water quite nicely, also theres an art to pinning I know you,ve read my pinning strategy now just follow it. Bring that casings moisture content up to near saturation and keep it there a least twice a day until your ready to set your pins which is usually right after the myc is evenly popping thru the suface maybe patching will be necessary to accomplish this and when patching make sure you mist those spots as well. Now when you initiate pinning and you want your RH high as in 95-98% because this is where pins thrive just like nature your casing will be at optimal moisture capacity and should stay that way by itself throughout the pinning stage (remember 95-98% RH) within no time your casings will consistantly explode with pins providing you have a good fruiting substrain. Again GL


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Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
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Offlinehyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
    #5388512 - 03/11/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I see you have your trays off the perlite!  :thumbup: Good man!
Follow my advice and your consistancy will amaze you. :headbanger:


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
    #5388627 - 03/11/06 09:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Substrate depth of 3" is only important on a non-nutritious or airy substrate like straw maybe. For manure or manure/grain especially, you can go with as little as 1.5" and have great results. The casing on top should be about 3/4" to 1". Casing pH is important, but if you use calcium carbonate (never hydrated lime) you can't really screw up to bad.

Casings stop growing abruptly when faced with lots of fresh air. The mycelium can switch over to fruiting mode from vegetative growth well before it colonizes through the casing, which will give you a bad pin set. I have had it happen to me many, many times so I know what I am talking about. What to do?

First, work with small trays so this is manageable. You need to cover each newly-cased tray with syran wrap with a few pin holes in it. I recommend a pinhole about every four square inches. Make sure the pinhole stays open and the wrap don't close back up. Heat the pin if you have to. Let the tray stay covered in a dark place at 75F to 82F, checking each day. If your place is not at least 73F, you have to heat the air somehow. NEVER heat a tray directly in any fashion like shining a bulb on it or heating touching a heat pad directly. Always heat the air around it. When you see about a third to two thirds of the valleys covered, take the wrap off.

Before you put the tray in the fruiting chamber, you should do a light scratch. This is a delicate process where you take the overlaid valleys and, using a heat-sterilized fork, gently break up the mycelium and mix it with nearby peaks. You want to even out all growth in the casing and keep it fluffed up. This is an important step to a perfect pinset, but I wouldn't do it with species other than cubensis unless you want to just experiment with it.

During the first few days in the fruiter, you can keep breaking up overlay, but you need to leave the casing alone in terms of moving soil by day 3 or so. During this time you can mist the casing gently up to saturation via multiple daily small mistings. Don't dump the water on too fast. If you do, you run risks you don't want. Just keep misting until it well glisens and stop. Keep doing one to three times a day until it looks real moist. You can do this with an ultrasonic on a timer to turn on every couple hours for say 10 minutes too if you want to go fancy.

In the fruiter, you want conditions to be 95% to 98% RH but I like to avoid 100% RH myself because it tends to increse the chances of mold or maybe the fact you have 100% RH indicates too little air exchange (passive or active it doesn't much matter with cubes) which also increases the chances of mold. Keep ambient temps from 74F to 80F. If it gets a little hotter (say 82F), that's okay. If it gets much colder and stays colder (say 70F), that's worse in my experience.

In 7 to 10 days, you should see pins. By that time, the casing should be nearly saturated. You can discontinue misting so much or entirely. If you do mist, keep it light (and some species like Pan Cyans which I am not covering here, will totally abort with any misting).

That's it! So, let's review: mix up a pH-balanced casing featuring calcium carbonate and peat, lay the casing 3/4" to 1" deep and even, incubate the casing well covered to prevent it from breathing too much, light scratch the casing to even out the growth, fruit out the casing misting it up to saturation! It's easy!

Here are the kind of results you can expect (trays of mine):



Edited by Blue Helix (03/11/06 10:06 AM)


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5389074 - 03/11/06 12:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Good point Blue Helix 100% humidity does not allow adequate transpiration/evaporation which is critical to good primordia formation. I do recommend a little hydrated lime whenever working with peat based casings it's affects are immediate and quite beneficial AS LONG AS YOU DON"T OVER DO IT this stuff is quite concentrated. CaCO3 works great also and makes hydrated not as necessary as when using oyster shell flour. Nice scratch-n-sniff ya got there Blue!
BTW folks "near saturation" never saturation thats the difference a fine touch makes and separates the experienced from the inexperienced. I know thats what you meant to say Blue Helix. :wink:


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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OfflineTheLegend
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae]
    #5389190 - 03/11/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Blue helix with such a good pinset like that i doubt you get a second flush? i doubt you need one either but still id say the substrate shrinks by about 60% :smile: Do you just chuck it or do you dunk them and try again cause id say you get every bit of nutrient out of it in the first flush


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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: tokey666]
    #5389239 - 03/11/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, near saturation. If you are going to use hydrated lime, my pH probe has shown that one should never use over 1/4 teaspoon per cup. I recommend between 1/8th to 1/4 teaspoon per cup. About a level tablespoon per 15 cups (rather than the 1.2 cups recommended by Ryche Hawke) is plenty. That's give you abou a 10 pH right after mix up, but it'll drop to the 8s or upper 7s in a week.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5389671 - 03/11/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Helix said:
Yeah, near saturation.  If you are going to use hydrated lime, my pH probe has shown that one should never use over 1/4 teaspoon per cup.  I recommend between 1/8th to 1/4 teaspoon per cup.  About a level tablespoon per 15 cups (rather than the 1.2 cups recommended by Ryche Hawke) is plenty.  That's give you about a 10 pH right after mix up, but it'll drop to the 8s or upper 7s in a week.



I usually add 1tsp. hydrated and 1-2tbs. long term buffer per quart of mix so I guess I was still on the acidic side a bit maybe. I'm surprised that I was able to get 7-8 flushes from quite a few! I've never done a pH check I've just went with what worked for me, good to know I was on the conservative side! :wink:


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae]
    #5389792 - 03/11/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
I usually add 1tsp. hydrated and 1-2tbs. long term buffer per quart of mix so I guess I was still on the acidic side a bit maybe. I'm surprised that I was able to get 7-8 flushes from quite a few! I've never done a pH check I've just went with what worked for me, good to know I was on the conservative side! :wink:




No, if you were adding it at that rate to peat alone it would be perfect and in the range I suggested.  If you add 1 teaspoon per quart of peat moss and a quart is four cups, you added 1/4th teaspoon per cup basically.  I suggested 1/8 to 1/4th teaspoon per cup of peat moss given the measurements I have done with my pH probe.  Hydrated lime is highly basic, so if anything since you add to the MIX rather than just to the peat alone you are on the basic side, not the acidic.  But keep in mind that when you add 1 cup of peat moss to 1 cup of vermiculite, you don't get 2 cups of mix.  It doesn't work that way with things of unequal particle size.  I bet if you really looked, you'd be very close to the range of 1/4 to 1/8 teaspoon of hydrated lime per cup of peat in your mix.

You do realize that the original 50/50 Tek suggests to add approximately 14.4 times the hydrated lime per cup than I do when I recommend 1/4 teaspoon per cup of peat?  The recipe is a fraud (at least that part of it) and probably wasted hundreds of man hours in failures.


Edited by Blue Helix (03/11/06 05:19 PM)


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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5389852 - 03/11/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Helix said:
Quote:

hyphae said:
You do realize that the original 50/50 Tek suggests to add approximately 14.4 times the hydrated lime per cup than I do when I recommend 1/4 teaspoon per cup of peat? The recipe is a fraud (at least that part of it) and probably wasted hundreds of man hours in failures.




I hear you on that one. I would wager 1000's of wasted man hours, on a "shit" casing recipe, that dooms one to FAILURE.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5389869 - 03/11/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

When measuring in volume I have always gotten equal ratios, I mean I fill a 2cup measuring cup full it's 2 cups no matter what goes in there it fills the measuring cup to the top the same with peat so I'm clueless what your referring to BTW my job requires accurately measuring by volume as well as weight that is where I believe you are confused? Anyway I was referring to peat and verm combined then adding buffers. If  my reasoning/training is off please let me know so I can let our industry know! LOL just givin ya a little shit bro :wink: All I know is that I've always measure casing mixes by volume not weight at least thats the way my colleagues and I learned and has worked awesome over the years. :wink:


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Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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Offlinetokey666
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: Blue Helix]
    #5389888 - 03/11/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Holy crap! I forgot about this thread until now. Thanks for the help to both of you!

A few quick followups:

My casing layer is jiffy mix/verm/coir/crushed shells as recommended by agar. Its basically the 50/50 mix with a handful of coir and shells. Since coir colonizes so quickly, it "brings the myc to the top quickly." And for those who don't know, Jiffy Mix ingredients are peat, verm and lime.

Ok, basically overnight, (about a 18 hour period) my casing colonized from small splotches that weren't big enough to patch, to this....


That pic was taken minutes after I put them in the fruiting chamber.

Now from what I am reading, it seems, that because of my automated chamber, the humidity levels aren't what they should be. Should I attribute this to my problem, OR would it be my casing?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae]
    #5389897 - 03/11/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

When using hydrated lime, it's important to let the product 'rest' after adding the lime so everything can equalize out. I do this by adding the dry hydrated lime to the dry peat. Gypsum is added at the same time and mixed in well. I use a full teaspoon of hydrated lime per cup of peat, and gypsum is added at the rate of 5% to 10% of the total peat. After bringing to the correct moisture level, moistened verm is then mixed in. When allowed to sit like this for an hour, the ph is 7.3 to 8.0 every time, which is perfect for a casing layer. (be sure to test each recipie with the brand of peat you use)

Now, that being said, pinset quality is as much a product of the genetics of the particular substrain as it is the skill of the grower, or the type of materials he uses. There's a lot we can do to screw up a good pinset, but if the strain is poor, there's not much that even the most skilled grower can do to get a decent flush.
RR


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5389927 - 03/11/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I have always mixed then pasteurized so that has allowed all the ingredients to meld quite nicely. Thanks for the ratios. I definitely agree substrain has it's importance in pin count thats why when we clone we choose fruitbodies that come from clusters and not a loner guys. There are many things in this hobby that need to be taken into consideration for sure many of which can only be realize thru experience.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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Re: pinset correlation between substrate depth? [Re: hyphae]
    #5390791 - 03/12/06 12:39 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You started talking weight, not me. I was just saying that I measure 1/4 teaspoon per cup of peat moss. You add that much to the mix. So, I was trying to figure out how much you add per cup of PEAT, and the truth is I have no way of knowing that. If you measure a cup of mix out, I have no idea how much peat moss that is because I have no idea how peat and vermiculite pack together. I never measured it. Sometimes you add a cup of stuff A and a cup of stuff B and you get 1.5 cups of a mix. Sometimes you get 2 cups. Sometimes you get 1.25 cups. Hell, you could even in theory add a cup of A and a cup of B and get a cup of the mix because all of A could fit between the parts of thing B. It all depends on how the two things fit together.


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