|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Superstar of business retires...
#5380503 - 03/09/06 08:37 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
A FURIOUS row blew up last night as millions of pounds of taxpayers? cash was lavished on hospital bosses.
NHS chief Sir Nigel Crisp was sacked for overseeing a financial crisis ? but left with a bumper retirement deal.
It followed revelations that swathes of pen-pushers at foundation hospitals enjoyed inflation-busting pay rises.
The unprecedented NHS overspend ? which is nearing ?1billion ? has forced ward closures and cancelled ops.
Sir Nigel, 54, in charge since November 2000, said yesterday: ?I wish to acknowledge my accountability for these problems.?
But the ?195,000-a-year boss is to be made a PEER by Tony Blair to keep him on-side.
He will get a final-salary-linked civil service pension and NHS retirement package built up over 14 years? service.
It is also likely he received a handsome pay-off, which could boost his deal to six figures.
A Health Department source said: ?It is fair to say that Sir Nigel won?t be going hungry.?
Tory MP Mike Penningfumed: ?That money could have kept wards open.? http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006110180,00.html
|
wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Alex213]
#5380893 - 03/09/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
wouldn't "superstar of the public sector" be more accurate? the guy did work for the national health service, a government program, and that's where this pension's coming from, right? what has this got to do with private business, and what's your point exactly?
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: wilshire]
#5381267 - 03/09/06 12:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I thought "superstars of business" was a term bandied around in the earlier thread for chief executives - to justify their enormous salaries and payoffs.
Are you saying private sector chief executives would have been paid more? or less?
|
wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Alex213]
#5382240 - 03/09/06 05:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
the national health is not a business. it's a government program.
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: wilshire]
#5383863 - 03/10/06 12:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
So the chief executives of the NHS arn't businessmen?
Are you trying to say that chief executives don't get such payoffs in the private sector?
|
wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Alex213]
#5384781 - 03/10/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
So the chief executives of the NHS arn't businessmen?
no, they are not.
Are you trying to say that chief executives don't get such payoffs in the private sector?
yes, they do.
the logic here:
1. chief NHS executive wears a suit. 2. businessmen in the private sector wear suits. 3. therefore, chief executives of NHS are businessmen.
faulty.
prediction:
alex213 will attempt to redefine "businessman" as "one who receives big payoffs". however clear it may be that:
1. politicians, scientists, entertainers, public servants, and others who are not considered "businessmen" receive such 'payoffs', and 2. not all those who are considered "businessmen" receive such payoffs,
alex213 will stick to his redefinition, because it supports his position, though it flies in the face of simple logic and the commonly accepted definition of "business" and "businessman" available from various dictionaries.
but maybe i'll get surprised.
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: wilshire]
#5385327 - 03/10/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
no, they are not.
Don't be silly.
yes, they do.
So what is the point you are trying to make?
politicians, scientists, entertainers, public servants, and others who are not considered "businessmen" receive such 'payoffs'not all those who are considered "businessmen" receive such payoffs
So what?
alex213 will stick to his redefinition
What are you drooling on about?
Do you have a point to make or not?
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Alex213]
#5385363 - 03/10/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
So you -- Alex213 -- consider the chief of the National Health Service a businessman.
Do you also consider the chief of the Postal Service to be a businessman? If not, why not?
Phred
--------------------
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Phred]
#5385421 - 03/10/06 12:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
So you -- Alex213 -- consider the chief of the National Health Service a businessman.
Who is this "Chief" you speak of? What are you talking about? Have you been watching Dances with wolves?
Do you - "Phred" - mean the chief executive?
Do you also consider the chief of the Postal Service to be a businessman? As above.
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Alex213]
#5386310 - 03/10/06 03:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Alex213 writes:
Quote:
Who is this "Chief" you speak of?
I speak of Sir Nigel Crisp. As in:
"NHS chief Sir Nigel Crisp was sacked for overseeing a financial crisis ? but left with a bumper retirement deal."
To repeat my question, do you also consider the chief of the Postal Service to be a businessman? If not, why not?
Phred
--------------------
|
wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Alex213]
#5386797 - 03/10/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Don't be silly.
i'm not being silly. in my world, a "businessman" is one who is engaged in business, and since the national health is not a business those who administer the national health service, and other non-businesses like the post office, fire department, municipal waste disposal, police department, social services office, etc., are not businessmen.
do you believe that the postmaster is a businessman? what about the chief of police? the fire mashal?
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: wilshire]
#5388036 - 03/11/06 01:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
i'm not being silly
You do not believe being the chief executive of a multi-billion organisation that does billion pound deals with countless private buisness from drug companies to building companies to cleaning companies to privatised NHS trusts - you do not need a businessman to do this?
Then why are these chief executives paid so much? What is their function?
do you believe that the postmaster is a businessman?
I have no idea what you mean by the term "postmaster". The postmaster general? That position was abolished in 1969.
You do realise the postal service has been a state owned company since 1969? That private companies can now deliver mail? Are you claiming no businessmen are involved in running the postal service?
what about the chief of police?
Does the chief of police job consist of making multi-million pound business deals and overseeing billions of pounds on a daily basis? If it does then yes - he is a businessman.
the fire mashal?
See above.
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Alex213]
#5388668 - 03/11/06 09:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
So the deciding factor in your mind is that the government functionary in question is responsible for overseeing a budget of "billions of pounds"? I guess that makes the head of just about every government department a "businessman".
Now we just need to know at what point a government department head goes from being a regular old businessman to being a "superstar" of business. Is that based on how large his department's budget is? How successful he is at persuading parliament to increase his department's budget? How successful he is at staying within the budget parliament has assigned him?
Phred
--------------------
|
wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Alex213]
#5390216 - 03/11/06 07:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
could you define "business"?
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: wilshire]
#5390857 - 03/12/06 01:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
busi?ness (bzns) n. 1. a. The occupation, work, or trade in which a person is engaged: the wholesale food business. b. A specific occupation or pursuit: the best designer in the business. 2. Commercial, industrial, or professional dealings: new systems now being used in business. 3. A commercial enterprise or establishment: bought his uncle's business. 4. Volume or amount of commercial trade: Business had fallen off. 5. Commercial dealings; patronage: took her business to a trustworthy salesperson.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/business
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Phred]
#5390861 - 03/12/06 01:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
So the deciding factor in your mind is that the government functionary in question is responsible for overseeing a budget of "billions of pounds"?
Come again? When did I say this was the "deciding factor"?
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Alex213]
#5391279 - 03/12/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Does the chief of police job consist of making multi-million pound business deals and overseeing billions of pounds on a daily basis? If it does then yes - he is a businessman.
Your sole mentioned criterium for deciding a government functionary is to be classified a businessman is how much taxpayer money he spends. If he spends billions of pounds, he's a businessman in your eyes.
I ask again, at what point does this government funtionary graduate from being just a regular "businessman" and become a "superstar of business"?
Face it, Alex213, your thread is hilariously mistitled. Why not change it to reflect the reality of the situation it describes? Something like "Superstar of Government given Golden Parachute Retirement".
Phred
--------------------
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Phred]
#5391353 - 03/12/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Your sole mentioned criterium for deciding a government functionary is to be classified a businessman is how much taxpayer money he spends. If he spends billions of pounds
Now you are just being dishonest as usual.
Do you have a point?
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Alex213]
#5391372 - 03/12/06 09:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Now you are just being dishonest as usual.
Actually, Alex213, a review of your posts indicates your sole criterium for designating this guy a "superstar of business" is that the budget for his government department ran into the billions of pounds, so there is no dishonesty on my part. Rather there is an accurate grasp on my part of your assertion that somehow a government department head qualifies as a "superstar of business" if he gets to play with billions of pounds.
Yes, he oversaw the budget for his department, and yes, he spent billions of dollars in what you amusingly term "business deals" (i.e. signing requisition orders and paying for renovating hospitals etc.) but this in no way makes him any more of a "superstar of business" than the head of the Postal Service or the Chief of Police or the Minister of Education -- all of whom oversee budgets of billions of pounds and all of whom sign requisition orders and pay for renovating schools and police stations.
Quote:
Do you have a point?
The point is that the ex-head of the UK National Health Service is not a superstar of business. He's an ex-government department head.
Phred
--------------------
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Phred]
#5391432 - 03/12/06 09:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Actually, Alex213, a review of your posts indicates your sole criterium for designating this guy a "superstar of business" is that the budget for his government department ran into the billions of pounds
I'm sorry "Phred" but I have to call you on this blatant lie. Find me where I say this is the "sole criteria".
amusingly term "business deals" (i.e. signing requisition orders and paying for renovating hospitals etc
You clearly have no idea of what the NHS service in the UK does.
Chief of Police
A chief of police does business deals with countless private companies? Can you please provide more information on this.
The point is that the ex-head of the UK National Health Service is not a superstar of business
The term superstar of business was first used in a recent thread in relation to chief executives recieving enormous financial benefits. This man is a chief executive and is receiving enormous financial benefits. Can you comprehend this "Phred"?
I repeat, what is your point?
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Alex213]
#5391513 - 03/12/06 10:27 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I'm sorry "Phred" but I have to call you on this blatant lie. Find me where I say this is the "sole criteria".
When asked, all you provided as "proof" he was a "businessman" was that he spent money. Money given to him by Parliament. If you care to provide another criterium, now is your chance.
Quote:
You clearly have no idea of what the NHS service in the UK does.
Same thing the Canadian government-run health department does.
Quote:
A chief of police does business deals with countless private companies? Can you please provide more information on this.
He buys uniforms from private businesses. Office supplies from private businesses. Computers from private businesses. Weaponry, vehicles, ammunition, communications equipment and more from private businesses. Signs contracts for building new facilities and renovations to existing facilities with private businesses. Signs contracts with cleaning companies.
Quote:
The term superstar of business was first used in a recent thread in relation to chief executives recieving enormous financial benefits. This man is a chief executive and is receiving enormous financial benefits. Can you comprehend this "Phred"?
There is an essential difference between someone who heads a corporation in the private sector and one who heads a government department. Can you comprehend this, Alex213?
Phred
--------------------
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Phred]
#5391641 - 03/12/06 11:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Now that we've dealt with the "superstar of business" nonsense, let's look at the rest of the title you have chosen for this thread -- "Superstar of business retires". We are told by the author of the article you linked that
Quote:
NHS chief Sir Nigel Crisp was sacked for overseeing a financial crisis...
There is a difference between retiring and being fired (sacked). Or are you going to try to convince the readers that "sacked" and "retired" are every bit as equivalent as a superstar of business and a government department head?
Ladies and gentlemen, the Queen of bogus thread titles has been dethroned. Long live the King.
Phred
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Phred]
#5391694 - 03/12/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Anna would take extreme umbrage with that and will no doubt fight to the death to reclaim her primacy in that arena. Let the games begin.
--------------------
|
mack_tasticlies
Stranger

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 167
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: zappaisgod]
#5391701 - 03/12/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
ACN, Alex and Annapurna?
The fallout is gonna be something tremendous.
Edited by mack_tasticlies (03/12/06 12:01 PM)
|
wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
|
Re: Superstar of business retires... [Re: Alex213]
#5393055 - 03/12/06 07:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"busi?ness (bzns) n. 1. a. The occupation, work, or trade in which a person is engaged: the wholesale food business. b. A specific occupation or pursuit: the best designer in the business. 2. Commercial, industrial, or professional dealings: new systems now being used in business. 3. A commercial enterprise or establishment: bought his uncle's business. 4. Volume or amount of commercial trade: Business had fallen off. 5. Commercial dealings; patronage: took her business to a trustworthy salesperson."
i see 5 definitions there. which definition were you using when you wrote "superstar of business retires"?
Edited by wilshire (03/12/06 07:42 PM)
|
|