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OfflineWronguy
Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 4,450
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please.
    #5370481 - 03/06/06 11:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well I been tripping off and on for the last 7 years or so. I ran into a run of really bad trips, 3 to be exact, about 4 months ago. I took way too much trying to reach that level 5 trip and couldn't handle it. I had 3 bad trips back to back over a period of 3 weeks.

The trips were caused by anxiety and the expectation that the bad feelings would come back to haunt me and they did. When I would trip I would be anticipating those bad feelings and in essence cause them to resurface. It was horrible times. Okay, I figured I needed a good break from tripping to sort things out and get over the feelings I was having. I had a gift and abused that gift chasing the high.

Four months go by and I decide it's time to give it a go with my Sis, who is an experienced tripper and great sitter. I knew I needed to slowly wade back into it so I take a mild dose of 1 gram. Things are going okay but I find myself waiting for the effects to come on and bad feelings start to overcome me again. The trip is very mild and more than manageable but has it's ups and downs. When I think everything is okay, bad feelings take over me and a feeling of anxiety take place.

I try again 3 weeks later and find that the same feelings keep coming into my head and the trip is now just killing time waiting for things to normalize. My Sister and I begin discussing why the trips are going bad and I think we came up with a theory that may explain a lot. That theory is time.

We believe that because I still have a cognizant memory of the bad trips, not just the actual memory but being to able to recreate the feelings, that my trips will always play out badly. What I mean is I'm not able to just remember that I had a bad trip, I'm also able to vividly remember what it feels like to be in a bad trip. Example, you have a memory of something someone said to you that pissed you off a year ago. You can remember that what that person said pissed you off, but you can't duplicate that anger, just the memory of being angry.

I can remember quite a few things that have made me angry or sad over the years but I cannot duplicate that feeling or be placed in that state because too much time has passed. We believe that enough time needs to pass so I can no longer invoke an emotional response to my bad trips, but rather have a distant memory of them. I'll always remember that I did not like the way they made me feel but I believe I can forget the emotional experience, let go if you will.

I'm not the best at articulating what I need to convey here so I hope you catch my drift. I would like to hear from some of the more experienced trippers here, especially those who have overcome those really bad experiences. I know a lot of you will say to just let go but that's a lot easier said than done, especially when I have such a vivid memory of the experience.

Thank you all in advance for any insight you can offer. Take care.


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Offlinedoesntmattermuch
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: Wronguy]
    #5370732 - 03/06/06 12:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

hey man im not experienced but im starting to have the same kinda thing the last 2 trips i had werent exactly good and the last one i got trapped in my head for most of the trip although i guess trapped isnt the right word when your tripping is it. anyway im not sure what the way to get over it is i think alot of it is you just need to stay really calm and mellow and try to just let things take their course if you start having bad feeling just try to remember nothing bad will happen, maybe try some meditation or something although im pretty sure thats what caused me to loose my shit last time but i think the main thing is just staying calm and trying to keep your head on your shoulders so to speak atleast untill your over the bad feelings


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: doesntmattermuch]
    #5370858 - 03/06/06 01:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'm just curious - what thoughts/feelings are making the trips 'bad trips' for you?

While there is the factor of expecting a bad trip - having those feelings come back, and then getting anxious about them. There is also the possibility that thoughts/feelings/issues are coming to surface that you are having a hard time dealing with - and you may need to face them.

However - I'm not sure how much this next bit will be able to help you, as its not relating to tripping - but, a similar 'feeling'.

About 3 years ago, in my 1st year of University, I started to suffer from anxiety attacks. It stemmed from getting mono in 1st semester, missing about 2 months of classes, failing a few of them. Once I started going back to class, I started to have a constant fear of falling behind, not being able to catch up. I'd start to get anxiety attacks during class.

Eventually, things got so bad - that even the thought of going to a class could trigger an anxiety attack. It wasnt so much the thought of going to class that as the anxiety attack - it was the anticipation of getting an anxiety attack. It was 'the fear of an anxiety attack was triggering an anxiety attack'.

and then this snowballed into failing classes, dropping others, a short run at thearpy, and eventually switching schools and majors :P

To me - it sounds like the fear of having a bad trip, is what is leading you to having a bad trip. Much like the fear of an anxiety attack, is what was causing me to have an anxiety attack.

Now, how did I deal with this?

a: a short bit of therapy. This helped a bit, but not much
b: addressing the 'root' issues that were triggering the anxiety attacks
c: learning to manage the anxiety

Ways that I managed the anxiety

- realize when the feelings were coming and recognize them
- identify the source of the feelings, and analyze them - what is causing them? why are they being caused? is there anything I can do about this?
- music
- meditation

Quite often, if I felt an anxiety attack coming on - even if I was in a middle of a lecture. Instead of letting it consume me and I'd end up running out of the classroom feeling like I'm about to vomit. I'd stop, put on my walkman, and zone-out for about 5 mins and do some deep breathing to relax myself, and face the issues that were causing the anxiety instead of running away from them.

Dunno, I just see some parallels between your bad trips, and my anxiety in the past - maybe how I dealt with my anxiety could help you in dealing with the bad trips.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: Wronguy]
    #5370891 - 03/06/06 01:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Please don't take this the wrong way...but most of my negative trips are caused by negativity in my sober life. 

You still have not mentioned what exactly turns the trip "bad" for you. 

But you know what?  You are the only one (not the trip) that cares about that label.  You should stop thinking of your trips as "good" or "bad."  That is a surefire way to get caught in the cycle you are in. 

A trip is a trip.  It's an experience.  Whether it's positive or negative truly depends on how you choose to manage that experience. 

My opinion is that you are too judgemental towards your trips.  You need to accept them as they come, stop attaching your paltry human labels to an experience that defies language. 

Your goal when tripping should be to simply EXPERIENCE.  Good/bad?  It doesn't matter.  Just experience it, go with the flow.  If you start thinking "Oh, I hope I'll have a good trip this time," that automatically placed the EQUAL POSSIBLITY that you will have a negative trip, or as you say "bad" trip. 

There is positive and negative energy that you encounter during a trip.  But it's all the same energy.  It's all the same state of mind, you just have to remove your human rationalizations of what's "comfortable" for you. 

GO WITH THE EXPERIENCE.  That's all the advice I can give.  Good?  Bad?  Who gives a shit.  Just take it as it comes, make the most with what you're given.  Positive?  Negative?  If you relax, smile, stay calm and remember that life is all the same trip (even when you're not tripping) things will go smoother for you while you are in that drug induced state of mind. 

It also sounds like you have some post traumatic stress left over from when you were trying to reach level 5.  That's normal, and I can tell you that my first 4-5 trips after my "BIG HORRIFIC TRIP" *were* challenging.  If I had clung to labels I would have considered them "bad."  They were not enjoyable. 

I kept tripping, because I knew something in my mindset would have to change if I were to continue using them for the purpose I intended to use them for.  (self empowerment/betterment growth) I take shrooms to challenge my self and my character.  You can bet that whenever I have a challenging or difficult trip, I examine the experience closely, to see just what I was trying to tell myself.  Sure shrooms are awesome, but it's only a catalyst for the magic of spirit (you). 

It all boils down to your motivation, but if you cling to the mentality of good vs bad, I believe you will always have the idea of "OMG I hope I don't have a bad trip" in the back of your mind, which may in fact cause one for you if things aren't going perfectly. (i.e. = good) 

Say no to good vs bad.  Think of every trip as simply an experience that may (or may not) challenge you, and if that happens, ALRIGHT! :smile:  That's okay, nothing to fear, because that means you have just been given opportunity to examine your deeper self, and nobody should be afraid of themselves. 

Obviously, you are trying to give yourself a message by suffering a string of unpleasant experiences.  What is it?  Why don't you think about it?  Is your sober life as fulfilled as you like?  What is your set/setting when you trip and your dose?  When your tripping what tends to trigger anxiety during your trips?  Just what are your unpleasant experiences really trying to show you?  What can you learn from them? 

Those are the questions I would ask...if it were me...


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: Wronguy]
    #5370938 - 03/06/06 01:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Your theory is very interesting, to be honest, I had never even thought before about how long it takes me to remember having a feeling vs. actually remembering what it felt like.

I think that you have a very good point, and it very well could work, however, I would be concerned for you because the more time you spend away from shrooms, I think the build up to your next dose will be bigger than it needs to be, and even the slightest hints of a bad trip will have the potential to be crushing.  You will already be filled with anxiety because you put off tripping for so long, and at the first hint of discomfort, you could easily be confronted with thoughts of disappointment, loss, being stuck in a perpetual run of bad trips, etc.

Just to throw in my 2 cents, I would recommend tripping after a normal amount of time instead.  You sounded like once a month or so had been normal for you at some point, and I wouldn't wait much longer than that.  The key, however, is to remember why it is you enjoy shrooms so much in the first place.  After all, who doesn't truly enjoy the way mushrooms let them see the world?  And I don't mean just spiritual insight, I mean simple things, how bright the color green is, how complex and beautiful the most simple interactions can be, and not just between people, between the pitcher of water and your glass, or for that matter, why you even identify the glass you drink from as your own.

Remembering what shrooms can show you, and seeking those beautiful images and thoughts out, is a much more powerful tool for warding off a bad trip than simply "hoping you've waited long enough".  Try and choose a setting that's condusive to this sort of activity.  A park, or even a zoo or museum (provided your dose is low), can all work wonders for guaranteeing a beautiful trip.  After all, what thought loop isn't broken by a sudden, surprising infusion or color, or a quiet reflection on what a miracle it is that any two objects in this universe can even interact at all.

:mushroom2: Happy Shrooming :mushroom2:


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Offlinefreebass
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: Economist]
    #5370964 - 03/06/06 01:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i too have anxious tendencies when i comes to tripping and even smoking weed sometimes if the setting is too chaotic. i wish i could offer some advice other than meditation and searching for the root of anxiety, but i do have a question for Kaniz: have you tripped since your anxiety episodes, and if not do you plan to? i am currently facing a similar problem.. sorry, not trying to hijack this thread or anything, just thought it is in order given the subject..


--------------------
FREEDOM ACROSS THE UNIVERSE!!!


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: freebass] * 1
    #5371122 - 03/06/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, these anxiety attacks started about 3-4 years ago, long before I did *ANY* drug. I've only been doing drugs for the last two and a half years or so - including psychedelics.

If anything, I have found that psychedelics have actually helped me deal and cope with my anxiety.

Alot of people have said 'you shouldn't trip if you've suffered from depression/anxiety' - however, 99.9% of that stems from issues relating to school and are in a pretty isolated portion of my life.

However, I recall at the start of the semester - I was starting to get really bad anxiety attacks again (they only seem to happen during the school year), and actually went and got medication for it from my doctor (I got Ativan).

Was using Ativan for a month or two - and still tripping during this time on both mushrooms and LSD.

Then, on one LSD trip - fear and anxiety started to play a HUGE role in my trip - however, not in a 'bad' trip way.

To give a bit of back-story to the trip : was at a company event with co-workers that I also happen to be friends with. Company event ends, we come back to my place - and decide to drop LSD.

For one person, it was their first time on LSD - everyone else were experienced trippers. Anywho, about an hour after the LSD kicks in - the one guy starts to get really horny and decides he wants to go home so he can get laid.

So, I offer to walk him home just to make sure he gets home OK. Chill out at his apartment for a bit, smoke a joint - talk/etc. He seems to be doing all right so I leave to return to my apartment.

On the walk home - I start to analyze myself and my anxiety. I end up sitting down on a park bench for some time and really doing some heavy self-reflection. At this point, I realized that one of the roots of my anxiety was feeling out of control of my life.

I then start to realize : My life is a consequence of my actions, and I am in control of my actions, therefore - I am in control of my life.

This was like a HUGE - AH-HAH! moment, so much made sense and clicked. I then get up to start walking home, and realize - fuck, I really, really, do not want to be inside confined by two other people right now (my boyfriend and 1 other friend were still there).

So, this starts to trigger some anxiety in me - however, I also realize wait - no, I have control over this situation. I end up calling my boyfriend, asking if he minds if I go for a walk for awhile, and not come right home. He says sure - go ahead. (was mostly worried about him becoming worried about me being gone so long without calling)

So, I start going for a walk - I actually end up popping into my apartment quickly to pick up some weed and a bottle of poppers, say hey for a moment, and then resume my walk.

On my walk - a huge part of the trip was confronting and facing my fears and anxieties.

I was starting to trip /REALLY/ hard - weed adds a lot to a trip for me, and poppers really do take it to another level of intensity. I was having random out of body sensations, my entire world was dissolving around me. Patterns would replace every surface - everything looked alien and forgine. Simple things would start to scare me or make me paranoid.

This started to trigger fear and anxiety in me. There would be times I'd start to get freaked out and start walking back home so I could 'be safe' - however. I kept forcing myself to stop and take control of the situation, to face the fear, to face the anxiety and over-come it.

So, a big part of the trip became a thing of dealing with anxiety, my actions, and controlling those actions to overcome the fear and the anxiety. I think for many people this would have been BEGGING for a bad trip - as there were periods where I was down right scared thinking "You know, I shouldn?t be out here alone right now" - but I forced myself to deal with it.

By time I got home, it was 4 hours later - I was on some next-level trip. I felt so happy, and proud, and amazed at what I had done - I had learned the source of my anxiety, and figured out how to control it to not let it give me a 'bad trip' (or, like when sober - freak out, panic, and trigger an anxiety attack).

Once that trip was done - I didn?t get any re-fills for my medication and found I didn?t need it like I did before. Sure, in my day to day life, anxiety would creep up - but I had found ways to identify it and deal with it without needing my medication to do it.

So, if anything - I'd say that LSD has really helped me cope with my anxiety attacks.

Now, I don?t nessicarly recommend that everyone runs out there and does the same as me - I think there are a lot of vectors for 'making a trip go bad', and people need to look at themselves and see if they are strong enough to cope with that on their own.

I've found that I seem to handle psychedelics very well - even when 100% alone and have no one to rely on to make a 'bad trip turn good' except myself (*note: I also don?t really believe in bad trips, just difficult lessons).

I have typically found that most 'bad' trips I've had - is usually me needing to recognize and overcome something. Once I stop trying to fight it, and accept it - the trip turns around and becomes a good experience.

On that LSD trip - the lesson was needing to learn to overcome anxiety - I could of 'given in' to the fear/anxiety and freaked out, gone running home like a scared little rabbit. Or, I could face it and over come it and turn it into a positive experience.

Sorry for the super-long post, but hope it helps.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: kaniz]
    #5371919 - 03/06/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, you're absolutely right. It just happens. You realize that good feelings and bad feelings are all up to you and the way you see a matter. And a so called "bad trip" is nothing more then usual problems everybody has in life.
One of the things that psychedelics do is that they teach you. Maybe, in Wronguy's case, given the example with something or somebody made him once feel sad and angry is just a way of sending a signal that holding anger harms him.
Panic can come from anything, and in a way I think it's a good sign, meaning that it means you're not fake. And you respond to the things that bother you. You realize them, your feeling are amplified, and it turns into panic. But you became most aware of them, meaning that you have all the time to solve them.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: MushroomTrip] * 1
    #5372235 - 03/06/06 08:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

This is a really interesting thread because I've been in a similar situation recently.  I had one bad trip which scared the shit out of me and then was afraid to trip anymore, BUT (and you probably remember Mysh) I had a trip to Peru planned within the next three weeks to do Ayahuasca in the Jungle with a Shaman so I was in a real pickle.

The Aya trip was very similar to my bad Mush trip in that it was VERY self-analytical.  But it was so strong that there wasn't much that I could do about it and it took the next Aya trip the next night to make me understand the first one.  I woke up smiling BIG!!

Anyway, even after all of this, I was still afraid to trip because I didn't trust myself enough to keep things on track or to let go or to just deal with whatever came up.  I feared myself giving myself a bad trip...still.

So I started doing just low doses to see what the fuck.  I wanted to do just enough to experience the trip, but little enough to watch for any patterns. 

This view/method may not be for everyone, but I started watching my Ego do it's thing.  I think that it's a pretty common notion that our Ego is what makes us want to hang on to reality, fight a trip and make it go bad.

My second to last trip was a light 2 grams and "the fear" arouse at times, but I was able to pull myself out of it, or rather fight the trip and compose myself back into "reality".  It was on the come down that I realized that I was actually two people.  The person that I desired to be and "The Keeper".  You know, the responsible one who was supposed to do all the right things.  I was actually able to look at myself in these two different perspectives alternatively and ended up feeling a lot of compassion for "The Keeper".  I would say to it (myself) "Hey, it's alright!  I know that you feel that you're in a position of authority/responsibility that has been thrust upon on without you really wanting it.  It's OK, come on out, cut loose and play!!"  I was actually giving myself a level of compassion that is pretty unheard of for me IRL.  It brought me to tears...but in a very good way.

I didn't really put two and two together and associate "The Keeper" with my Ego until my next trip which was a very spontaneous one gram, morning trip.  I had forgotten about "The Keeper" and was going about my usual trip feeling and fighting "the fear", when I thought about something that a very good friend of mine had told me.  And that's that any thoughts that you have (good or bad) are alright.  That judging them is placing too much importance on yourself and is self-indulgent, which is an Ego trip in itself even if they are negative thoughts.  As he suggested, I just sat back and watched my thought process as to what thoughts preceded certain feelings.  In doing this I took myself out of the equation.  I was actually able to just sit back and watch my thoughts come and go and realized that most of my mental inputs came through in a negative context.  I thought "Hmmm, that's weird.  I get an external input that's neutral and it comes into my consciousness as a negative feeling.  Something is painting these inputs with a negative brush!"  And then I saw what it was.  It was "The Keeper" and guess who that is?  The Ego!!

I realized that my ego was so based in fear that it was trying to protect me from, well, everything.  After I was able to sit back and watch it do it's thing without it effecting my thoughts/feelings, everything was cool.  It wasn't personal anymore.  I recognized that any bad feelings that I had about benign things (baseless fear) was just my conditioned Ego doing it's conditioned job.

After that when any anxiety would arise I immediately realized that it was just my "Keeper" doing what it has been programmed to do after all these years and I was able to disregard the anxiety and continue on with the trip without taking everything so personally and feeling the fear that it was trying to impart to my consciousness.

After discussing this with my friend, he said that if you can start to do this in real life, you can actually turn your Ego back into the gentle guardian that it's supposed to be instead of the vigilant Despot that it has been conditioned to be and leave needless fear behind.

This may be a very drawn-out version of the obvious, but then again, I can be pretty dense at times!! :smirk:


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna


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Offlinedemon2091tb
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: VirgilKane]
    #5372335 - 03/06/06 08:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I really like this thread, i'm not sure if it will be any use to me yet, but i think its very much what my problems are. Because i feel like i tend to follow the negative thought patterns as well, but i have no idea why......

I acctually have some shrooms in my possession right now, but i keep backing out because of anxiety, and not feeling right at the moment when i think about it. I feel myself get flushed, warm, and my head get a little fuzzy when i think about it, and actually put myself in a mindframe that i plan on taking them, and i have to back out because i get "the fear" that something isint right, so my set/setting is completely off.

I have tried meditating before, never worked for me. How can i get my mind into the right place and to know that all will be fine when i go into the trip?

Can anyone help?


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OfflineVeter
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: VirgilKane]
    #5372374 - 03/06/06 09:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You need to go into the trips feeling positive and KNOW that the trip will be good. In fact, not only know it, but also understand that nothing bad will happen.

Terence McKenna had a section of a talk about how to handle bad trips.
His first piece of advice was to sing. Sing openly and positively. Oxygenate your brain and fill yourself with air. This can help tremendously.

His second piece of advice was something along the lines of this:
Know that there is nothing wrong with you. It is mearly your ego trying to tell you that it doesn't want to be let go of. It will tell you crazy things like "you are dying", or "something is wrong". It's up to you to tell it, "No, that isn't likely". Know that - and if you've done your homework, and you should have - that you indeed are not dying. You are not ceasing to breathe, and you arent vomiting profusely and nothing, as far as a trip is concerned, is out of the ordinary.
Remind yourself of that and then get back to being one with the universe.

I truly believe these two things alone can bring you out of a bad trip. You simply need to BELIEVE that you are fine.


--------------------
Let the Demons have their place, if so, it's angels you'll create.


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Invisiblesupersapien
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: VirgilKane]
    #5372499 - 03/06/06 09:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'd imagine this is fully correct.  It's been 8 months for me and I barely remember what shrooms are even like.

But I'll remember in approximately 45 minutes. :smile:


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Offlinejonnyjonjonjon
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: Veter]
    #5372505 - 03/06/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

In my opinion the solution to the problem is ego loss. If you dont care about the bad feelings they most likely wont come back. I've had a few insanely bad trips myself but these days I can usually pull myself out of bad trips by simply not caring about whats bothering me or anything for that matter. A good way to do that is to think to yourself you could be dead tomorrow and what a waste it would be to spend your last day on earth having a bad trip. Works for me.


--------------------
Mother goose said to the swan "Is that PCP your cooking?" and the swan replied "Yes, yes it is.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: jonnyjonjonjon]
    #5373467 - 03/07/06 07:52 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

There is no such thing as being totally sure that that your trip is going to be good. Human mind works in unimaginable ways, that we only discover piece by piece. And there's always more.
A trip reflects everything about you. Life isn't perfect, isn't made out of only good. So your trip can't be only good. But what kind of value could it have if it was to be like that? It would be a lie. And psychedelics shows the truth.
We just have to be strong enough to deal with it. And alway see the entire picture, which contains both good things and bad things.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlineprimus99
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Posts: 11
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: Wronguy]
    #6118610 - 09/30/06 02:07 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

whie I have never encountered a bad trip in my experiences with mushrooms, wronguy's experience parallels mine with weed. I stil don't smoke weed, because I'm fairly sure that the way it affects me predisposes me to panic attacks.
Which leads me to my point: I believe you are suffering from a panic attacks that came on with your high dose trip. In a way, it is a form of post-traumatic stress conditioned by your intense fear that trip.
After I got out of the psych ward, I did some real introspection into the nature of anxiety cycles, and how and why they occur. I came to the conclusion that we are the unfortunate victims of a brutal cycle of feedback. In the state of shrooming, or for some, weed highs, you may occasionally feel assaulted by mental imagery that is disturbing. Generally this imagery relates to one of your personal hot-buttons. When this occurs, there is an immediate release of stress chemicals that is mediated by our unconscious reaction to that imagery. You aren't just getting hit from bad thoughts or emotions, your brain is also under assaut from chemicals instructing it to go into fight or flight mode.
Here is where you come in. the next part of the cycle involves consciously recognizing the disturbing menta imagery and experiencing the effects of the stress chemicals. The combined effect is that you are being instructed by your body through a conditioning mechanism to pay attention to the imagery due to the fact that it could threaten your survival. At this point, one of two things can happen. Either your conscious mind evaluates it and says,"that's bullshit" in which case it lowers your state of arousal, or it says "what the fuck" and increases your arousal.This increase can spiral out of control into sheer panic because the increased arousal is itself interpreted as cause for alarm(more chems, bad imagery, cycle repeats ad nauseum unti l you burn out.)
Long term, stress rewires you to make it easier to feel the effects of stress. You exercise your ability to be stressed by being stressed. What you must do is break the cycle. First things first, when you are sober, do some introspection into why the mental imagery bugs you. Secondly, train yourself by entering into a long term stress reduction program...learn how to breathe. This means set aside ten minutes every day to just lie down and breathe. Put your hands on your stomach and feell your breath, slow your breath and above all, allow it to become more natural. This alone will help tone down your stress, improve your sleep which has a positive feedback effect on your life and stress. Im not an expert at describing breath techniques, but you should be ooking for one thats practiced for the purpose of stress reduction. Thirdly, get contro of your thoughts...another ten minutes meditating by sitting quietly and wwatching the content of your mind passively float in front of you while making the conscious decision to alow it to do that and not elicit anything more than passive observation from you. This is the ultimate cognitive therapy, because it teaches you that you don't have to react to the content of your thoughts and emotions.
Then, when you feel as if your capactiy to handle stress is back to normal... ease into the mush. low doses, and above al just remember to relax and breath freely.


side note: I love this thread, and was shcoked at how insightfu you guys are.

Pat


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InvisibleMovingTarget

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 4,825
Loc: temporary
Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: Wronguy]
    #6120907 - 10/01/06 09:41 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I have no regrets about my biggest trips, because they were simply mindblowing. But....

They were fucking terrifying at many stages. The come up always makes me very nervous now, the feeling that my mind keeps warping and bending away from me. When I cant get a grasp of reality and it keeps getting twisted into patterns. Last time I tripped, it wasnt strong, but I asked a friend to make sure I never trip again. I got a glimpse of the feelings, images and scenes of previous overwhelming experiences and it scared me shitless the thought of going there again. Yet its such an incredible place to be I still want to be there again, I want to be able to manage my own fear.

Its managing the feeling of being overwhelmed by so many intense emotions and images that I wish I could get used to.

I've been thinking lately that I've never been ready mentally, my mind is too active and never stopping to check myself for any decent length of time if you know what I mean. Like I dont even know who I am sometimes.

Maybe before I take another strong dose I need to spend a few days relaxation and contemplation...

I've been wanting to try dmt for quite some time now even though I know its a lot more powerfull than psilocin, if there are any tried and tested methods of preparing your mind for a smooth transition into a high level trip please share em!

One other thing that could be a factor in stressing out, is the pains I get in my stomach. Also a knuckle that was broken awhile back never fully healed, and I stress that I've accidentally made it worse again!


--------------------



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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: Wronguy]
    #6121333 - 10/01/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Wronguy said:
Well I been tripping off and on for the last 7 years or so. I ran into a run of really bad trips, 3 to be exact, about 4 months ago. I took way too much trying to reach that level 5 trip and couldn't handle it. I had 3 bad trips back to back over a period of 3 weeks.

The trips were caused by anxiety and the expectation that the bad feelings would come back to haunt me and they did. When I would trip I would be anticipating those bad feelings and in essence cause them to resurface. It was horrible times. Okay, I figured I needed a good break from tripping to sort things out and get over the feelings I was having. I had a gift and abused that gift chasing the high.

Four months go by and I decide it's time to give it a go with my Sis, who is an experienced tripper and great sitter. I knew I needed to slowly wade back into it so I take a mild dose of 1 gram. Things are going okay but I find myself waiting for the effects to come on and bad feelings start to overcome me again. The trip is very mild and more than manageable but has it's ups and downs. When I think everything is okay, bad feelings take over me and a feeling of anxiety take place.

I try again 3 weeks later and find that the same feelings keep coming into my head and the trip is now just killing time waiting for things to normalize. My Sister and I begin discussing why the trips are going bad and I think we came up with a theory that may explain a lot. That theory is time.

We believe that because I still have a cognizant memory of the bad trips, not just the actual memory but being to able to recreate the feelings, that my trips will always play out badly. What I mean is I'm not able to just remember that I had a bad trip, I'm also able to vividly remember what it feels like to be in a bad trip. Example, you have a memory of something someone said to you that pissed you off a year ago. You can remember that what that person said pissed you off, but you can't duplicate that anger, just the memory of being angry.

I can remember quite a few things that have made me angry or sad over the years but I cannot duplicate that feeling or be placed in that state because too much time has passed. We believe that enough time needs to pass so I can no longer invoke an emotional response to my bad trips, but rather have a distant memory of them. I'll always remember that I did not like the way they made me feel but I believe I can forget the emotional experience, let go if you will.

I'm not the best at articulating what I need to convey here so I hope you catch my drift. I would like to hear from some of the more experienced trippers here, especially those who have overcome those really bad experiences. I know a lot of you will say to just let go but that's a lot easier said than done, especially when I have such a vivid memory of the experience.

Thank you all in advance for any insight you can offer. Take care.



Some insight I have from personal experience:

What you say about time makes a lot of sense. When I take psychedelics I often get a sense of drifting in time. Some psychedelics tend to cause me to drift forward, farther into prediction (LSD), some have a greater tendency to drift backward, and often replicate feelings even from childhood. (I am normally especially disconnected from childhood memories)

Other psychedelics (LSA, Salvia) seem to create temporal effects less linearly perceptible, somewhat more like separating from time that traveling through it.

It seems to me, that whether or not your theory of temporal connection to your recent bad trips is 'correct', it is an area you have created in your mind where you are developing an understanding in the nature of your bad trips.

If I found myself in your position, and my mind naturally drifted toward perception of the problem in terms of time, I would dedicate a psychedelic session to observing and interacting with the power they have over time. A natural picture that arises in my mind, when you describe your 'timeline' with the succession of bad trips is:



The line depicts the continuum of time into the past, where several bad trips have recently occurred. The height of the spikes represents psychological intensity- and because of this your mind's tendency to become caught in these areas when drifting temporally. The green windows represent your temporal focus, the larger light green ellipse suggesting more detail is available nearer to the present, and thus focus here is also easier.

The dotted lines disappearing into the future are intended to reflect the fact that the present is a temporal mirror- predictions from the future may only be derived from the past.

How your mind works in terms of perceiving the past is something you are probably more aware of than I am. I would suggest you enter a trip while meditating (or using any mental relaxation or focus technique you are comfortable with) on your awareness of temporal focus.

Tell yourself what your mind is telling yourself about time. Establish a comfortability.

I would at this point use a visual aid, or mental picture developed before hand, to visualize my psychological goals (escaping the bad trips) in terms of time.

I would then attempt to converge my mind (while under the influence of time influencing substances) with my psychological goals. Several methods may be:

-Fixation on a good trip which occurred before the bad trips.

-Realization of the psychedelic's ability to remove you from time.

-Accepting the future as probabilistic (or random if you prefer, or undetermined) and exploring the process of the present imprinting the past (the future unfolding).







Once again, this is my personal insight on the matter, what I would do if in your shoes. Hopefully you can take something away from some of this.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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InvisibleSam1912
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Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2,142
Loc: Cali
Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: MovingTarget]
    #6121376 - 10/01/06 02:01 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I'll keep this short. If you have underlying psychological issues, please take time to resolve them before continuing experimentation with psychedelics.

If these are just things that happen during trips, well.. generally, frustration and anxiety are results from expectation and controntation. Think of it surprise guided tour. You have no clue where you are going but you need to follow the guide closely. Just let it go and don't try to fight the feeling.

Think like this... You are very young and broke a sliding door glass playing ball. You are certain that it's going to get you in trouble. You can't get it out of your mind and think that you are going to get in lots of trouble. Mom comes home an hour later and sees the mess. It's been driving you crazy for past hour. Mom is shocked and asks you what happens. You can lie and tell her someone else did it and still live with fears of being found out(or until you forget and get into similar situation again), or you can tell her what happened, apologize and just live with couple minutes of yelling and some sound advices. If you choose to lie, you'll have to live with it and tend to keep lying on even the smallest things learned from the past to avoid the "overly exaggerated" consequences from your mind. What does this all have to do with anxiety during a trip? Let it go and enjoy. Where it leads you follow. If you are about to do something stupid, that's what the sitter is for. Trying to have your conscious mind control your subconscious mind is as futile as baby trying to get out of a crib.(at best, trouble)

I hope that helps some of you guys.


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


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Invisiblekake
The answer to1984 is 1776.
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: Sam1912]
    #6122521 - 10/01/06 08:54 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

There are some great ideas here so I'll keep mine short.

I think your idea is great, and am almost sure it will work. I know firsthand that my trips seem to all be the same or similar in nature if I trip a lot in small period of time. If I wait a few months, they are very different and don't so much afflict each other.

But I don't think its the only solution. You should, like others have mentioned, try to get to the root of whats causing you to feel bad during your trips... and if there is actually anything real or if its just nervousness building into anxiety, which happens and will make you laugh real hard next time your trip - if you figure this to be the case.


--------------------
The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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OfflineCaptainCrunch
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: kake]
    #6122886 - 10/01/06 10:10 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

"bad trips" should be expected when using psilocybin, it's a bummer. But it is ignorant to think that one of the most potent psychoactive drugs wont drag someone to a place they've never been or to a place they don't want to go. First to say this is an anxiety problem is wrong, this sort of problem comes with the territory, BTW we obviously already have some sort of problems to have to escape reality in such a way.


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InvisibleSam1912
journeyman

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2,142
Loc: Cali
Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: CaptainCrunch]
    #6122926 - 10/01/06 10:21 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CaptainCrunch said:
First to say this is an anxiety problem is wrong, this sort of problem comes with the territory, BTW we obviously already have some sort of problems to have to escape reality in such a way.




almost sounds like a propaganda slogan. "people have problems, so they use drugs."

No, I disagree. I'm willing to bet close to 2 decades of experience and observation that nearly all of people trip because they want have fun experiencing something more than sober night can provide, NOT because they have a problem and need to escape it. Get that straight through your head before you try to give advice or correct other people. This is an enhancement not replacement and we all know it.

If you use mushrooms or LSD to escape your problems, I highly suggest you stop. Problems will still be here when drug wears off.


--------------------
Protect your civil rights!  End drug prohibition.  And if you don't care about your civil rights, protect mine!

If you want a rating from me, please PM me.  For those really newbies, don't expect an answer back, but you can try me anyways.


Edited by Sam1912 (10/01/06 10:27 PM)


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Offlineyageman
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: Sam1912]
    #6122945 - 10/01/06 10:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

dead on sam1912

The captain was not making much sense there.


--------------------
[quote]Me_Roy said:
You moron. Material is material is material.  No 'thing' fixes any situation.  If anything were so simple we would be living in a much better world.[/quote] <-----the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life.
Thanks shroomery.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: yageman]
    #6123482 - 10/02/06 05:17 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

if anyone has read alice in wonderland or alice through the looking glass, you can see that it is laid out pretty plainly.
metaphorically. but the priciples are plain.
naturally each person sees something else.

our mental contents differ, but our mental mechanism is the same.
underneath personality, the mind operates associatively, and it build memories associatively.

in the dream (or on a trip) when something comes up that you do or don't like, by reacting to it, you add associations.
all very well for what you do like but very frustrating for what you don't like.

in the external world you can walk away form a mess, and you can approach beauty.
in the dream world (or looking glass world) walking away is the same as approaching.
either reaction adds associations, and associations make the mental form more likely to reccur whenever what it is associated with is present.

if you are horrified by something, just being worried about becoming horrified will begin the associative process that invokes the mind form that you are horrified about.

================================================

so, the first few times you trip you can experience things like a child without associations, they are new things. Then you integrate your experiences over time and build associations by integrating them, and you assimilate the magical reactive psychedelic process.

tripping after that can get rocky since the slate is no longer blank, your experiences in the looking glass world make you more familiar and less childlike.

To avoid the clenching of the mind, you need to relax, almost constantly, and you need to be aware of the ongoing associative matrix process that overrides movement which is possible in the external world. Relaxed and detatched is the direction to move, relaxed and detatched is the thing to build associations with.

In that way when you are medicined-up (as a peyote church leader friend that I know calls it); when you are medicined up you can also heal.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleLordSenate
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6123784 - 10/02/06 09:13 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

well to be perfectly honest i only had a few "bad" trips when i was younger, not knowing what was going to happen. i dont think me getting older has anything to do with me not having any trips that were negative for almost eight years now..

I think it all has to do with my mindset. I look at everything in a positive manner, even if its something i dislike, i try and find some good in it. Make the best of every situation, this is something i put in my everyday life. Expect the worst, but hope for the best, so your not suprised if something doesnt work out how you want.

This helps me keep a positive mind set. When i go into a trip, i dont think about how its going to change how i feel. I dont think about, or worry about the trip not going according to "plan", or going negatively. I just trip, i dont think about useless things. In letting go of alot of these things, i get rid of alot of the anxiety in everyday life, as well as tripping..

This is how I personally do not have negative trips.

I AM THE MAN, DRUGS WILL NOT BREAK ME.
MY EGO WILL NOT BE BROKEN, AS MY EGO IS UNBREAKABLE.
I AM ME, I AM COMFORTABLE WITH MYSELF AND WHO I AM.
NO DRUG OR HALLUCENOGENIC WILL EVER CHANGE THAT!


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InvisibleLordSenate
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: LordSenate]
    #6123800 - 10/02/06 09:20 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Also, I forgot to mention...

This attitude by all means, DOES NOT mean that I do not take anything I learn in a trip OR in real life, and build off of it. If I see anything that I dislike about how I am or, or what I am doing, I simply change that which bothers me. Its that easy for me. I constantly build on myself and my attitude as well as my outlook on life, and I honestly believe that it makes me a better person in the end. But I will not be broken, I will take everything in stride, and take whatever things I learn, as just that something new.


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Offlinereal thang
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: MOTH]
    #10122820 - 04/07/09 11:51 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

i have been smoking marihuana 1 year and a half, for the last year and a half, I've had the most amazing experiences, marihuana change my life, my way of thinking, seeing, hearing, interpreting things.But the last 2 months when I smoke I've been gettin anxious, negative thoughts, when I say negative thoughts it means that people dislike me, afraid of being myself beacuase of what they think of me, afraid of being ridiculous, afraid people don't like me for who I am, so when I'm with people I got very quite, I barely talk. I feel very insecure of my self, what can i do to improve ?..I really LOVE to smoke weed and can someone please give me your advice ? I really need it, help one of your peers to get along with weed again..

I've had like 4 bad trips, thinking that I couldn´t breathe, feeling that nothing is real. I'm telling you all what I feel so you can help me =)..How can I discover the "roots" of all these ? How can I change this experiences to a better ones ? I want to understand what, why,  how, when..I want know what is wrong and how can I change it.!

heeelllpp !!


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InvisibleShad0w
In trouble again.
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: real thang]
    #10123654 - 04/07/09 02:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Well, bud.( pun intended )

First off, you replied to a post that is 3 yrs old.

Woulda been better to just make your own thread.

As far as the weed smoke goes.

I had the reverse... When I first started smoking, I would be really anxious and paranoid, after smoking multiple times daily for many years, It went away.

I am not sure what to tell you, Good advice would be to stop smoking for a month or two, then toke up again, see if it is different.

Have you ever tried any psychedelics?


--------------------
Nothing I write on Shroomery's message boards or in private messages are true.  I am fucking crazy and I make all this shit up because I can.

[quote]sploogepanz55 said:
^^^ haha what a bummer, shad0w. All this talk about dying. :smile:
[/quote]

[quote]psychoanomaly said:
And so, I feel your intolerance and phobia towards rectal administration of psychedelics is a violation of the music of the spheres :rolleyes:[/quote]

[quote]shroom_sandwich said:
I could have sworn I seen a thread about a guy saying his dog killed the neighbors chickens earlier....[/quote]


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Offlinejonnyjonjonjon
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: CaptainCrunch]
    #10132483 - 04/08/09 07:29 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yea this exact thing happened to me and I overcame it by just constantly thinking about good trips and how I want the trip to go until it eventually becomes a good trip. Once you realize you have this ability its real hard to get stuck in bad trips because just knowing you can direct yourself right out of it tends prevent them from happening in the first place. It took a good few trips though not just 3 or 4 I think it was on my 7th trip. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger a few bad trips never hurt anyone.


--------------------
Mother goose said to the swan "Is that PCP your cooking?" and the swan replied "Yes, yes it is.


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InvisibleStraightbangin1979
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Re: My theory on getting over bad trips that just keep coming back. Need your opinions please. [Re: Sam1912]
    #15006130 - 08/31/11 11:31 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You may see this post in more than one thread but I'm trying to spread the world about I myself find most helpful for a bad trip:

I haven't read through all of this thread but I have found 3 things that are great to pull you out of a bad trip ( because they can happen even if ur in a great mind set and an experienced tripper )

1)  the song here comes the sun by the beatles on your ipod. im not a beatles fan but this song does wonders for the head

2)  nature and changing scenes. If ur inside and not feelin it go outside and vice versa. A nice park on a nice puffy cloud day is great. Nature is not only great for a trip but it can help a bad one

3)  ICE !!!! I've pulled my friends out of bad trips with it and myself.  Run an ice cube all over your face. This refreshment and shock of it just seems to snap your brain out of a bad place. Out of the 3 I just mentioned I think ice works the best :smile:

Enjoy. Be safe.


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