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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Psychedelic dilemma... no more!
    #5383111 - 03/09/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well, the time has come for me to make my decision regarding psychedelics.  I am going to be entering the next phase of my monastic ordination (Soto Zen), and my teacher tells me that I have to give up all substances.  The problem is I thought it would be an easy decision.  Now here I am, questioning my path, and I dont know what I am going to do.  On one hand, I value psychedelics, and I see them as great spiritual aids and I dont think I am ready to give them up.  On the other hand, I feel that if I keep using them, I am deluding myself as to what the meaning of enlightenment really is. I had a trip planned for the middle of June (10 hits LSD), and now I am seriously doubting this all because of what my teacher said about them being a distraction on the path.  But I feel that I can still get much use from them.  Ahhh... I dont know what I am going to do.  Any input?

:heart: Peace :heart:

:hippie:


Edited by Quoiyaien (08/20/06 10:44 AM)


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5383123 - 03/09/06 09:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well you could think of it sort of like this:
Psychedelics are (not necessarily, but assumedly) enlightenment... until they are over.

A spiritual path is true enlightenment. Can psychedelics be incorporated into a spiritual path that leads quickly to ultimate realization? Maybe........

your teacher does not think so. Have you discusess this in depth with him/her?

The issue I see is you are using things TIED to this reality in order to get out of this reality. But when you meditate you are using your own brain to get out of this reality.

The latter is clearly the superior option. Psychedelics can puportedly train you for the bardo, for death........ and if you clean out karma and use psychedelis as described in the psychedelic experience to attain liberation and ego-rebirth then they may be a great spiritual gift.

But........... its up to you. You probably know more about Zen and psychedelis than most of the people that will be respnding to this thread.

I see it like when you take a drug, it automatically throws your mine into "focus mode" for a period of time...... (this period being the comeup) say so you have a 45 minute come up on LSD.... it would be like sitting in a deep meditation for 45 minutes of un-interrupted stream-flow of consciousness............. and would yield LSD results.

but if you take LSD it just thrusts you there whether you intend to be or not, and then you slowly readjust to normal frequencies of consciousness.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: leery11]
    #5383136 - 03/09/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

psychedelics are not necessary, give up thinking about them and it will be of great help.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5384403 - 03/10/06 04:06 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

If you are serious about your path, you should be willing to give up your attachment to everything. Enlightenment is'nt some point in the future, its always present. Give up your ideas of loss and gain and be present so your true nature can shine through unobscured. Listen to your teacher and become one with the way. Your teacher is a manifestation of your own wisdom, if you ignore his advice, you may miss a precious oppertunity. For Death is near, it comes without warning, soon this body will be a corpse. Consider carefully what is of real value and importance, and with wisdom, enter fully onto that path without a moments hesitation. This is my humble advice, i hope it meets you well. :heart:


--------------------


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Sinbad]
    #5384423 - 03/10/06 04:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I agree much with the advice the others have given.

I think though, that a priori submission, transcendent Zen, the wacka-wacka of all-serious-diviniation, cannot expound your spiritual development as quickly as the growth that you will make in your daily life with the revealations that come to you when you listens, hear, feel, touch...the word and others.

In other words, giving up psychedelics for an indefinite amount will probably be a great thing for you, but the abstinence must come from your own gut. It will happen when you want it to happen. When you're ready you'll give it up, because you will no longer long to be there with the psychedelics.

Good luck, any way you go.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5384439 - 03/10/06 04:53 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Quoiyaien said:
Well, the time has come for me to make my decision regarding psychedelics.  I am going to be entering the next phase of my monastic ordination (Soto Zen), and my teacher tells me that I have to give up all substances.  The problem is I thought it would be an easy decision.  Now here I am, questioning my path, and I dont know what I am going to do.  On one hand, I value psychedelics, and I see them as great spiritual aids and I dont think I am ready to give them up.  On the other hand, I feel that if I keep using them, I am deluding myself as to what the meaning of enlightenment really is. I had a trip planned for the middle of June (10 hits LSD), and now I am seriously doubting this all because of what my teacher said about them being a distraction on the path.  But I feel that I can still get much use from them.  Ahhh... I dont know what I am going to do.  Any input?

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:




I bet your teacher just wants him to do it "my way" .. Do what you feel is to do... and be honest about it..  :crazy2: :thumbup:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5384444 - 03/10/06 04:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As you well know, there is a difference between seeing the path and being the path. Drugs certainly help one see the path, and perhaps even to be the path for a bit. However, drugs can only do so much... their effects only last for so long. If this is the life you have chosen for yourself, then at some point you will have to give up the crutch (drugs) and learn to become the path on your own. Until then, you are standing on the shore, testing the water temperature with your toes.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineKaleidoscope
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Seuss]
    #5384457 - 03/10/06 05:15 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

the power of psychedelic drugs, while mind blowing, pales in comparison with what you can achieve without them. the question is, are you ready to deal with this knowlege without the crutch of "oh, I'm on drugs."


--------------------

Purple haze, all in my brain, lately things just don't seem the same. Actin' funny but I don't know why, 'scuse me while I kiss the sky.


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InvisibleDarkcloud
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5384484 - 03/10/06 05:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You need to do what YOU WANT to do. Don't take this the wrong way, but I think this "path" is bullshit.

For one thing, don't forget that one of the most powerful psychedelics in the world, a.k.a DMT, is found in your own brain. Isn't it ironic that DMT has been associated with some deeper forms of meditation? Isn't it ironic that DMT is released during one of the most spiritual times of your life...a.k.a death? Any way you look at it, many religions dislike drugs...but yet a certain psychedelic is key to the "spiritual process"!

Again, it's just another section where "science" blows "religion" out of the water (checkout DMT research by Dr. Rick Strassman). I just feel that many of these "paths" lead people away from their own True Will...


--------------------
:poison: :poison: :poison:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Darkcloud]
    #5384562 - 03/10/06 07:06 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

That's true, you can go spiritual by what your teacher teaches you, and still do psychedelics, it's only up to you. You could start by doing a break and seeing if it helps you, if not, continue with them.
I'm not saying that you teacher talks bull shit, but what applies for one person, doesn't have to apply for the other. Just do whatever you feel to do to get there, cause you and only you can decide and know what works better for you.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Darkcloud]
    #5384750 - 03/10/06 09:03 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Darkcloud said:
You need to do what YOU WANT to do. Don't take this the wrong way, but I think this "path" is bullshit.

For one thing, don't forget that one of the most powerful psychedelics in the world, a.k.a DMT, is found in your own brain. Isn't it ironic that DMT has been associated with some deeper forms of meditation? Isn't it ironic that DMT is released during one of the most spiritual times of your life...a.k.a death? Any way you look at it, many religions dislike drugs...but yet a certain psychedelic is key to the "spiritual process"!

Again, it's just another section where "science" blows "religion" out of the water (checkout DMT research by Dr. Rick Strassman). I just feel that many of these "paths" lead people away from their own True Will...




all psychedelics work because the brain is able to receive them. LSD messes with serotonin which the brain produces....

What you are overlooking is the method of activating DMT. EVERYONE can smoke it and become spiritual. This requirse no dedication, discipline, or self knowledge. Few can meditate and therefore have MASTERY of the DMT experience...........

once you can break through to that experience with meditation. You can go back any time you want, on your own, with no crutches or hinderances in your path.

But for DMT you have to procure and smoke it, always. It's an attachment.

furthermore if you vow to abstain from psychedelics as part of a spiritual initiation, it would not be a good idea to break these vows.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (03/10/06 09:04 AM)


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5384847 - 03/10/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As Ram Dass puts it, the goal is to BE high, not GET high. Psychedelics will get you high, and so you will be high for a while, but then you will come down. If your teacher is able to let you find your original face, so to speak, then you will always be high, and won't need psychedelics.

As everyone else says, they can be extremely useful, but also carry the risk of attachment.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: dblaney]
    #5384904 - 03/10/06 09:53 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Is your teacher attached to not taking psychadelics? Perhaps he would partake in them with you? Such would be a perfect oppurtunity for him to demonstrate to you why it is now time to move past them. As a teacher, he should sense that it is, as you put it, a dilemna, and he should assist you in giving you the understanding to come to the realization that he is promoting.

Eh? :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5384915 - 03/10/06 09:56 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

:lol: :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: dblaney]
    #5384949 - 03/10/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Psychedellic teddybear
put it away and go to camp.
see you later
?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:馃  _ :finger:


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5384967 - 03/10/06 10:06 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Is your teacher attached to not taking psychadelics? Perhaps he would partake in them with you? Such would be a perfect oppurtunity for him to demonstrate to you why it is now time to move past them. As a teacher, he should sense that it is, as you put it, a dilemna, and he should assist you in giving you the understanding to come to the realization that he is promoting.

Eh? :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




:lol:  Brilliant!  I dont know if you are kidding or not, but that seems like a great idea.  Tripping with a Zen master.  That would be the coolest experience in the world.  Although if I asked, he would probably laugh, and hit me on the head with a stick.  He would then probably say "are you attached to my attachment?", then hit me again.  All while laughing, going "whats the problem?"  Damn Zen masters. 

Kidding aside, I think I will bring this up at Dokusan.  Thanks.

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5385002 - 03/10/06 10:15 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I wasn't entirely kidding. I would seem to doubt that your teacher would partake in the experience, but I do not know your teacher. The experience for a Zen master would probably be the same as every experience, but I haven't really studied Zen in depth. :grin:

It reminds me of that classic tale wherein Ram Dass hands the master a ton of lsd, who consumes it, and it seems to have no effect. :wink:

Personally, I would choose to forego the usage of psychadelics to pursue the oppurtunity you have before you. Perhaps it is proposed that psychadelics are a distraction because the experience of being within the now that results becomes identified with the psychadelic, or as a result of the psychadelic. Perhaps they are not necessary because, after following your path, you will naturally experience such a state as the result of your development and your dissolution into the present. 0

Ultimately, its your choice and your path (although delving deep into Zen will likely dissolve the illusion of said path :wink:), but if I personally had the same oppurtunity right before me, I'd seize it. :thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineQuoiyaien
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5385082 - 03/10/06 10:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for all the replies.  I feel I should clarify the reason for abstaining.  At this point, it is a matter of legality.  I dont actually recieve the precepts for a few more years, so I could do them if I choose.  But I have to take into consideration that that just reinforces the attachment to them.  That, and they wont let me continue to the next phase unless I tell them I have cut out the illegal substances.  And you try lying to a monk.  I can still enjoy wine and other legally obtained indulgances in moderation.  So I suppose salvia is still an option.  So I think I have made up my mind.  I have an opportunity to give away my stash this week, as I am going to visit with a bunch of friends who would love this stuff.  I have 1000+ trips of various substances.  Damn, I spent more time collecting psychedelics than I did using them.  Oh well.  Thanks for your help.

:heart:Peace:heart:

:hippie:


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5961440 - 08/14/06 01:12 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If I may add my 2 cents:

Quote:

Quoiyaien said:
Just some support on this idea, although I have no specific sources, is about an LSD researcher who decided to give some acid to some monks.  He gave it to a few, but when he gave it to a Zen master, the master did not feel anything.  He gave him more, nothing.  Even after injesting 900mcg (or something like that) he still said that it was no different than meditation.  The researcher gave up psychedelic research, and took up contemplative life. 




In my minds eye I'm picturing Zen monks in monastic environments with beatific expressions.

Quote:

Quoiyaien said:
Here I am, on acid again...  I really odnt know why I am posting her but this is where my mousebuttin seamed to lead me.  Can you do to much acid?  I only took one hit (incredibly potent), but I am referring to frequency of trips.  Every 3 or 4 days now it seems, is this bad?  Oh well, whatever, I totally forgot the main reason I came here, but ill try and wing it.  Fuck it I dont remember..




Have you tried the meditation experiment on shrooms? Was there a difference?

(ooops!) replied to wrong post :crazy:


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.


Edited by Booby (08/14/06 01:15 AM)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Psychedelic dilemma [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #5961831 - 08/14/06 04:38 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quoiyaien said:
Well, the time has come for me to make my decision regarding psychedelics.  I am going to be entering the next phase of my monastic ordination (Soto Zen), and my teacher tells me that I have to give up all substances.  The problem is I thought it would be an easy decision.  Now here I am, questioning my path, and I dont know what I am going to do.  On one hand, I value psychedelics, and I see them as great spiritual aids and I dont think I am ready to give them up.  On the other hand, I feel that if I keep using them, I am deluding myself as to what the meaning of enlightenment really is. I had a trip planned for the middle of June (10 hits LSD), and now I am seriously doubting this all because of what my teacher said about them being a distraction on the path.  But I feel that I can still get much use from them.  Ahhh... I dont know what I am going to do.  Any input?

:heart:peace:heart:

:hippie:




What has aided through your past, up until now, and to the future?

You, or drugs?

I'd say, use them as a supplement, but not as a catalyst/trigger..
Aid yourself!  :grin::thumbup:

"The/a healthy(rested) brain, holds more "drugs" than any other place on earth.."
-Unknown :p


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