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ChuangTzu
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US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals
#5352121 - 03/01/06 03:03 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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www . unitednuclear . com / legalaction.htm
^^Read about it here. Why the fuck should I need an explosives license to buy something THAT I'M NOT GOING TO USE TO MAKE EXPLOSIVES? wtf...
[Edit: Digg the story here so more people see it.]
Edited by ChuangTzu (03/01/06 03:41 AM)
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Jim


Registered: 04/07/04
Posts: 20,922
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: ChuangTzu]
#5352131 - 03/01/06 03:08 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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you could have made it easy on us....
United Nuclear Supplying the science hobbyist, industry, government, schools & universities since 1998. "We specialize in small orders"
The United States CPSC has initiated criminal legal action against us and other chemical suppliers. In short, the CPSC would like to ban the public from all access to chemicals. This would mean an end to hobbies such as model rocketry, pyrotechnics and of course chemistry. One by one, our freedoms are slowly being taken away from us - this action must be stopped now. Specifically, the CPSC is focusing on certain chemicals and metals at this time. The current CPSC injunction would require:
"Not sell, give away or otherwise distribute any of the following Metals for which the particle size is finer than 100 mesh (or particles less than 150 microns in size) to any recipient who does not possess a valid manufacturing license for explosives issued by the ATF:"
Aluminum and Aluminum alloys Magnalium metal Magnesium metal Magnesium/Aluminum alloys Titanium and Titanium alloys Zinc metal Zirconium metal
"Not sell, give away or otherwise distribute any of the following chemicals to any recipient who does not possess a valid manufacturing license for explosives issued by the ATF:"
Antimony and antimony compounds Benzoate compounds Nitrate compounds Permanganate compounds Chlorate compounds Perchlorate compounds Salicylate compounds Sulfur
or any other chemical or metal listed at 16 C.F.R. ? 1507.2 to any recipient who does not possess a valid manufacturing license for explosives issued by the ATF"
"Not sell, give away or otherwise distribute any fuse in an amount greater than 25 feet per year per recipient who does not possess a valid manufacturing license for explosives issued by the ATF."
In addition, the injunction requires extensive record keeping (photocopies of drivers licenses and, if applicable, ATF licenses for all recipients, as well as detailed invoices maintained for at least seven years) and will require suppliers to provide those records to CPSC at any time on demand.
This forbids or very severely limits sale of all common oxidizers and many common pyrotechnic fuels to anyone who does not hold a manufacturing license from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATF). To require everyone who wants to work with common chemicals to hold a BATF "Explosives Manufacturing License"... even though they are not manufacturing explosives, is completely insane.
You may be one of the large numbers of unlicensed hobbyist out there who are legally manufacturing fireworks of various types, rocket engines... or just experimenting with chemistry who will be severely affected if the CPSC is successful.
This must be stopped now.
What is needed now is money to support the defense of these legal actions. No matter what happens from here on out, the one incontestably useful thing we can do now is to accumulate as large a war chest as possible. Competent legal representation and hired expert help are both indispensable and expensive. It remains remotely possible that the accumulation of sufficient funds on our part could help prompt the CPSC to negotiate a settlement.
We ask your help in this. We know the less-than-encouraging financial situation that many find themselves in right now, but considering the stakes, I encourage your consideration of a considerable contribution to the Fireworks Foundation/Chemical Defense Fund. In addition I would appreciate your help in raising funds in any other way you can devise.
Any and all funds collected for this purpose will be provided to the Fireworks Foundation/Chemical Defense Fund and used solely for legal defense expenses in the CPSC action.
-------------------- Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit! afoaf said: Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: Jim]
#5352132 - 03/01/06 03:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Thanks.
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OJK
Stranger

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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: ChuangTzu]
#5352310 - 03/01/06 04:54 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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That's awful 
I always thought that united nuclear looked like such a cool company
I really hope they beat this
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: ChuangTzu]
#5352556 - 03/01/06 07:41 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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We can not fucking let the government take away the right to be a hobby chemist.
What does it take to get an explosive license?
Does anybody find it ironic that now if you want to be a hobby chemist, you have to learn how to make bombs.
I wanna be a licensed bomb maker.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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wilshire
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: Jim]
#5352608 - 03/01/06 08:12 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Nitrate compounds
i guess they want gardeners and farmers to get an explosives license to buy fertilizer.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: ChuangTzu]
#5352613 - 03/01/06 08:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I found this:
http://www.sfsmindustries.com/leup_new.pdf
Apparently you have to give them about $1000 up front and $500 a year.
Also, you can't be a crazy dirty druggie. I don't see anywhere where it says you have to pass any kind of test to prove that you are competent to handle hazardous materials.
In other words, like all government it's just a scam to get your money.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#5352651 - 03/01/06 08:32 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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> What does it take to get an explosive license?
A background check and quite a bit of money... I never had to pay for mine, and I don't know how much it cost the company. Compared to a TS security clearance, the background check was almost nothing... they basically want to make sure you aren't "a crazy".
Edit: Just read your last post... there was no test, classes, or certification needed when I got mine... as I said, they were mainly concerned that I was "stable" and not going to go on a bombing rampage.
Edited by Seuss (03/01/06 08:34 AM)
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whatever123
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: Seuss]
#5354719 - 03/01/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yea, I saw this yesterday on UN and it just got me upset to no end. I want to try and raise money to donate to them among myself and everyone else I know who often uses chemicals that we can only find on their site. This is horrible, and I wish deeply that they beet this. This simply can't happen.
-------------------- Koala Koolio said: there should be a 3 month waiting period between registration and posting.
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beavis190
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: whatever123]
#5355321 - 03/01/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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this has got to be the biggest load of shit ever.most of those are very common compounds.next we will need a license to wear pants?
--------------------
Confucius Says ... Man who put cock in Peanut Butter jar is Fucking Nuts. Man with tool in woman mouth May not necessarily be dentist. Schoolboy who play with schoolgirl during wrong period, get caught red-handed. He who fish in other's hole often catch crabs. Man who go to sleep with itchy butt, wake with smelly fingers... Man young when he snatches kisses, old when he kisses snatches.
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whatever123
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: beavis190]
#5355645 - 03/01/06 10:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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because you can cut off the pant legs and stitch them together and strangle people. duh.
-------------------- Koala Koolio said: there should be a 3 month waiting period between registration and posting.
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ChuangTzu
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#5356306 - 03/02/06 04:04 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said: We can not fucking let the government take away the right to be a hobby chemist.
This is fucking frustrating. What the hell can we do about it? Too bad there aren't any home chemistry advocacy groups that would pick up the legal fees.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: ChuangTzu]
#5356319 - 03/02/06 04:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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> What the hell can we do about it?
Check out the threads on rec.pyrotechnics about this...
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Sinthetic
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: Seuss]
#5361108 - 03/03/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Great, another reason to charge you to keep track of what you're doing.
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Konnrade
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: ChuangTzu]
#5362713 - 03/03/06 07:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
I love united nuclear. Which politicians should I begin to vote against, which politicians do I need to write letters to? What kind of petitions do I need to start?
I won't stand for this, I need to know how I can fight it.
*edit* I doubt it will be of any good, but I have sent an email to my local ACLU office about this.
Quote:
To whom it may concern:
Forgive me if I am directing this message to the wrong address. However, I am concerned about something which may occur which would severely limit the rights of any american citizen who has reason to obtain and use legal and safe chemicals.
The website of a popular scientific supply company, United Nuclear, has an article about this threat. (link here: http://www.unitednuclear.com/legalaction.htm )
I am not certain, but I hoped that perhaps the ACLU might take notice of this. I myself would stand to lose the right to a lot of activites which I currently enjoy if this is enacted, and it would be due to illogical thinking. I am not alone, this would also be a very large blow to a large number of americans, and also american businesses. As it currently is, this proposal is entirely unjust and can not accomplish anything other than harming all parties affected by it.
Hopefully I've written that well, because it was a warmup for the communication that I sent to the chairman of the CPSC. I encourage you all to contact him about this. His e-mail address is chairmanstratton@cpsc.gov
*edit- this time to make replies*
Quote:
wilshire said: Nitrate compounds
i guess they want gardeners and farmers to get an explosives license to buy fertilizer.
Farmers already have to have periodic inspections by the FBI if they use nitrate fertilizers. They are afraid that Old MacDonald is making ANFO bombs 
Quote:
Baby_Hitler said: We can not fucking let the government take away the right to be a hobby chemist.
What does it take to get an explosive license?
Does anybody find it ironic that now if you want to be a hobby chemist, you have to learn how to make bombs.
I wanna be a licensed bomb maker.
Have a look at ATF form 5400.13/5400.16 . Application for explosives license, and the associated questionnaire. I've attached the PDF. It looks like it's a hard to get license, it's aimed at businesses (you're supposed to give them information on your explosives storage facility, and what your company is), and it needs to be renewed frequently. You also, of course, need to pay them for it. And you need to submit a fingerprint form to the FBI.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
Edited by Konnrade (03/04/06 03:31 AM)
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Konnrade
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: Konnrade]
#5365032 - 03/04/06 04:08 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I suggested a link to BoingBoing about this, and they posted it 
Maybe if some awareness about this is raised, we can stand a chance of defeating it.
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/03/04/us_bans_sale_of_chem.html
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: Konnrade]
#5366490 - 03/05/06 04:02 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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If I had any money at all I would donate to the legal fund. It seems suppliers have been getting notices like these since May of last year and they've banded together to fight the injunctions. The Fireworks Foundation/Chemical Defense Fund is being administered by the Fireworks Foundation (surprise). I'm mildly encouraged by the fact that UN and other suppliers are still selling some or all of the items listed in the injunction.
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Asante
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: ChuangTzu]
#5366562 - 03/05/06 06:13 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
Quote:
"Not sell, give away or otherwise distribute any of the following Metals for which the particle size is finer than 100 mesh (or particles less than 150 microns in size) to any recipient who does not possess a valid manufacturing license for explosives issued by the ATF:"
Aluminum and Aluminum alloys Magnalium metal Magnesium metal Magnesium/Aluminum alloys Titanium and Titanium alloys Zinc metal Zirconium metal
"Not sell, give away or otherwise distribute any of the following chemicals to any recipient who does not possess a valid manufacturing license for explosives issued by the ATF:"
Antimony and antimony compounds Benzoate compounds Nitrate compounds Permanganate compounds Chlorate compounds Perchlorate compounds Salicylate compounds Sulfur
or any other chemical or metal listed at 16 C.F.R. ? 1507.2 to any recipient who does not possess a valid manufacturing license for explosives issued by the ATF"
"Not sell, give away or otherwise distribute any fuse in an amount greater than 25 feet per year per recipient who does not possess a valid manufacturing license for explosives issued by the ATF."
AAAARGH!! I hate this, and I'm not even a US citizen at all, nor in any way affected. I have however been an amateur pyrotechnics hobbyist in my younger years, and am scientifically inclined.
The spirit of invention and progress is brutally murdered here.
Let's look at the lightbulb. The plain, ordinary lightbulb everyone has in his house. The lightbulb replaced gaslight which killed numerous people by carbon monoxide people and set fire to numerous houses.
Thomas Edison could, without any license whatsoever, start his own laboratory and, to put it bluntly, invent stuff. It took hundreds of tries before he discovered a tungsten filament was the way to go.
But he can't do that anymore can he? Tungsten filament is a bomb component. Nevermind that a terrorist only needs a tiny piece which he can get from a bought bulb or simply over-amp a copper wire, but you can't get tungsten wire anymore period. If you want glassblowing supplies you must be a crack dealer, no? Oh and vacuum pumps are quite suspect too ofcourse, cant have that now can we? Thomas Edison today is sitting with a damn metal fitting in his hand and all he needed to invent the lightbulb is restricted. Insanity!!
And now suspected pyrotechnics supplies are locked away from the public..
Now I'm sorry: if you haven't fiddled with pyrotechnics as a kid you're missing a chunk of your science education. When I wanted to make a half-ounce rocket as a chemistry project my obvious knowledge on the matter did not inspire expulsion or the cops being called for "terrorism". My chem professor (bless him) kept me after class and we had a long hard talk on safety and when I showed up one day with a nitric acid spot on my finger he inquired if I wasnt making nitroglycerin. (which ofcourse I wasnt) Now that, bless the man, that was how it should be: being given responsibility and being guided in that responsibility instead of being treated like a criminal. He saw I could take the responsibility (I was a prodigy at that age like many here) and filled in the blanks in my knowledge, using my curiosity to fan the flames of my fascination for chemistry.
I feel a mature adult should have the right to tinker with chemicals provided he does so in a safe fashion.
On the extreme of pyrotechnic dabbling you have the boomers - people who recreationally build and detonate explosives in remote areas. This isn't pyrotechnics in its usual sense. Many kids have a phase where they build pipe bombs but some get stuck there and retain a fascination for things that go WOOOOMPH!! in the night. When I was a young teen I did that once or twice but then I got the theoretic message of what really happens in those miliseconds, and it stopped my fascination dead right there.
I conservatively estimate the boomers outnumber the terrorists 1000:1 but should a boomer, even a kid, get arrested they will be jailed so hard it isnt even humane anymore. I've seen boomer-sites (certainly not TOTSE but quality sites with mature adults) so I know they are out there and indeed occasionally when in nature you can hear the faint echo of something orders of magnitude bigger than a hunter's shot.
I believe that even boomers have rights, but I don't doubt one minute that they'll be tried for anything less than terrorism if they were caught. I've attached a boomercam file I found online. Now I think its stark raving INSANE what they're doing there, but they should have the right to experiment, as long as they don't endanger someone.
In pyrotechnics I love colorful arts and I hate explosions, even firecrackers (let alone that boomercam monster I attached ) but that doesnt mean that I want the rights of these people taken away.
Lawmakers are no longer in tune with reality. People dabble with chemicals and very good things (lightbulb, photography) have come from that.
Its when you take rights and responsibility away from people that they become unlawful and irresponsible. Terrorists will have access to shit no matter what you do. If you are bent on producing a bang then every supermarket or hardware store has what it takes. Anyone who has taken an afternoon websurfing on the topic and who is able to distinguish files from philes knows what I'm talking about, so lets leave it unnamed.
But if you are a pyrotechnician, or a non-pyro chemistry hobbyist of another kind, who is SERIOUS about their art, craft or quest for knowledge and who is SERIOUS about safety will be duped by this. So the ones suffering will be the genuine amateur researchers, and not the assholes and yahoos. Oh right and the little insignificant thingie called the Spirit of Freedom and Invention. That will suffer most of all.
If there are americans who are dabbling in amateur science then I'd say: your freedoms really will be taken away and its even suspect to question this legislation.
You can bet its virtually impossible to get an "explosives license" in this post 9/11 era if you are undereducated or not affiliated with an institute or company. It won't stop the nutjob and the criminal.. but it will stop you!
To the young edison: Respect  To the pyro and the boomer: Respect  To the modern alchemist: Respect  To the lawmaker and the terrorist: F*CK YOU
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Konnrade
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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: Asante]
#5366577 - 03/05/06 06:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Excellent post. Do you mind if I quote you (as anonymous) on other website forums?
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: US Gov. wants explosives license to buy chemicals [Re: Konnrade]
#5366713 - 03/05/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Would you mind also writing to these guys: Society for Amateur Scientists while you're at it? It's definitely within the scope of their interests.
If you're feeling up to it, a letter to the editor of The Citizen Scientist would also be in order. You can probably re-use some letter you already wrote or modify it slightly to make it more interesting to them.
I've been pissed enough at the general unavailability of drug-war-restricted chemicals already. They just keep tightening down. Of course J. Q. Public doesn't give two shits whether I can do chemistry at home and there either aren't any interest groups active in this area or they are doing a shitty job.
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