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 carbonhoots
old hand
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
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 Overlay Understated 
#537463 - 02/01/02 01:14 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I figure I must of misunderstood overlay.
I used to colonize my casings till I could see the first signs of mycelium. This would lead to whole spots of white on the surface by the time fruiting occured.
Now I'm not even letting the casings show any mycelium before changing them over to fruiting.
Seems to yield more overall, especially the second flush. Might take a little longer though...it's worth it.
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-I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me
CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES
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 Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,157
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 Re: Overlay Understated [Re: carbonhoots]
#537521 - 02/01/02 03:55 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Exactly,This is a common missunderstanding here at the boards on how muixh the casing should be colonized before initiating pinning - NOT AT ALL ! !
As you said, the casing surface shouldn?t colonize, only the inside of the casing should be permeated by the mycelium for casing still serve as a water absorbing and water providing layer.
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HisStudent
enthusiast
Registered: 02/01/02
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 Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Anno]
#537586 - 02/01/02 07:44 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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How would one know if the inside of the casing is colonized without some kind of visual indication?
just wondering.....
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I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of our solar system.
- Jack Handey
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TheCaptain
addict
Registered: 09/04/01
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Re: Overlay Understated *DELETED* [Re: HisStudent]
#537611 - 02/01/02 08:19 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Post deleted by TheCaptain
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"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,157
Loc: my room
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: TheCaptain]
#537665 - 02/01/02 09:31 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Paul Stamets and J.S Chilton: The Mushroom Cultivator
CHAPTER IX:
STRATEGIES FOR MUSHROOM FORMATION (PINHEAD INITIATION)
Excerpt
Basic Pinning Strategy
Mushrooms fruit indoors in response to much the same conditions that trigger fruiting in the wild. Several environmental factors, working in combination, provide an ideal environment in which mushrooms flourish. Most, if not all cultivated mushrooms fruit at lower temperatures than the optimum for the growth of mycelium. Usually, a drop in temperature is accompanied by rain or an increase in humidity. Water is essential for the absorption of nutrients by the mycelium. And vaporous water creates the humid microclimate that is so critical for the developing primordia. Primordia have a low tolerance to CO2 and need ample fresh air. And while the mycelium has no requirement for light, many species need light to initiate pinheads and to mature into healthy mushrooms. Mushrooms form only when there is a coincidence of all these factors. Cultivators create an artificial environment that prolongs these optimum conditions so that mushrooms are given the best possible environment in which to grow.
Primordia formation strategies are well defined for species now under cultivation. These procedures are similar in their approach and differ only in certain environmental requirements. Given that the substrate has sufficient nutrients, the interaction of water, humidity, temperature, fresh air, CO2 and light all play determining roles in the fructification process. (In some cases, specific microorganisms must be present before fruiting can occur). The modification of any one of these factors beyond the fruiting requirements can inhibit or stop the process. Hence, the cultivator must have precise control over conditions within the growing room if this critical phase is to be carried out successfully.
PRIMORDIA FORMATION PROCEDURES
Agaricus brunnescens culture illustrates the interplay of environmental factors in pinhead initiation. It serves as a useful model for setting primordia in many species, especially those using a casing layer. In each of the following stages, the main considerations are highlighted and then discussed in detail. Although Agaricus does not require light, and since most cultivated mushrooms do, this requirement has been listed as the last parameter.
Stage I: Preparation
Following its application, the casing is conditioned to allow even mycelial growth into it. Once mycelial growth is well established, the casing layer microclimate and the growing room are carefully managed to meet the following requirements.
1. The casing layer is at optimum moisture capacity.
2. The casing layer surface is rough and porous.
3. The relative humidity of the growing room's air is 95%.
4. The substrate is incubated in total darkness.
During the casing colonization period, the casing layer is being conditioned for pinhead initiation. Gradually, the moisture content is brought up to the optimum and a microclimate with high relative humidity is carefully maintained. Water in the casing moves by capillary action to the surface where it is drawn into the air by evaporation. This constant movement slowly depletes the casing of the moisture needed to protect pinhead development. Therefore, in conjunction with an optimum casing moisture level, the relative humidity of the room must be held at 95%. Lower humidities must be accompanied by light but regular waterings. The higher the humidity (rH), the less water will be lost to evaporation.
Given optimum moisture conditions in and directly above the casing layer, the next step is to prepare the casing surface. Whether by initial application or by ruffling at a later time, the casing surface should be rough and open - with minute mountains and valleys. A rough open casing has more surface area where pinheads can form, provides a humid environment conducive to that formation and allows the diffusion of metabolic gases.
Stage II: Environmental Transition?The Prelude to Setting Primordia
Pinhead initiation techniques should begin when the mycelium reaches the valleys of the casing surface. Once the mycelium is clearly established in the valleys, the cultivator can begin the first steps leading to the setting of pinheads. Within this one to two day period, the
1. Substrate and air temperatures are lowered to the fruiting range.
2. The humidity is maintained at the 95% level.
3. The carbon dioxide content of the room is reduced by the introduction of fresh air.
4. The room is lighted on a 12 hour on/off cycle.
Mycelium breaking through the casing surface early should be lightly sprinkled with moist casing. Uneven growth through the casing layer is usually an indication of a casing with irregular depths. By "patching" shallow areas, an even mycelial spread is assured. Note that the more even the distribution of the mycelium in the valleys of the casing's surface, the more even the pin-set and the greater the first and second flushes.
The exact time for initiation varies with the strain and according to the experience of the individual grower. Some strains continue to grow vegetatively for a period after the initial temperature shock whereas others stop immediately. For this reason, some cultivators initiate when 20% of the valleys show mycelial growth while others wait until 90% are run through with mycelium. Normally within 12-48 hours from the time the mycelium is first visible in the valleys, the initiation sequence is started.
The first step in the pinhead initiation process is to lower the substrate and air temperature from the mycelial growth optimum to the fruiting range. This temperature "shock" is accomplished by ventilation with a large volume of cool fresh air, thereby lowering the room's temperature to a point 5-20? below the optimum for spawn running. (For Agaricus brunnescens, this would mean dropping air temperature from 70 ?F. to 64 ?F.). Whatever the air temperature may be, the bed temperature is normally several degrees warmer. The length of time needed to affect this change is determined by the total volume of substrate and the temperature of the air being introduced. Within 48 hours, the substrate temperature should fall to fruiting temperatures, effectively slowing vegetative growth. This change signals to the mycelium that it is time to fruit.
Fresh air also removes high concentrations of carbon dioxide and other metabolic gases from the room. Since Agaricus brunnescens does not pin properly at CO2 concentrations above 2000 ppm, lowering the carbon dioxide content of the room's air to under 2000 ppm is critical. The inhibitory effect of carbon dioxide on mushroom formation gives Agaricus growers a high degree of control over the pinning process. Not until carbon dioxide is removed will pinheads form. If carbon dioxide levels remain high, the mycelium will totally cover the casing surface, a condition called overlay.
The mycelial mat formed by overlay makes the casing impervious to water and produces few pinheads. Overlay also occurs if the casing surface is too dry, the humidity (rH) is too low or the air temperature remains too high. Overlay can be counteracted by patching, but the cause must be diagnosed and carefully corrected if the culture is to be revived. Few flushes will be as great from a casing with overlay as from a casing properly managed.
Stage III: Primordia Formation (Knotting)
Once substrate temperatures have been lowered and CO2 levels have been reduced, primordia will begin to form. Maintain:
1. A constant fresh air supply to remove metabolic gases, and CO2 at levels less than 1000 ppm.
2. A constant temperature in the growing room that is within the fruiting range.
3. A relative humidity of 95%.
4. A 12 hour on/off light cycle.
The combination of temperature drop, high humidity and reduction of metabolic gases by a constant supply of fresh air now provides an environment conducive to pinhead formation. These parameters should be held constant until the pins are set. Any abrupt changes in temperature or humidity will be harmful to primordial growth. Pinhead initials form in the humid valleys of the casing layer and are visible as small knots of mycelium. This is the earliest stage of fruiting. Within five days these knots enlarge into small mounds or buttons that soon differentiate into mushrooms.
Due to slowed mycelial growth in the cooled substrate, carbon dioxide evolution is greatly reduced. Consequently, the fresh air supply can be moderated to the minimum level necessary to maintain 1000 ppm of carbon dioxide. At this time, oversupply of fresh air can lead to high evaporation rates and excessive drying. The humidity should never be allowed to fall below 90%. If dry air becomes a problem, a light misting of the casing surface, two to five times daily, should keep the microclimate moist. In fact, some growers knock down the mycelium with a forceful watering on the first day of initiation. Others mist daily as a standard practice. However, once pinning has begun, any forceful watering will kill a number of developing pins, and damage others. Given sufficient casing moisture and a high humidity, these watering practices become unnecessary.
Stage IV: Pinhead Development
After the pinheads have grown to pea size (3-5 mm.), their further development is primarily dependent on air temperature and relative humidity. To insure that they mature into healthy mushrooms, the
1. Air temperature is held constant within the fruiting range.
2. Relative humidity is lowered to 85-92%.<
3. A constant fresh air supply with CO2 below 2000 ppm
4. A 12 hour on/off light cycle
The humidity is lowered to 85-92%, thereby increasing the evaporation rate, an essential requirement for pinhead maturation. If humidity remains too high, pinhead development will be retarded. The easiest way to reduce humidity is to raise the air temperature by 1 -2 ?F. or to increase air movement within the room. Under no circumstances should pockets of stagnant air be allowed to form. Evaporation is negligible in stagnant air pockets which are also excellent breeding grounds for mushroom pathogens.
At this time, a slightly higher level of carbon dioxide is desirable (in the 1500-2000 ppm range) and fresh air can be cut back accordingly. Given proper CO2 levels, and sufficient evaporation, the pins continue to develop. The exact rate of growth depends on the air temperature in the room. Work done by Lambert (1938) has shown that a pinhead of Agaricus brunnescens with a diameter of 2 millimeters fully develops into a mature mushroom in twenty-two days at 50 ?F., in ten days at 60 ?F. and in six days at 70 ?F. Although mushrooms develop more quickly at 70 ?F., overall yields diminish. Optimum temperature for cropping in Agaricus brunnescens is 62-64?F.
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vatoloco
Puppet Hunter -DBK
Registered: 01/30/02
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Anno]
#537896 - 02/01/02 02:53 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: vatoloco]
#537928 - 02/01/02 03:29 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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You should not be posting copyrighted material without permission. How much money did you just steal from the proper author in lost sales on his book? Shame on you!
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Just another spore in the wind.
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TheCaptain
addict
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Seuss]
#537935 - 02/01/02 03:39 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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$20 says Anno IS Stamets. 
thanks for the info!
--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."
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pleezr
fuct
Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 1,708
Loc: NW
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: carbonhoots]
#537947 - 02/01/02 03:50 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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so, are you saying to case and put in fruiting conditions immediatly? or incubate and let colonize but not enough to see? This is very interesting. I had my first attemps at casing and I got overlay so bad that my casing beacame matted.
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pleezr
"Tell me about the fucking golf shoes!!"
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Syd_barret
The Greatest
Registered: 10/27/01
Posts: 306
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: pleezr]
#537955 - 02/01/02 04:11 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wow, I never knew that was the case..... I always thought you should let the myco grow up onto the casing surface..
So Anno what would be a cool rule of thumb?
ONce some myco is poking up in some spots, cover them and then innitiate pins?
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,157
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Seuss]
#538016 - 02/01/02 05:41 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I didn?t steal a penny. I?m actually convinced that this will convince more people to buy this great book. How should be I stealing money by posting this btw? If you look at the amazon they even began to post excerpts of books with every book they sell. Think about it before posting such stupid accusations.
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Syd_barret
The Greatest
Registered: 10/27/01
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Anno]
#538021 - 02/01/02 05:50 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well I think he was just joking around Anno.. (at least I hope)
Yes, but I am sure Amazon asks permission before they do so.
Did you?
You prolly didn't steal anything
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,157
Loc: my room
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Syd_barret]
#538043 - 02/01/02 06:12 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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>Did you?
Off course not.
But did you think about why Amazon asks for permision and why the authors (or their publishers) allow it?
To boost the sales off course!
I know a neighbous? oncle?s parrot who owns an electronic copy of the whole book incuding pictures and I wonder what he thinks about putting the whole book online, since parrots can?t be sued for violation of copyrights. If he decides to do so I will express my dissagreement since I belive that people should buy this book and support the authors. They did a great job on this book and it?s worth each and every penny of the 29.95$ (seen for 25.94$ including shipping ! !)
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Under_net
enthusiast
Registered: 12/08/01
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Loc: kentucky
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Syd_barret]
#538057 - 02/01/02 06:28 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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He's right. Ive been wanting to buy that book for a while anyways.
Anyways, that was a bit more complex of an answer that I was expecting, though still quite good info.
I didnt really see that the conditions in the picture were dicussed in that article. From what I read I would aither
A). set the temp to 70degrees and around 90% humidity or
B) cover the high spots and proceed to step A)
I noticed that the spread of myclium wasnt totally even
does anyone think i should lightly recover the areas that have popped up?
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Syd_barret
The Greatest
Registered: 10/27/01
Posts: 306
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Anno]
#538061 - 02/01/02 06:30 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, of course to boost their sales, but by you posting this info that may have lead someone not to purchase the book because they already have the information that they wanted/needed.
Anyways, it's pretty idiotic to think you made them lose a penny, but it is the case.
I don't think Stamets would give a shit, anyways
Please answer my questions its like 2-3 posts up ^^
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jokerGD
interestedindividual
Registered: 10/26/01
Posts: 284
Loc: Earth
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Seuss]
#538066 - 02/01/02 06:36 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Seuss, ur a jack ass
Anno would only be stealing "text" if he had not cited the work where the text came from. He clearly said THE MUSHROOM CULTIVATOR BY PAUL STAMENTS -- "...."
That's called CITING A work and not stealing shit.
-j
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Anno
Experimenter
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Posts: 24,157
Loc: my room
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Syd_barret]
#538071 - 02/01/02 06:45 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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To quote Stamets:
"... For this reason, some cultivators initiate when 20% of the valleys show mycelial growth while others wait until 90% are run through with mycelium. Normally within 12-48 hours from the time the mycelium is first visible in the valleys, the initiation sequence is started.... "
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Syd_barret
The Greatest
Registered: 10/27/01
Posts: 306
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Anno]
#538106 - 02/01/02 07:38 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ahh Ok, thanks a bunch.
Actually that doesnt matter, I still think it is technically illegal to do so without permission..
If all you had to do was cite shit alot of things would go wrong.
I may be wrong.. but..
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Syd_barret
The Greatest
Registered: 10/27/01
Posts: 306
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Syd_barret]
#538107 - 02/01/02 07:41 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Actually No, I am sorry I think I am wrong..
Copyright laws are a bit wierd if you have ever read them in the technical language..
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,157
Loc: my room
Last seen: 13 days, 15 hours
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Syd_barret]
#538109 - 02/01/02 07:42 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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>I still think it is technically illegal to do so without permission..
Hell, off course it is !
But is it moraly wrong and does it hurt anybody?
Hell, no....
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Roadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod
Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,674
Loc: Montana
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 Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Anno]
#538114 - 02/01/02 08:09 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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You tell them Anno !
Besides....growing certain shrooms are illegal...if you want to get all legal now.
geezzzz
So what if Anno posts a few excerpts from Stamet's book.
Like they are going to try and take him to court....lolz
Keep quoting the guy....Hell this site probably sells more books for the guy than a average advertisement does....just by word of mouth.
I wouldn't have known about the damn book if i hadn't seen posts about it in here.
Oh and yes Anno's quotes and talking about the The Mushroom Cultivator by Paul Stamets and J.S Chilton....is the reason i bought one....lolz
I'd like to see a poll of how many people have bought the book cause of seeing posts about it here in the Shroomery.....lolz
Most of the polls in the poll forum are just plain stupid.....just my opinion.
--------------------
Laterz, Road
Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!
Brainiac said:
PM the names with  on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.
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Syd_barret
The Greatest
Registered: 10/27/01
Posts: 306
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Roadkill]
#538118 - 02/01/02 08:20 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Since when were we discussing morals?
I was simply speaking off the legal aspects..
In that case your morals are your opinion.
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pleezr
fuct
Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 1,708
Loc: NW
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Roadkill]
#538137 - 02/01/02 09:02 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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good point Roadkill! its not like the fruit of our labor is legal.
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pleezr
"Tell me about the fucking golf shoes!!"
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Syd_barret
The Greatest
Registered: 10/27/01
Posts: 306
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: pleezr]
#538148 - 02/01/02 09:17 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well the board does advise you not to be so blatant and flat out say I CULTIVATE ILLEGAL MUSHROOMS!!
Such as my monkeys unlces pets dogs fish did so and so..
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,157
Loc: my room
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Roadkill]
#538397 - 02/02/02 05:27 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Syd_barret
The Greatest
Registered: 10/27/01
Posts: 306
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Anno]
#538438 - 02/02/02 08:46 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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You should have added an option of already reading some excerpts and planning on buying it at a future time. This is the one I would choose.
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,157
Loc: my room
Last seen: 13 days, 15 hours
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Syd_barret]
#538502 - 02/02/02 10:36 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Then option 3 is the right one to choose.
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Syd_barret
The Greatest
Registered: 10/27/01
Posts: 306
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Anno]
#538534 - 02/02/02 11:21 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well in a sense, but I have already read excerpts and I have been convinced for some time that I wanted it. Just haven't got around to it.
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Syd_barret
The Greatest
Registered: 10/27/01
Posts: 306
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Syd_barret]
#538538 - 02/02/02 11:23 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ahh option 4 is the one for me.
Didn't read it.
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Azure
old hand
Registered: 12/31/98
Posts: 469
Loc: California, USA
Last seen: 21 years, 1 month
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Anno]
#538548 - 02/02/02 11:39 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Anno, I don't know what you're talking about...Maybe I misinterpreted what you said...but It's completely legal to quote any information that is public, as long as the author is cited(at least in the US-I don't know how Europe works). It is illegal to take the author's words and consider them yours. This is known as plagerism, which is has stiff penalties in the US.
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,157
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Azure]
#538552 - 02/02/02 11:44 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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But if this is true, one could put the whole book online ony if one quoted the source
?
I?m not so sure...
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Syd_barret
The Greatest
Registered: 10/27/01
Posts: 306
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Anno]
#538584 - 02/02/02 12:28 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeh, plagerism laws are a bit wierd...
I think if you are displaying info from a book for public use (like this forum)
Then it is technically illegal, because if it was Ok to copy down someone elses work as long as you cited it.. heh authors would lose money
Anyways, I am not going to talk about this anymore, pretty pointless.
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Anonymous
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Syd_barret]
#538681 - 02/02/02 03:13 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think Stamets would encourage the posting of his information on this message board.
It is after all, the Bible of Mushroom Cultivation.. and posting his methods only benefits everyone.
Furthermore, it is a win/win scenario because the newbie cultivator is able to get a glimpse of insight into the master's mind, which only encourages them to BUY the book and have it all.
Hell, its free advertising for Stamets.
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Azure
old hand
Registered: 12/31/98
Posts: 469
Loc: California, USA
Last seen: 21 years, 1 month
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Anno]
#538722 - 02/02/02 04:05 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, you can DEFINITELY take chunks out, no doubt about that. I suppose the question is, how large of a chunk?
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cookiewhore
enthusiast
Registered: 01/03/02
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Seuss]
#538742 - 02/02/02 04:39 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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He properly quoted the book.
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,157
Loc: my room
Last seen: 13 days, 15 hours
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: cookiewhore]
#539497 - 02/03/02 05:48 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yea, the only question is, how long can a quote be to still be valid as a quote.
Otherwise I could quote the whole book....
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felix
Registered: 01/20/00
Posts: 10,503
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Re: Overlay Understated [Re: Anno]
#539518 - 02/03/02 06:24 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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you can quote the whole book as long as you give proper credit to the author. citation is not illegal. you did not break any copyright laws. copyright laws protect the author from someone stealing his work without giving credit to him.
--------------------
Real botanists laugh at HPS systems, we do however use high pressure sodium in the parking lot. - artthug
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