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Shop: Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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What came first; time or god?
    #5365814 - 03/04/06 09:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

In a universe where there are infinite possobilities as to something possibly happening, what is time?

Aquinas: First Cause

"Everything in the universe has a cause. Trace those causes back and there must have been a First Cause that triggered everything else. God is that First Cause."



But what created god? How was he created? Why was he created? As an advocator of god, but a believer in science, the most logical thing that first comes to head that every one can make sense of is: the exsistence of time makes the exsistence of god impossible. Or is it the other way around?

I've got my own theories but every time I think something makes sense, something else always definatley disproves it. I know this question is unanswered, but for every question there is an answer. Does anyone have a sound, logical theory to answer either of my questions?


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Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5365877 - 03/04/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The birth of time is genesis. It is where the solitude of God collapsed on itself and a mirror was made.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinelysergicide
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: Basilides]
    #5365919 - 03/04/06 10:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

God is not a being above all. Nobody created it. God is the system. God is the truth, God is love. God is the purer essence of ourselves, it is the divine path we follow unto death. God is life, it is death, it is everything before, after and in-between.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5365956 - 03/04/06 10:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

God is immanent-transcendent. Aquinas had some excellent ideas, but his conception of a first cause is a bad one that will only lead to confusion. The law of causality is only applicable temporally. God is outside (transcendent) of time, yet time is also a part and a whole of God (immanent). That's the best description I can give, I think. Since God is transcendent of time, he cannot be either cause or effect.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineCherk
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5366191 - 03/05/06 12:08 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: Cherk]
    #5366363 - 03/05/06 01:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i understand what your saying, but can u explain your logic. what im asking is, god came from somewhere. perhaps he was just a thought. just some wierd fluke in nothingness? or maybe there is no such thing as time. maybe everything is constant and happening all at once. i cant clearly back my logic for that, but it does kind of make sense when you think about it. but so does everything.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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OfflineCherk
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5366396 - 03/05/06 02:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
i understand what your saying, but can u explain your logic. what im asking is, god came from somewhere. perhaps he was just a thought. just some wierd fluke in nothingness? or maybe there is no such thing as time. maybe everything is constant and happening all at once. i cant clearly back my logic for that, but it does kind of make sense when you think about it. but so does everything.




It depends on what you view god as.  If you view god as the tao or eternal moment then there is no beginning or end.  Twas ever thus, ect... 
  But you're asking questions that there are no answers for, at least for the large majority of us.  Perhaps we're just a dream of god :confused:


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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OfflineDemotriton
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: Cherk]
    #5367344 - 03/05/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

God always was, and always will be.
He was never created, he just always was.
Time may exist here in our 3 dimensional world but time does not exist in the spirit world.

Remember God can do anything, somethings we have questions but we may not be ready for the answer, God will give us the answer when we are ready,

for those who seek will find

God is the great revealer of secrets


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: Demotriton]
    #5367841 - 03/05/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Time is a tool invented by people to measure their life passing, and also the course of evolution, it was a necessary thing to do in order to get "organized".
I'm not saying that's the only way to get organized, I'm saying that we came up with that as the ultimate tool.
God gave us the freedom to choose our life style, He gave us the free will. And we've chosen time throughout many things. I can go on forever wether it's the right decision to make or mot, because it has good aspects as well as bad. Like anything in life.
As for God, I think He existed ever since. The answer of what God entirely is maybe we'll never have, maybe we'll just keep discovering more and more pieces, but not the entire.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5367868 - 03/05/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

God is the Being. Time is the Becoming. Time emanates from God.


--------------------


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5368838 - 03/05/06 10:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

There is nothing.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: daimyo]
    #5369941 - 03/06/06 06:31 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

> There is nothing.

For nothing to exist, there must be something.

> Everything in the universe has a cause.

But not everything is in the universe.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5371480 - 03/06/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'd say time is part of god? So at the same time, if not the logically God would of created time (assuming God lived in a different universe to ours).

But I don't like the word God because of its relation with the religions.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5372544 - 03/06/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

God is metaphysical - prior to physics. Time belongs to creation and is inseparable from space, hence, space-time - the Matrix/Mater/Matter/Mother - Sophia, the Wisdom-Goddess that was with God from the beginning. God is ontologically prior to creation, hence Transcendent over creation, over dimension, extension, form. These things are the 'archetypes,' archons, aeons, that emanate from the Fullness [Pleroma] which is One.

Aquinas was an Aristotelian, a Scholastic. I am a Platonist (as if it were not apparent from the above). Undoubtedly, Aristotle was an 'extroverted sensate type,' Plato an 'introverted intuitive type.' Both were thinking types (according to the MBTI). Gotta have it all, but Plato's typology is much more suited to metaphysics, Aristotle's to physics. One type better suited to test the empricism of physical laws from the Primeval 'Ylem,' the other type to contemplate Reality prior to the Big Bang.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5373560 - 03/07/06 08:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

>>> Everything in the universe has a cause.

>> But not everything is in the universe

> God is metaphysical - prior to physics.

Exactly what I was trying to point out with my original reply.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5374156 - 03/07/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Causality came first.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5374477 - 03/07/06 02:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

G*d = cause


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinerockytop83
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: daimyo]
    #5375881 - 03/07/06 09:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
There is nothing.




heaven is a place where nothing ever happens, its hard to imagine that nothing at all could be so inviting, or so much fun.


--------------------


~You know that same rowdy crowd was here last night is back again~


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OfflineLazyCrash
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: rockytop83]
    #5388671 - 03/11/06 09:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Thats why we reincarnate with pre-destined "fun".


--------------------
:mallow:


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InvisibleMystikMushroom
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: Seuss]
    #5390498 - 03/11/06 09:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> There is nothing.

For nothing to exist, there must be something.

> Everything in the universe has a cause.

But not everything is in the universe.




Existance and reality is a paradox that we can't understand unless we train ourselves to think so abstractly that we loose our ego. If you ever take enough psilocybin the barriers and cultural programming fall away and the universe makes perfect sense. Guru's and masters spend their entire lives getting to a point like this...it's called "enlightenment".


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: MystikMushroom]
    #5414982 - 03/18/06 01:17 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

In my Into to Philosophy class we talked about how the "First Cause" argument was sort of a misinterpretation of what Aquinas was trying to say. Instead it can be better summed up in the "Ultimate Explaination" account of God; that everything in the universe can be understood and explained, and that the chain of encompassing explainations must end somewhere, thus God as the Ultimate foundation of existence and understanding.


As for the original post? To ask which came first, Time or God, is a self negating question. You are implying that Time and God are events ON A TIMELINE! If Time (with a capital T) can be placed on a timeline then we aren't really talking about the beginning of Time now are we?

Before and after only make sense WITHIN Time. It is nonsensical to discuss before and after OUTSIDE of time.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5415301 - 03/18/06 07:41 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Cause and effect are a function of time.

Anything that exists before time, cannot have a cause, so it simply exists.



Two simple lines, but not easy to grasp!


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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Offlinemagiciangob
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: Asante]
    #5649129 - 05/19/06 04:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

god is a string err theory


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5649886 - 05/19/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

god existed before time, and will continue to exist after time.


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OfflineLord_Shiva
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5649918 - 05/19/06 12:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Time is manmade to a certain degree. We made it up so we could control our workers, schedule meetings, cut the day in many pieces. The gods are eternal. And without a feeling of time, human beigns would be eternal as well.


--------------------
satyam shivam sundaram


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InvisibleFungusMan
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: Lord_Shiva]
    #5650356 - 05/19/06 01:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I havent read any of the posts beforehand I just wanted to say this...
"Time" is a human attempt to measure in ticks and tocks something that is non linear. This is proven by altered states, especially by psychadelics. When a human is segregated from other humans, and is totally alone, usually apart from finding a source of food and shelter, they will attempt to establish a time structure.

I dont think the "creator" made the concept of time...its just something we try to percieve to make sense of things. Hell, its 2006 and we STILL cant make up a good calendar. Leap days, and losing/gaining hours and such, hahaha. Silly humans....


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: FungusMan]
    #5651541 - 05/19/06 08:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Time is eternal, never ending or beginning.

God has yet to be proven real.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5651589 - 05/19/06 09:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

there was no time before the big bang, and there will be no time after the great collapse, if indeed that ever happens.


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Offlinetoastandjam
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5651667 - 05/19/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Three pages and no comment on the relative nature of time?

God is everywhere, right? Or everything? Or are folks saying that god exists outside of, independant of the universe and hence time?

I bet he's really fast.


--------------------
Q: We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons... and for one brief moment, you did.
PICARD: When I realized the paradox...
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you'd never considered. That's the exploration that awaits you...not mapping stars and studying nebulae... but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence.

To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. -Dogen Zenji


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: toastandjam]
    #5651681 - 05/19/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"if you've done three imposible things this morning, why not have breakfast at Millways, the Restaurant at the End of the Universe!"


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: What came first; time or god? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5656148 - 05/21/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
there was no time before the big bang, and there will be no time after the great collapse, if indeed that ever happens.




This statement makes no sense. Like someone else said, there cannot be a before and after without time.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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