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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: outerwave]
#5378893 - 03/08/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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like music, dont like musicians 
j/k some of my best friends are musicians...
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....


Registered: 09/07/04
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: outerwave]
#5378907 - 03/08/06 07:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have lots of music I love, it just isn't on my computer....
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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debianlinux
Myconerd - DBK



Registered: 12/09/02
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#5378921 - 03/08/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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148GB and ~1200 LPs (all my CDs are ripped into that 148GB)
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....


Registered: 09/07/04
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: debianlinux]
#5378935 - 03/08/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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LPs, LoL....! I fergot about those.... I don't have as many as you, but I do have a stack 3/4 the way up my leg of old-school heavy metal shtuff~.... 
WoooooooT WoooooooT, but I haven't had a turntable for many many years....
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Burke Dennings
baby merchant

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 81,641
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#5378946 - 03/08/06 07:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Records are the best.
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debianlinux
Myconerd - DBK



Registered: 12/09/02
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: DieCommie]
#5378956 - 03/08/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: If you lose or damage your CD, you are expected to buy a new one, not download it. Making backup copies is no longer "fair use"
While I don not agree with this premise I do understand the logic.
You buy a CD and make a backup copy for your personal use that IS "fair use".
You buy a CD and make a backup copy and then place said copy on public display for anyone and everyone to access you are crossing the line. That line is basically a question of who has the distribution rights.
I love downloading and sharing music. It has made worlds of music available to me that I know that I would have never heard or heard of otherwise. I try hard to buy LPs and occasionally CDs of the stuff that really grabs me. I also go to shitloads of concerts/shows. Does this somehow negate the fact that I am breaking the law? Nope. Does it ease my conscience? Yep. I'm a big believer in civil disobedience in the face of irrational legislation and I'm a big beliver of putting as much money in the artist's hands as possible.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....


Registered: 09/07/04
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K-Tel records ruled....! 
NOT....
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: debianlinux]
#5378985 - 03/08/06 07:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
debianlinux said:
Quote:
DieCommie said: If you lose or damage your CD, you are expected to buy a new one, not download it. Making backup copies is no longer "fair use"
While I don not agree with this premise I do understand the logic.
You buy a CD and make a backup copy for your personal use that IS "fair use".
You buy a CD and make a backup copy and then place said copy on public display for anyone and everyone to access you are crossing the line. That line is basically a question of who has the distribution rights.
I love downloading and sharing music. It has made worlds of music available to me that I know that I would have never heard or heard of otherwise. I try hard to buy LPs and occasionally CDs of the stuff that really grabs me. I also go to shitloads of concerts/shows. Does this somehow negate the fact that I am breaking the law? Nope. Does it ease my conscience? Yep. I'm a big believer in civil disobedience in the face of irrational legislation and I'm a big beliver of putting as much money in the artist's hands as possible.
hey im not advocating that, thats the RIAA who says that. I agree you should be able to back it up.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: debianlinux]
#5378991 - 03/08/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah, I have to note that I go to a concert at least every other week. That is where musicians make their $ anyways.
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debianlinux
Myconerd - DBK



Registered: 12/09/02
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: DieCommie]
#5379000 - 03/08/06 07:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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i'm saying your reasoning is flawed. you are talking about 2 different things. there is making backups and there is distributing said backups.
Yes, I know the RIAA is attacking the basics of "fair use" and that is wrong. I just wanted you to understand that distribution is NOT fair use regardless of how easy it may be to rationalize.
In a perfect world only people who own a legit copy of music would download a backup; Much as I do with LPs I wish not to open.
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TheCow
Stranger

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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: debianlinux]
#5379007 - 03/08/06 07:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I only buy cd's of stuff that I cant find online. Recently I bought an Anton Webern cd that I couldnt find online, it has nothing to do with how much I like the band or how poor they are. And Id agree that Im probably stealing money from them, but I also never claimed to be a good guy.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: debianlinux]
#5379021 - 03/08/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
RIAA said:Presumably, consumers concerned with the ability to make back up copies would choose to purchase music from a service that allowed such copying. Even if CDs do become damaged, replacements are readily available at affordable prices.
now where is my reasoning flawed? im not trying to argue, i truly want to know.
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outerwave
shuffler ofmortal coils...


Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 92
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: Therapy]
#5379110 - 03/08/06 08:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Therapy said: I download music as a personal protest to the record labels' greed, and their pathetic business practices.
awwwe shit. i deal with this crap all day, so:
1) Big Labels are just that, interested in the dollar. they tend to sign bands that will sell (cause it is a buiness) to the huge demographic of 10-13 year old girls. if you fall into this catagory, all i can say is youth IS the time to rebel, so have at it. if you are not a 12 girl, then the majority of what Big Labels offer prolly shouldn't interest you and you should not have a beef with them for running a buisness. man's gotta eat and all.
2) labels range in size of the Conglomerate, of which there are four, to Bob 'n' Pete's Records in there mom's basement. so unless you are buying/stealing from the biggun', your stealing from poor Bob 'n' Pete. Indie labels, who are small enough to care, really don't have any money. they burn bright, do wonderful things, then die out leaving the owners in debt forever. rinse, wash, repeat. its a labor of love. Take 4AD records, been around since 1980, brought the world the Pixies (prolly their biggest export) as well as the best music EVER (imho). most cats can't even clear 30k a year either working for the label (after 20 years) or being signed to it.
3) no, artists do not NEED labels. we have the internet. but then again, the Label can't force the artist to sign. the artist did it because there was a $200k check next to the contract, and a million dollar budget to make all their dreams come true. not something you can get any other way. check out the free online music community. most people are amazed to get 1000 downloads. most of the worlds greatest artists would have been passed over and forgotten without Big Money. signing a developent deal and paying the artists way for years to write the greatest record ever requires money, if the genius artist had to flip burgers all day he prolly wouldn'y have the time or focus to make that classic album eventually. there are an infinite number of awesome bands, unfourtunatly without the money to make a proper webpage and record the fucking song (my job), most working stiffs would have to give up music to feed their families. it takes money to make money. unless you do folk music in seattle. in which case you just need your buddie's couch.
3) cost to make and album that doesn't suck: $10k to 1.5M. usually around $150k for small bands on major labels.
not counting that or promotion. when a small indie label makes a record, with out the promotion machine or big names to sell it. cd's cost ~$1.5 a piece for small/medium runs. label then has to slum it to a cd store themselves, selling for $6 a pop. cd store then sells it for $12. if you didn't want to walk into cd stores all salesman like and beg them to sell a few cd's of yours, you need a distributor. cd goes to distributor for $6, who has to store, ship, market the damn thing, selling it to the cd store for $10, who has to store it and hopefully sell it for $14.
seeing as a few thousand cd's is a lot for a medium sized indie label, and 1000 for a small one. that is $4000 for the small label. this has to pay for recording, which was prolly $10000, the band, which needs to eat and pay rent while working on the album, $1500, pay the folks who work for the label to make it all happen for $5/hour, 40hrs/week, for three people $2400. oh right, then that kid who designed the whole things only charged $200, but then there was the filing of a Doing Buisness As for the band and copywrites, another $400.
so, you make a grand total of NEGETIVE $10500. and you need to steal from these guys why?
"sure" you say, "i mean the digital model were you don't make cd's, but try to sell songs for $.99 (which ends of the same price) or if your really into loosing money, you'll sell mp3 albums for $5." more on this later, but it still takes money to make the tshirt, pay for the gas in the van to play the shows, pay the venue for the show because they always get their cut, regardless of if you sell any tickets or not. and more, starting the whole damn process anyway, leading to:
two last point, and there good ones:
even in the digital buiness model, making a record and and fancy webpage is great and not all that expensive in the scheme of things. BUT the ARTIST needs to rely on more than word of mouth to get people to bother to listen to, let alone purchase, their music in order to pay their rent and feed their tummies. and punks pirating their music anyway, i mean, it's already an mp3, so it's gonna get shared if you like it or not. promotion is stupid expensive. and all this money needs to come from somewhere, which is were the evil Label enters the picture to get the ball rolling. and labels loose money on 18/20 bands they sign. they can't hack it, and are fired. one of those 20 did alright for themselves, trying to make music that waasn't a pop copycat, or so you'd think (read below, best part). MAYBE the last arist does ok, makes a few bucks, maybe one in 50 ends up on mtv.
AWESOMEST POINT EVER THAT EVERYONE OVERLOOKS TILL YOUR IN IT:
you are not stealing from the label, but THE FUCKING BAND! remember that signing bonus, THE ARTIST HAS TO PAY BACK THE LABEL FOR EVERYTHING. Labels are like banks giving out loans. and none of this works in the bands favor unless you are on TRL.
Advance: $ 250,000 Manager's cut: $ 37,500 Legal fees: $ 10,000 Recording Budget: $ 155,500 Producer's advance: $ 50,000 Studio fee: $ 52,500 Drum, Amp, Mic and Phase "Doctors": $ 3,000 Recording tape: $ 8,000 Equipment rental: $ 5,000 Cartage and Transportation: $ 5,000 Lodging while in studio: $ 10,000 Catering: $ 3,000 Mastering: $ 10,000 Tape copies, reference CDs, shipping tapes, misc. expenses: $ 2,000 Album Artwork: $ 5,000 Promotional photo shoot and duplication: $ 2,000 Video budget: $ 31,000 Cameras: $ 8,000 Crew: $ 5,000 Processing and transfers: $ 3,000 Off-line: $ 2,000 On-line editing: $ 3,000 Catering: $ 1,000 Stage and construction: $ 3,000 Copies, couriers, transportation: $ 2,000 Director's fee: $ 4,000 Band fund: $ 15,000 New fancy professional drum kit: $ 5,000 New fancy professional guitars [2]: $ 3,000 New fancy professional guitar amp rigs [2]: $ 4,000 New fancy potato-shaped bass guitar: $ 1,000 New fancy bass amp: $ 1,000 Rehearsal space rental: $ 500 Big blowout party for their friends: $ 500 Tour expense [5 weeks]: $ 50,875 Bus: $ 25,000 Crew [3]: $ 7,500 Food and per diems: $ 7,875 Fuel: $ 3,000 Consumable supplies: $ 3,500 Wardrobe: $ 1,000 Promotion: $ 3,000 Tour gross income: $ 50,000 Booking Agent's cut: $ 7,500 Manager's cut: $ 7,500 Merchandising advance: $ 20,000 Manager's cut: $ 3,000 Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000 Publishing advance: $ 20,000 Manager's cut: $ 3,000 Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000 Record sales: 250,000 @ $12: $ 3,000,000 Gross retail revenue Royalty [13% of 90% of retail]: 250,000 @ $12: $ 351,000 Less advance: $ 250,000 Producer's points [3% less $50,000 advance]: $ 40,000 Promotional budget: $ 25,000 Recoupable buyout from previous label: $ 50,000 Net royalty: $ -14,000
Now, on the other hand, let's look at the Record company income:
Record wholesale price $6.50 x 250,000 $ 1,625,000 gross income Artist Royalties: $ 351,000 Deficit from royalties: $ 14,000 Costs of manufacturing, packaging and distribution @ $2.20 per record: $ 550,000 Label's gross profit: $ 7l0,000
The Balance Sheet: This is how much each player got paid at the end of the game:
Record company: $ 710,000 Producer: $ 90,000 Manager: $ 51,000 Studio: $ 52,500 Previous label: $ 50,000 Booking Agent: $ 7,500 Lawyer: $ 12,000 Band member net income each: $ 781.25
MORAL: you are not 'sending' a message to a band that you are a fan of. you fuck the label, the label fucks the band and fires them. sympathy or not. now this band YOU were a fan of and trying SEND A MESSAGE to, goes home with a million in debt, has to file bankrupy, looses his wife, who takes the kids, and ends up painting houses forever and sluming it in an apartment since his credit is shit and he can't get a real house.
THEY ABOVE BALANCE SHEETS are for 250000 units sold. this is EXTREMELY small to a big label. that band you are a fan of on a Big Label, prolly got a million dollar signing bonus, spent $750k in the studio, made 2-3 videos for 2million a pop. and still has to work with the income above.
thank you and good day.
PS, i am not an anti-mp3 nazi, i love em, have found some of my all time favor tunes using the old napster. but these bands are not big, and i understand the impact of my choice. hell yea i make every effort to support them, go to the show if i can, buy the cd at a show (band gets more money that way).
i really REALLY care about this because this is what i do. i am not only a music fan, but it and the shitty buisness around it are my job, my life, and those involved in the nightmare are my friends. would they do it again after being fucked? prolly, its that highroller rock'n'roll lifestyle that gives you something to tell you grand kids, but it is a rough rough life to deal with the fame once, then have it yanked away.
there is a statistic, even bands that had number one video and charttopping songs in the decade(s) past, when bands made more money anyway, are sorry, sorry individuals when you look at they were left with after greatness. other than people with 10+ staying power like clapton, kiss, new order, still can pay their bills, mostly because they still work. bands get money, they by cars (or in a friends case, a $50000 snakeskin suit in Rio, with money from the advance). meaning he had to pay it back , and doesn't have the dough.
-------------------- take care, outerwave
Edited by outerwave (03/08/06 08:37 PM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: outerwave]
#5379117 - 03/08/06 08:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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those poor starving artists. we should donate money to help them pay the bills.
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Burke Dennings
baby merchant

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 81,641
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#5379120 - 03/08/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Never heard of K-Tel records before.
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debianlinux
Myconerd - DBK



Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 8,334
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: DieCommie]
#5379123 - 03/08/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: If you lose or damage your CD, you are expected to buy a new one, not download it. Making backup copies is no longer "fair use"
no problem. i'm not trying to flame either.
the above quote is confusing the issue.
i take offense to the RIAA expecting me to buy new replacements for damaged CDs as opposed to using a self-made backup copy..
OTOH, I am inclined to agree that myself or any other p2p file sharer does not have the distribution rights to the music. there's the old adage that downloading isn't illegal but uploading sure is.
IOW, it may be my fair use right to create a backup copy of my CD but it is not within your fair use rights to distribute that backup copy to me.
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outerwave
shuffler ofmortal coils...


Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 92
Loc: on breaking ice...
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: debianlinux]
#5379130 - 03/08/06 08:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
debianlinux said: Yes, I know the RIAA is attacking the basics of "fair use" In a perfect world only people who own a legit copy of music would download a backup; Much as I do with LPs I wish not to open.
you are correct sir (and i'm sure you know that).
copying or 'backing up' IS fair use. got the big city lawyer to back me up. but when you get into making things into mp3s, which again is FARI USE for your portable mp3 player. the ease at which those small files are intentionally, unintentionally, or even KNOWINGLY distributed is what RIAA is after. will they hammer you about it either way, sure, it is more about sending a message to people. can they make bullshit stick, hell yea, this is the justice system were talking about, more money=winning cases. there is law or precident for everything going both ways, fancier suited guy tends gets to pick which one applies, and that he golfs with the judges brother doesn't hurt.
-------------------- take care, outerwave
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: debianlinux]
#5379134 - 03/08/06 08:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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fair enough. it certainly is murkey water, and Im not gonna try to wade through it.
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outerwave
shuffler ofmortal coils...


Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 92
Loc: on breaking ice...
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: how much music do you have? [Re: DieCommie]
#5379156 - 03/08/06 08:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
those poor starving artists. we should donate money to help them pay the bills.
are you being fucking serious?!?
that i or any begining artist could move a QUARTER MILLION copies is brilliant! that they even broke even is AWESOME. cept i don't think thats the kind of band the guy who is 'rebelling and sending messages' was referring to. he should PM an example band and i'll let you know how much money they make/loose.
i am kinda riled up from posting all that, but i'm currently pretty offended/pissed that you said that. burn bright and live short, good time, it can be a wonderful thing to fill your life with memories, or your better off with a long walk/short bridge scenario after you do.
added:
i'm still trying to make sense of this. i mean, big bands on big labels, they should forced to pay charity for living out their wishes and being in luxery for it. but these cats tend to be the commercial pocket pussies of the Label, and everyone is happy.
i don't work with people that big, but guys struggling to leave the indelible mark on human conciousness. and make sumptin' pertty while they're at it. these guys ARE more than struggling, its a loosing battle trying to pay your way. but they do it to give YOU/US that little 5 minute something that makes you bob your head and feel something in your chest. that or it was all the mushies you just ate.
-------------------- take care, outerwave
Edited by outerwave (03/08/06 08:43 PM)
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....


Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Quote:
PLUR, LOL said: Never heard of K-Tel records before.
They did the crappy compilaton albums back in the late 70s - early 80s.....
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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