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OfflineOrizonsHorizon
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Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22
    #5364812 - 03/04/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I know this has a religious theme but the question is more about the effect this teaching has on society philosophically rather than it's psiology.

As I continue to read the bible, I come across the all to familiar story of Abrahams and Issaac.? Ive heard this story many times and know how it ends but before I read on, I wanted to settle my racing mind by elaborating on the potentially negative moral impact this story might have on society.
IF God or a manifestation of what I know as my God appeared before me and instructed I carry out my Lords will by obtaining an AK47 and sacrificing everybody at school, would it be a sin if I disobeyed the request? If this did indeed happen, I would question my own sanity before taking it upon myself to directly impose on the life of another. I know the story ends in God retracting the proposal and I believe the God of the Christian faith would never fancy such a request, but hypothetically, what would you do? Whatever God you worship comes down before you and orders you to sacrifice your family---would you question your sanity before carrying out the commandment? Would you prepare to carry out the deed and rely on the hopes that God will withdraw the request at the last minute as in the story of Abraham and Issaac? (Will the all knowing God interpret and condemn this act as a deception for fabricating a fa?ade that bears false intentions to carry out his request?)
Would you serve your Lords will at the expense of another human life? And pray this vision was a true deity and not a hallucination? What do yo think?

I personally find it appalling that Abraham would intrude on another human life before questioning his own state of mind. Besides, if Abraham did question his sanity and disregard the instruction to kill his son to save his life?.Wouldnt this be the ultimate virtue of self sacrifice? Abraham is saving the life of anther at the expense and sacrifice of personal retributions and potential condemnation. Why wouldn?t the Lord understand that?----Anyways this story should not be preached in the present day of age?for every Abraham there are 1000 wackos who swear God told them to commit crimes.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: OrizonsHorizon]
    #5364925 - 03/04/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Kierkegaard wrote about Abraham in 'Panegyric Upon Abraham' in Fear and Trembling: The Sickness Unto Death. Even supposing that there was a historical person who was the father of Isaac, Jacob and Ismael, the Biblical character is mythological. In the first place, the ancient Hebrews did not attempt to write history as we understand record-writing today - accurate, objective, multi-perspective accounts of events in real time. Biblical writings are often grossly distorted in their historical aspects, while yet contributing profound, timeless, spiritual truths.

Today's consideration of the Patriarch definately calls his mental state into consideration, but that is because moderns have a scientific and hence objective mind-set. Overwhelming inner experiences were thought to have come from the gods, or other spiritual agencies, not from an 'autonomous complex' or from 'paranoia, delusions of grandeur.' Isaac was said to be about 25 years old, and was going to acquiesce to his father's ritual sacrifice? Of course, all this assumes a Literalist account of Abraham instead of a more probable mythological take. It seems to me that it is the myths that peoples buy into that separate one religious group from another, not any physical (e.g., genetic) differences.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineOrizonsHorizon
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5365069 - 03/04/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Your first point about explaining the stories credibilty-origins as a prophyecy is really not what concerns me about this.

Your second paragraph proves my point. I do not raise question at whether or not the intentions of this story were in the name of virtuosity. Of course the meaning is supposed to be interpretted as "The Lords Will is absolute"...but the "real-time" world we live in is not accurately epitomized in the bible. Modern day Reality consists of wackos and semeratans each entailing they're own concept of God.

I never raise dispute over a religios teaching unless I feel that teaching can or does have a negative effect on society. Religion is supposed to serve the purpose of a faith based form of Moral Law and Truth. It seems you are focusing much of your response on what this story is meant to teach...HOwever, My contradiction is the negative impact I feel this particualr doctrine has or can have on the society and world that we live in. We have evolved (or devolved) past the principle of Genesis 22---No indiviual has the right to use God as an excuse to take the life of another....If you think not, they put yourself to the test from a realistic/ethical standpoint and answer the questions of "wat would you do?"


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: OrizonsHorizon]
    #5365541 - 03/04/06 07:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrizonsHorizon said:
My contradiction is the negative impact I feel this particualr doctrine has or can have on the society and world that we live in.




Anything has the potential to be misintepreted and utilized towards a "negative" impact. Your post, for example, could possibly bring forth devastation and sorrow to millions of lives tomorrow. :wink:

One can simply take a pencil and draw a picture of someone that no one knows the likeness of in order to produce violent eruptions of a considerable portion of an entire culture. People have an amazing ability to upset themselves and perform insane tasks, they really do not need any provocation in order for them to do so. :shocked:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: OrizonsHorizon]
    #5365545 - 03/04/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Contradictions in the Bible?  Yeah right!  :mad:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5365571 - 03/04/06 07:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

:lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineOrizonsHorizon
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5365648 - 03/04/06 08:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

OrizonsHorizon said:
My contradiction is the negative impact I feel this particualr doctrine has or can have on the society and world that we live in.




Anything has the potential to be misintepreted and utilized towards a "negative" impact. Your post, for example, could possibly bring forth devastation and sorrow to millions of lives tomorrow. :wink:

One can simply take a pencil and draw a picture of someone that no one knows the likeness of in order to produce violent eruptions of a considerable portion of an entire culture. People have an amazing ability to upset themselves and perform insane tasks, they really do not need any provocation in order for them to do so. :shocked:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




My posts here at the shroomery arent preached as the gospel to 92% of American children.  If my beliefs were, then I would happily accept any theory's of the potential negative impact my words would have and post accordingly.  That concept can very well apply to all current forms of censorship and law but we didnt illegalize a pickle because it can "possibly destroy somebody life".
I agree where to draw the line when accessing social risks and dangers can be hard but the distribuation of organized religon cannot be compared to a single persons beliefs here at the shroomery.  Im looking at this from a modern-day epistemological standpoint and the qusetion of "what would you do" still hasnt been answered.


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Offlinesignoffate
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: OrizonsHorizon]
    #5365665 - 03/04/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

God Who gave Abraham a son, though his wife was beyond the age of capacity, required of His servant to be proven loyal before the children of his line would be granted the grace of the Lord to do his will in the world. If Abraham after recieving a child via miracle, disobeyed Gods word to him and chose to spare his son; Abraham, would not have truly believed what God told him about his future children....

Abraham was willing to lay down the hope of something because his faith told him that the will of God is righteousness.


But the true test was for Issac because he was also ready, even to die for his Lord that his work may be finished.


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OfflineOrizonsHorizon
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: signoffate]
    #5365687 - 03/04/06 08:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I cant seem to get my point across here. Abraham did the right thing in scripture since considering the Bible is true, he was in fact talking to GOD as stated...Im not questioning the validity or moral implications of what the story is Supposed to entail. Im ackowledging a secondary affect of how in modern day society, Abraham should not to be made an example out of. If God came down to your right now and instructed you kill everybody in sight....what would you do? Question your sanity or follow Gods Will? Please somebody asnwer that.


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InvisiblePsychoChipmunk
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: OrizonsHorizon]
    #5366376 - 03/05/06 01:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As previously stated, one of Christianity's tenets is that God's will is absolute. According to biblical timeline, Abraham came before Moses and the ten commandments. The first commandment is not to kill. So technically, I suppose God asking Abraham to carry out his request really couldn't be seen as a contradiction in black and white terms.

Today however, the ten commandments should be in full force. Today (if I were Christian,) if God related to me that he wanted me to go on a shooting spree/sacrifice family/etc, I would neither question my sanity or carry out the acts. Since God would be contradicting what is supposed to be his perfect will, I would question my faith.


--------------------
\m/


Edited by PsychoChipmunk (03/06/06 09:32 AM)


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OfflineTurnpikeGates
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: PsychoChipmunk]
    #5369833 - 03/06/06 04:27 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well, as mentioned, Kierkegaard based an entire book on this story from Genesis. Basically, he says that the point is not that God's will is absolute, and definitely not that it's ok to kill your son. He says that basically the individual gets his definition in "absolute relation to the absolute," which is an embrace of the paradox that violating the ethical is the right thing to do and the paradox that even in killing Isaac he will be assured of keeping Isaac. This paradox is faith.

You are arguing from the Hegelian point of view, where the ethical is the highest, that a rationally argued decision which favors society is the best possible decision. Kierkegaard (and he thinks "God")allows that there is something above the ethical, which is personal and irrational.

So given the correct (Kierkegaardian) reading of the Bible, yes someone should take from this story that they are allowed to kill (allowed is the wrong word, but I don't know a better one) if it is an act of faith. On the other hand, there is no way that this act can make sense to society. So basically killing is wrong from the outside, but can be right from the inside.

P.S. this wasn't intended to reply to PsychoChipmunk, but the originator of the topic.


Edited by TurnpikeGates (03/06/06 04:29 AM)


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: TurnpikeGates]
    #5370374 - 03/06/06 10:42 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I definitely agree about the faith-paradox thing...

I mean, think about it, he had to be willing to sacrifice his child in order to ensure a sacred existence for him! We must be willing to give up something in order to keep it...

It's also interesting to note the context. It's not just that God asked him to kill his son for the hell of it, Abraham was asked to save humanity (in essence)! And also the fact that Issac was a miracle child given to abraham by god. The lord giveth and the lord taketh away...

By agreeing to sacrifice his son he was not just showing his obedience, but was also acknowledging that it wasn't truly HIS son, but GOD'S son! The gift of child that he was given was owed entirely to God's grace. Everything that we have and love is given by God's grace, and to think that we own any of it over god is blasphemy!

I also thought that it was interesting to note that this came before the Ten Commandments. Of course that little list hasn't stopped people from claiming muder in gods name, but TECHNICALLY is does provide a moral loophole for pre-Moses human sacrifice.

All in all, I think that any "negative effect" that this story might have on society is due totally to human misinterpretation, and not on the actual story itself. To burn a heretic at the stake is in no way equivilent to sacrificing you son. That is simply destroying an enemy, not sacrificing a loved one.

I'm reminded of the question posed in the Grand Inquisitor, that if you could ensure peace and happiness for the entire lot of humanity if only this peace were to rest on the pain, suffering, and torture of a small innocent child, would you do it?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: PsychoChipmunk]
    #5370468 - 03/06/06 11:09 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PsychoChipmunk said:
I would neither question my sanity or carry out the acts. Since God would be contradicting what is supposed to be his perfect will, I would question my faith.




But yet in your imperfection, you cannot possibly grasp the perfection in God's will. Such an impossible situation to be put in in regards to this contradiction is, in fact, His ultimate test of your faith. You simply must resist all thought and all reason in order for his Light to pass through you and to forever sustain you.


:evil:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5370714 - 03/06/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Indeed, just wait until you die. Then all your troubles will go away and you can finally live life in peace. Yay :laugh:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisiblePsychoChipmunk
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5376733 - 03/08/06 07:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:


Such an impossible situation to be put in in regards to this contradiction is, in fact, His ultimate test of your faith. 





I'm glad you can read your god's mind and understand his motives... should I have any questions for him, I'll let you relay the answers to me :smile:


--------------------
\m/


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Moral Contradiction of the 'Abraham and the sacrafice of his son Isaac' story.-Genesis 22 [Re: PsychoChipmunk]
    #5376823 - 03/08/06 08:27 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PsychoChipmunk said:
I'm glad you can read your god's mind and understand his motives




My god's mind? If I had a God and his mind was responsible for the bullshit I spewed up there, then my God would have no mind. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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