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psychomime
o_O



Registered: 05/16/05
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Might makes Right
#5353817 - 03/01/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Without the power (whether military, political, legal or physical) to enforce ones claim to a right, (whichever right it may be) that right does not exist. discuss
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Might makes Right [Re: psychomime]
#5353829 - 03/01/06 02:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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"Force shits upon reason." -- Benjamin Franklin
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: Might makes Right [Re: psychomime]
#5353832 - 03/01/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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We live in a world full of power and the only rights claimed are by those who have the power, not by those who they are supposed to represent.
So, assuming the only way to get rights is to fight..... the American people would basically HAVE to revolt, violentally, against their government to get constitutional freedoms back, and drugs legalized...
and that would turn out horribly.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

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Re: Might makes Right [Re: Silversoul]
#5353836 - 03/01/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hahaha! Did he really say that?
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Might makes Right [Re: psychomime]
#5353846 - 03/01/06 03:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
psychomime said: Without the power (whether military, political, legal or physical) to enforce ones claim to a right, (whichever right it may be) that right does not exist.
Rights don't exist period.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Hahaha! Did he really say that?
Well, actually he used the 18th century spelling "shites." But otherwise, the quote is accurate.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Might makes Right [Re: Silversoul]
#5353865 - 03/01/06 03:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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My respect for Mr. Franklin has grown by leagues.
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!


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Re: Might makes Right [Re: psychomime]
#5353900 - 03/01/06 03:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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oh, but a dream! :P
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-------------------- Disclaimer!?
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Posts: 7,469
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Re: Might makes Right [Re: psychomime]
#5354018 - 03/01/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Might can make the "right of way" for itself or others.
Gandhi helped India achieve its Independence from England without brute force, laws, government, traditional political leveraging, or a military.
Perhaps it would be worthy to spend time examining non traditional forms of might or how to overcome it through non aggressive peaceful means.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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psychomime
o_O



Registered: 05/16/05
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a very good point. However it could be argued that civil disobedience and non-violent protest is still an exertion of might. to deny his followers the rights they were claiming required more force than the authorties were willing to use. IMO this a great example of might makes right.
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Might makes Right [Re: psychomime]
#5354119 - 03/01/06 04:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Right and wrong are abstractions that create more problems than they solve. Might makes a lot of things, but it does not make Right. Only Right can make Right. That is why it's said that violence begets violence; evil begets evil; and peace begets peace. Granted it's never that simple, but physical force is almost never used to make Right, because once you understand and embody Right, you realize using physical force as a means to an end is doomed to failure, unless the end you seek is unrest and violence.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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psychomime
o_O



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Re: Might makes Right [Re: dblaney]
#5354158 - 03/01/06 04:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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you've mistaken my use of right. I mean right as in "right to life" or "right to own property" not right as in the "right or wrong" sense.
although its off-topic I'm curious about your post, you start by saying, "Right and wrong are abstractions that create more problems than they solve" then you claim, "Only Right can make Right" as if Right is an objective absolute. this is in direct contradiction to your first statement that right and wrong are abstractions. why the turnaround?
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Posts: 7,469
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Re: Might makes Right [Re: psychomime]
#5354186 - 03/01/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Of course any force that gets its right of way has some form of might. I just though it might be interesting to explore other forms.
How else does something get a right of way when there is an oppressive force blocking it? Some form of might must be used.
To ask if it is right for people to use might to keep others from their rights, is an irrelevant question because it doesn't matter if you say it is wrong to one who's might makes right. If they have more might, the best one can do is appeal to them to give a right of way. Ones appeal must have some might to it, if it is to have any swaying power.
There are other options but they are radical. Consider that our governemnt has all of the power it does over its people through our tax dollars. What would happen if EVERY U.S. citizen and business stopped paying taxxes tommorow? What if we cut off our governments ability to pay people to enforce it's tax laws?
There are ways though not all are very realistic or practical.
Why did you bring this topic up if I may ask?
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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dblaney
Human Being

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Re: Might makes Right [Re: psychomime]
#5354191 - 03/01/06 04:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ah, okay, thanks for pointing that out. Then with regard to what you meant: I agree with Locke that the rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness ought to be unalienable. However, might can take those away. That doesn't make doing so right, however. So the question then is, can wrong make right? In the long run, perhaps yes, but even then any right created could be far outweighed by the wrong involved in arriving there.
As for my seeming contradiction, let me clarify myself. I meant that ultimately, right and wrong are abstractions...on a cosmic level, if you will. In certain situations, however, one does tend to make a distinction between right and wrong action. I speak of Right action with a capital R as any action that seeks to create and maintain peace and good will. Ideally, one shouldn't need to make this distinction, but I think that in today's society we must, as a result from losing sight of our spiritual goals.
If we all realized the spiritual goal of unitive knowledge with Godhead, then there wouldn't need to be right or wrong action, there would simply be action and non-action, and eventually it could be realized that even there, there need not be a distinction.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: Gandhi helped India achieve its Independence from England without brute force, laws, government, traditional political leveraging, or a military.
Quote:
They may torture my body, break my bones, even kill me. Then they will have my dead body, but not my obedience!
Gandhi was the man.
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psychomime
o_O



Registered: 05/16/05
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well I saw the phrase mentioned in another post and thought it might (hehe) make an interesting topic to discuss. Which it has.
There is a power struggle between those who benefit from a system of rights and those who don't. there are also conflicting rights. natural justice is the axle around which these systems rotate. there is often a winner and a loser and it is might that tips the scales in whichever direction. there are "right" and "wrong" (from a natural justice perspective) ways to apply that might. it is interesting that whenever the scales tip too far the oppressed apply might to correct the balance. (ghandi in india and the french revoltion being 2 extremes of applying might). indicating there is a core of rights which are inalienable and when a system strays too far from them there is a move to correct the imbalance.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Might makes Right [Re: psychomime]
#5360654 - 03/03/06 04:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You are absolutley right, man !
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: Might makes Right [Re: psychomime]
#5361381 - 03/03/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
psychomime said: However it could be argued that civil disobedience and non-violent protest is still an exertion of might.
Yes, that's what she said. She said that one should explore non-traditional applications of might through means that one does not normally refer to when one mentions the term "might".

 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: Might makes Right [Re: dblaney]
#5361400 - 03/03/06 12:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said: Ah, okay, thanks for pointing that out. Then with regard to what you meant: I agree with Locke that the rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness ought to be unalienable. However, might can take those away. That doesn't make doing so right, however. So the question then is, can wrong make right?
The question is, "Does the concept of right and wrong and its application have any value, especially considering the fact that you yourself assert that they are merely abstractions that cause more problems than they solve?"
That is to say, obviously might does not make right as the concept of "right' doesn't apply or exist, considering the reasoning that you have shared with us. What is it that you are getting at, exactly?
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: The question is, "Does the concept of right and wrong and its application have any value, especially considering the fact that you yourself assert that they are merely abstractions that cause more problems than they solve?"
That is to say, obviously might does not make right as the concept of "right' doesn't apply or exist, considering the reasoning that you have shared with us. What is it that you are getting at, exactly?
They have value so long as you give them value. Before dollar bills were created, if I were to try to buy something with a small piece of paper with some colors and symbols and numbers on it, people would look at me like I was crazy: it would have no value except perhaps to me. The concept of "right" and "wrong" came at a certain point in history. Before it, if I had gone to someone and told them that something they just did was "right", they would have no clue what I was talking about.
Quote:
In the age when life on earth was full, no one paid any special attention to worthy men, nor did they single out the man of ability. Rulers were simply the highest branches on the tree, and the people were like deer in the woods. They were honest and righteous without realizing that they were "doing their duty." They loved each other and did not know that this was "love of neighbor." They deceived no one yet they did not know that they were "men to be trusted." They were reliable and did not know that this was "good faith." They lived freely together giving and taking, and did not know that they were generous. For this reason their deeds have not been narrated. They made no history.
- Chuang Tzu trans. Merton
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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