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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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Thelema?
#5381692 - 03/09/06 03:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I was just wondering if there were any other thelmites on the boards. Did a search, but nothing showed up.
Well, in any case if so 93!!!
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goatboy7
The ArchaicRevivalist

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I'm not really a Thelemite (mostly because I don't like labels) but I'm a huge reader of Crowley. We should definitely talk Crowley some time though.
-------------------- "If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." --Terence McKenna "Ordinary morality is only for ordinary people."--Aleister Crowley
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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I'm reading The Confessions of Aleister Crowley currently, but I read his works as far back as 1972 when I was first emerging from a materialist, scientific positivist mentality. He was one of the last of his kind in terms of a modern, taking magickal things seriously, but he was a real ass***e to women, animals, Jews and Blacks. For this he can be no personality to admire, despite his insight in Qabbalism. Even on that score his cross-contamination of Enochian magic (insisting that the chief 'protector demon' Choronzon lay in the Abyss of the Tree of Life - and could be overcome in a magick circle ritual) was part of his own creative madness, not authentic Qabbalism.
Recently, I came to certain conclusions about the origins of Christianity (30+ years past leaving a Christian seminary), the nature of the doctrine of the Trinity, and important Egyptian contributions. Then I read some of Crowley's writngs again and was surprised that he had made the same Gnostic associations at the turn of the 19th century! So despite his undeveloped personality (which indicates that he never actually achieved The Knowledge and Conversation of his Holy Guardian Angel [Abra Melin's term]) - that he never came to dwell in Tiphereth, except symbolically at his altar in the circle), his intellect-in-isolation can be picked for some insights (IMHO).
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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Re: Thelema? [Re: goatboy7]
#5384935 - 03/10/06 09:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Nice to meet you. I would be happy to talk about any of the old goat's writings or such...or reading them while tripping
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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Nice to meet you as well. I respectfully disagree with your conclusions, but happy to have an open discussion.
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JacquesCousteau
Being.


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Quote:
novumorganum said: Nice to meet you as well. I respectfully disagree with your conclusions, but happy to have an open discussion.
Now that's what I'm talkin' bout! *clap* Boo-yeah.
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Silverwolf
sandtrout


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Quote:
JacquesCousteau said:
Quote:
novumorganum said: Nice to meet you as well. I respectfully disagree with your conclusions, but happy to have an open discussion.
Now that's what I'm talkin' bout! *clap* Boo-yeah.
May I add a "hoorah!". Like what you said... yeah the "Eleventh Sphere" was Crowley's trip. Still can't understand why even if he did "modify" The Sephiroth he ever thought that placing himself outside a consecrated circle whilst evoking a demon was a good idea!
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
Edited by Silverwolf (03/10/06 03:30 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Quote:
Silverwolf said:
Quote:
JacquesCousteau said: May I add a "hoorah!". Like what you said... yeah the "Eleventh Sphere" was Crowley's trip. Still can't understand why even if he did "modify" The Sephiroth he ever thought that placing himself outside a consecrated circle whilst evoking a demon was a good idea!
If I may butt-in...Crowley claimed that "the fiend," Choronzon, threw sand over the circle and gained entrance, wherein 'it' seized and possessed Crowley, causing him to physically attack his assistant Victor Newburg. Now, firstly, the Qabbalistic 'Abyss' is a metaphysical construct which separates the lower three worlds from the world of the Supernals (the Godhead). The way across the Abyss, is through Da'ath - Gnosis. I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but I have read between 40 and 50 books on Qabbalism, and I began my interest in '72.
Only in Crowley do you have this drama that introduces ceremonial magick into Qabbalistic mysticism. Only in Crowley does one find Enochian barbaric names attributed to Qaballistic metaphysical 'space' (i.e., the Abyss). All this sounds a lot more like the Qlippothic mirror image of the Tree of Life - the realm of 'broken vessels' in which damaged entities (demons) cling to the 'shards.' It sounds nothing like classic Qabbalism, but reads more like an H.P. Lovecraft story.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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During his evocatory invocation of chronozon, Crowley sat inside the triangle of the art. He did this as a result of received information?presented to him in a vision of the 11 aethyr to explain why he was not able to enter into the 10 aethyr. (The operation happened as Crowley was skrying the Enochian aethyrs. It is documented in Liber 418, and the ritual is recreated in Regardie?s The Eye in the Triangle.)
The aethyrs can be worked as an entire initiatory system, much like ceremonialists use the paths and sephira on the Tree of Life. This operation, according to AC, resulted in his passing through the 10th (the location of ?the abyss? of this system) and was successfully concluded when he received the correct spelling of Babalon?the name of silence to defeat Chronozon. After he passed into the 9th aethyr, where he was welcomed into the City of the Pyramids.
I guess this long answer was that AC was instructed to do this by the rulers of the 11th aethyr.
Others have since done this, probably the most well known is Joel Biroco.
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Silverwolf
sandtrout


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Your "butt" is appreciated in this regard. However there is an understanding that seems to be missing from modern Quabbalism. Ask yourself what it is because I don't know!
"Ma'aseh Merkabah"
(re: Crowley. Yeah but his influence has been so dominant no-one else has been able to get a decent word in edgewise.)
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
Edited by Silverwolf (03/10/06 05:26 PM)
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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Well, here we have a point of disagreement between hermetic and rabbinical qabbalists. AC is not the first to mix hermetic methodology with qabbala ( Levi and Mathers come to mind?Mathers especially in regard to enochian) and many have continued after. I would not dare to say that pure rabbinical or hermetic qabbala is better?simply that there are two very developed discourses. Qabbala and hermeticism have been mixing since at least the Greek mysteries?some would even point back as far as the Egyptian.
I also disagree with using current standards to make an historical analysis of Crowley?s personality, and then using that to judge his attainment
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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Quote:
Silverwolf said:
Quote:
JacquesCousteau said:
Quote:
novumorganum said: Nice to meet you as well. I respectfully disagree with your conclusions, but happy to have an open discussion.
Now that's what I'm talkin' bout! *clap* Boo-yeah.
May I add a "hoorah!". Like what you said... yeah the "Eleventh Sphere" was Crowley's trip. Still can't understand why even if he did "modify" The Sephiroth he ever thought that placing himself outside a consecrated circle whilst evoking a demon was a good idea!
well, I'm a mod at an occult board, so I'm a strong believer in civil board discussion.
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Silverwolf
sandtrout


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Quote:
novumorganum said: Well, here we have a point of disagreement between hermetic and rabbinical qabbalists. AC is not the first to mix hermetic methodology with qabbala ( Levi and Mathers come to mind?Mathers especially in regard to enochian) and many have continued after. I would not dare to say that pure rabbinical or hermetic qabbala is better?simply that there are two very developed discourses. Qabbala and hermeticism have been mixing since at least the Greek mysteries?some would even point back as far as the Egyptian.
I also disagree with using current standards to make an historical analysis of Crowley?s personality, and then using that to judge his attainment
Yeah, where is all that Greek stuff? (apart from the British Fraggin Museum)
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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I'm not sure I understand the question. There is a greek qabala. Much ceremonial work comes from the various neo-platonic movements. Just a very general response would be that the greece, rome, egypt were a real cultural stew.
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Silverwolf
sandtrout


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Quote:
novumorganum said: I'm not sure I understand the question. There is a greek qabala. Much ceremonial work comes from the various neo-platonic movements. Just a very general response would be that the greece, rome, egypt were a real cultural stew.
Shiny bud, can you post us some source material?
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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I appreciate any historical correction, and whereas I understand the differences in approach to Qabbalism, be it Rabbinic, Hermetic, Thelemic or Alexandrian for that matter, I have my own standard for 'attainment' and bigotry indicates a complete lack thereof. In fact, I question any worthwhile endeavor of Crowley past his early years - an opinion that I share with Israel Regardie. Crowley's refusal to instruct Regardie in Magick when he was a young secretary may well have been a matter of Crowley's antisemitism.
Whatever. The man for all his fascination and insight into magickal, Qabbalistic (and to a certain extent Yogic-mystical) phenomenon was a failure as a human being. Madness and death constellated around him, histrionic and narcissistic personality disorders made him flamboyant, but it was his paranoia, delusions of grandeur that really sent him over the edge as hawk-headed messiah of the new age. In terms of the discipline of psycho-history, Crowley is a rare treat, but as some kind of role-model, followers (or worshipers!) are never gonna cross the Veil of Paroketh and come to establish themselves as Tiphereth by any understanding that I have of this sphere. Tiphereth, alternatively Rahamim, means Compassion, and this is characterized by humility which does not exactly characterize Aleister Crowley.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Silverwolf
sandtrout


Registered: 09/06/03
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: I appreciate any historical correction, and whereas I understand the differences in approach to Qabbalism, be it Rabbinic, Hermetic, Thelemic or Alexandrian for that matter, I have my own standard for 'attainment' and bigotry indicates a complete lack thereof. In fact, I question any worthwhile endeavor of Crowley past his early years - an opinion that I share with Israel Regardie. Crowley's refusal to instruct Regardie in Magick when he was a young secretary may well have been a matter of Crowley's antisemitism.
Whatever. The man for all his fascination and insight into magickal, Qabbalistic (and to a certain extent Yogic-mystical) phenomenon was a failure as a human being. Madness and death constellated around him, histrionic and narcissistic personality disorders made him flamboyant, but it was his paranoia, delusions of grandeur that really sent him over the edge as hawk-headed messiah of the new age. In terms of the discipline of psycho-history, Crowley is a rare treat, but as some kind of role-model, followers (or worshipers!) are never gonna cross the Veil of Paroketh and come to establish themselves as Tiphereth by any understanding that I have of this sphere. Tiphereth, alternatively Rahamim, means Compassion, and this is characterized by humility which does not exactly characterize Aleister Crowley.
Sorry, understanding of which sphere do you posses that will not allow them to cross the Abyss?
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
Edited by Silverwolf (03/10/06 06:03 PM)
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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Silverwolf
sandtrout


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Quote:
novumorganum said: http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/library/libers/lib_1264.html
http://www.masoncode.com/Greek%20Gematria.htm http://www.hermetic.com/pgm/index.html
http://www.hermetic.com/texts/index.html
sorry, only a bit of time for a few at the moment
Thank you.
(You know I always get the feeling that I should file posted information immediately in-case the shroomery's not here when I get back ?!)
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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hey, I'm in south florida too!
well, Regardie's opinion on AC changed dramatically, after time had passed. Much of his later writing bears this out, most notably The Eye in the Triangle.
I question his "failure" as a human being and such. There are newer, more scholarly biographies of the great beast (Do What thou Wilt, and Perdurabo)which make this a much more complex question than the "most evil man alive" jibe that used mostly tabloid and spurned suitors as source material. I in no way want to white wash this very complex individual, but in no way should we just paint him with the brush of invective.
As for his attainments of 5=6 and other grades, well the works produced have to speak as much as any life activity, no?
oh, and one last point, the spheres above tiph carry other attributes, and attaining to them, would thus mean the development of other traits in an individual? I would imagine 5 geburah in this conjecture
Edited by novum (03/10/06 06:13 PM)
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Silverwolf
sandtrout


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Quote:
novumorganum said: hey, I'm in south florida too!
well, Regardie's opinion on AC changed dramatically, after time had passed. Much of his later writing bears this out, most notably The Eye in the Triangle.
I question his "failure" as a human being and such. There are newer, more scholarly biographies of the great beast (Do What thou Wilt, and Perdurabo)which make this a much more complex question than the "most evil man alive" jibe that used mostly tabloid and spurned suitors as source material. I in no way want to white wash this very complex individual, but in no way should we just paint him with the brush of invective.
As for his attainments of 5=6 and other grades, well the works produced have to speak as much as any life activity, no?
oh, and one last point, the spheres above tiph carry other attributes, and attaining to them, would thus mean the development of other traits in an individual? I would imagine 5 geburah in this conjecture
Look man I live in Britain right thinking people don't take the "Daily Express" seriously anymore. But could he write poetry?
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
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Silverwolf
sandtrout


Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 1,108
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Quote:
novumorganum said: hey, I'm in south florida too!
well, Regardie's opinion on AC changed dramatically, after time had passed. Much of his later writing bears this out, most notably The Eye in the Triangle.
I question his "failure" as a human being and such. There are newer, more scholarly biographies of the great beast (Do What thou Wilt, and Perdurabo)which make this a much more complex question than the "most evil man alive" jibe that used mostly tabloid and spurned suitors as source material. I in no way want to white wash this very complex individual, but in no way should we just paint him with the brush of invective.
As for his attainments of 5=6 and other grades, well the works produced have to speak as much as any life activity, no?
oh, and one last point, the spheres above tiph carry other attributes, and attaining to them, would thus mean the development of other traits in an individual? I would imagine 5 geburah in this conjecture
Ah! But these are stages of integration not development surely?
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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Hi silverwolfe...the first part of that thread wasn't directed at you..sorry but any cross currents.
hey ever run into any of the typhonian/grant guys around london?
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
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Sorry, that was unclear. Please re-phrase.
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EarthDroid
Old Crank(Veteran)

Registered: 01/25/06
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Sweet! I am currently setting up my alter. I have been doing a pentagram ritual, 4 adorations and 3 yoga sessions a day now for about 2 months.
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Silverwolf
sandtrout


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Quote:
NemoLotus said: Sweet! I am currently setting up my alter. I have been doing a pentagram ritual, 4 adorations and 3 yoga sessions a day now for about 2 months.
Ah "inflame thyself with prayer" !
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
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Silverwolf
sandtrout


Registered: 09/06/03
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Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Quote:
novumorganum said: Hi silverwolfe...the first part of that thread wasn't directed at you..sorry but any cross currents.
hey ever run into any of the typhonian/grant guys around london?
Don't hang with the Crowleyians much anymore, "Typhonian" (re; "The Thypon struggle" yes?) "Grant" who? No.
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
Edited by Silverwolf (03/10/06 07:15 PM)
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Shnezbit
Psycho-naught


Registered: 09/30/04
Posts: 1,202
Loc: The Threshold.
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i'm not a thelemite but i do enjoy crowley. i find him entertaining and enlightening at the same time. i like that about him.
the book of lies is an artistic masterpiece.
i think there is alot of good points in the thelemic philosophy too. but like another poster said, i don't like lables.
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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Re: Thelema? [Re: Shnezbit]
#5391874 - 03/12/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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nice to meet you. love the baph!
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Silverwolf
sandtrout


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"As above, so below"
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
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goatboy7
The ArchaicRevivalist

Registered: 08/03/05
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Does anyone on here read any Kenneth Grant? I know some of his ideas are often looked down upon by Thelemites, but I think he's a pretty great writer.
-------------------- "If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." --Terence McKenna "Ordinary morality is only for ordinary people."--Aleister Crowley
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Shnezbit
Psycho-naught


Registered: 09/30/04
Posts: 1,202
Loc: The Threshold.
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Re: Thelema? [Re: goatboy7]
#5393049 - 03/12/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i enjoy grant as well. the nightside of eden is a great book. the only thing with grant though is alot of his theories are seriously flawed. often he'll base several pages of writing on gamatria that is incoerrect. i enjoy grant more for entertainment value rather than scholorship.
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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Re: Thelema? [Re: Shnezbit]
#5394814 - 03/13/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I enjoy Grant as well, but I have a problem with his "creative gematria". Check out Alan Moore's review of Grant in Kaos 14 (www.biroco.com)
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Shnezbit
Psycho-naught


Registered: 09/30/04
Posts: 1,202
Loc: The Threshold.
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cool.
if you haven't had a chance to check this out then do. its got some godd interviews on podcast.
they interview achad's son, duquette, some guy about goetic evocation and lot of others.
http://www.thelemacoasttocoast.com/
also this site has some cool stuff. from here i got kenneath angers films:
http://www.media-underground.net/
but that site is under construction i think for the time being.
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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Re: Thelema? [Re: Shnezbit]
#5399837 - 03/14/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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93 cool thanks for the links, very cool
93/93
sigi funny too!
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Shnezbit
Psycho-naught


Registered: 09/30/04
Posts: 1,202
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Thanks 
That quote is from the sub genius, book 2 i think....the opening page if i remember right. Yea, i really enjoyed the #21 podcast where he interviews the writer of red flame about his Grady biography. I wanna get the 2 volumes, and the rest of the red flames look cool too. i'll probably get 'em all eventually.
Check out these two links and you can read a really good detailed synopsis of the Grady bio.
http://www.redflame93.com/RF12.html
http://www.redflame93.com/RF13.html
That guy rocked! I especially like the part about how he would visit Crowley in between fighting WWII. He was there on D-day and almost got killed twice. I can't wait to read the books.
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever


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Re: Thelema? [Re: Shnezbit]
#5400425 - 03/14/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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yeah...grady has been the victim of far too many character assaults and empty slander; i'm glad his story is being told outside the order.
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