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OfflineMisterKite
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Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis!
    #5347113 - 02/27/06 08:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Yet another episode of conservative hypocrisy:

Whilst claiming moral supremacy over liberals because they maintain the ridiculous notion that a cluster of cells has a soul, conservatives simultaneously feel that it is OK that civilians die in the name of W.M.D.s that don't exist.

Now, conservatives might say: "That's recockulous, we don't feel that it is OK that civilians die." But you do, because supporting a war is supporting the death of innocent people because that has happened in every single war since the beginning of war. It is the nature of war for pedestrian deaths, completely unwarranted, undeserved deaths, to occur.


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"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347125 - 02/27/06 08:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well, if civilian deaths happen in war (which is sometimes necessary), people should try to minimize them. Most civilian casualties are not purposeful, but the termination of a pregnancy is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro-abortion, just playing the other side of the aisle.


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OfflineMisterKite
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: Redstorm]
    #5347151 - 02/27/06 09:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Civilian casualties are necessary, yes, when possibly the incarnation of Satan is slaughtering people by the millions, while conspiring with some of the world's greatest superpowers to dominate the world.

But that was 60 years ago.

I understand your point, but if war is declared, and it is then known that civilian deaths will occur, will supporting the war therefore be supporting civilian deaths?


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"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347164 - 02/27/06 09:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think it would necessarily be supporting civilian deaths. In some cases I would say it does, but in other's, not so much.

I think that at times it is necessary to support a war to help stop civilian casualties. It's a tough situation and an even tougher line to draw, though. I know exactly where you're coming from.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347274 - 02/27/06 09:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MisterKite said:
Yet another episode of conservative hypocrisy:





Yep...conservatives (and every other group) can definately be hypocritical at times.


Quote:

MisterKite said:
Whilst claiming moral supremacy over liberals because they maintain the ridiculous notion that a cluster of cells has a soul, conservatives simultaneously feel that it is OK that civilians die in the name of W.M.D.s that don't exist.





I always did find it weird how a significant amount of conservatives clamour to protect unborn children but they are not as quick to condemn wars.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347347 - 02/27/06 09:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MisterKite said:I understand your point, but if war is declared, and it is then known that civilian deaths will occur, will supporting the war therefore be supporting civilian deaths?


With that rational, I assume you dont support the national highway network? The number one killer of people in our age group is traffic accidents. By supporting freeways, highways and roads you are supporting tens of thousands of civilian deaths every year. Why stop there? Apply your reasoning to smoking. If you support legal cigerettes.... well I think you get my drift.


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OfflineMisterKite
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: DieCommie]
    #5347660 - 02/27/06 11:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

With that rational, I assume you dont support the national highway network? The number one killer of people in our age group is traffic accidents. By supporting freeways, highways and roads you are supporting tens of thousands of civilian deaths every year. Why stop there? Apply your reasoning to smoking. If you support legal cigerettes.... well I think you get my drift.




Both driving and smoking are conscious choices made by people. Dying from a Cambodian air raid is not.


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"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


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Offlineheidegger
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: MisterKite]
    #5348290 - 02/28/06 04:37 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

In my opinion, the reason for this hypocrisy is that besides protecting 'unborn life', conservatives have other, hidden motives. In particular, I think that banning abortions is an indirect attack against 'sinful' things like promiscuous sex or sex before marriage.

If fucking would not be fun, there would be less right-wing opposition to abortions.

Another hidden motive might be the distaste of choice about one's own life, which is perceived as 'playing god'. This is also the main motive behind the opposition to physician-assisted suicide, I think.


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Offlineheidegger
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: DieCommie]
    #5348298 - 02/28/06 04:46 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

With that rational, I assume you dont support the national highway network? The number one killer of people in our age group is traffic accidents.




The existence of a road system safes much more lifes than it destroyes. How would you get to a hospital in case of an emergency?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: heidegger]
    #5348386 - 02/28/06 06:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Having your brains sucked out of your head, at the age of 8 months is also not a conscious choice.....oh wait..... they are not human until they leave the birth canal...I forgot


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: heidegger]
    #5348672 - 02/28/06 09:20 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

heidegger said:
Quote:

With that rational, I assume you dont support the national highway network? The number one killer of people in our age group is traffic accidents.




The existence of a road system safes much more lifes than it destroyes. How would you get to a hospital in case of an emergency?


Thats very true, and is kind of my point. There is innocent life lost in either case. I think this is how all situations are. You have to choose the case where you believei less innocent life is lost. If we didnt invade, Saddam would surley have killed innocents, and if we do invade, then we kill innocents. Judgments cant be made using the ideology "if it kills innocents then its bad" because often, either side of the case results in innocent deaths. Becuase the pefect choice rarley or never comes along, all of our choices are between two evils. Personally I believe invading Iraq was the lesser of these evils.


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Offlineheidegger
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: DieCommie]
    #5348724 - 02/28/06 09:52 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"There is innocent life lost in either case. I think this is how all situations are. You have to choose the case where you believei less innocent life is lost. If we didnt invade, Saddam would surley have killed innocents, and if we do invade, then we kill innocents."

This is valid, but this is not an accurate model of the ethics most people are following. The ethics you propose might be called 'fundamental utilitarism'. You think that you are in the posession of some accurate metric for the good in the world (e.g. innocents that heve not been killed) and you do not care about the means it takes to achieve the maximisation of the good in the world.
Most people are not 'fundamental utilitarists', though.

Situation 1: "5 people are bound to a railroad track, a train is approaching. You could throw a person standing next to you in front of the train, so it would stop before it reaches the 5 people. What would you do?"

Situation 2: "5 people are bound to a railroad track. You are standing at a switch that could lead the train on another route, saving the 5. Unfortunately, there is a man working at the other route that would be killed. What would you do?"

Empirical studies have shown that most people would not interfere in situation 1. Most people, however, would interfere in situation 2. The action in situation 1 would be too direct. Thats how the ethics of most people are, and I find them quite understandable.


Edited by heidegger (03/01/06 02:58 AM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: heidegger]
    #5349091 - 02/28/06 12:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'm as conservative as they come and I think that Roe v Wade was a brilliant piece of legislation. Chew that nugget for a while.


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OfflineSkeptikos
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5349286 - 02/28/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As a conservative, how does one find justification for Roe v Wade in the constitution? It would seem that the court overstepped the bounds of it's power and the legislature, being too cowardly to touch such a controversial issue, has continued to abdicate it's proper role in the abortion issue and hidden behind the cover of judicial activism.


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Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5349479 - 02/28/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You missed it my friend:

"I'm as conservative as they come and I think that Roe v Wade was a brilliant piece of legislation."


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OfflineSkeptikos
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5350390 - 02/28/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Indeed I did. That one whizzed right over my head. I should not read posts between emails related to work, both should get my undivided attention, or none at all.


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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OfflineMisterKite
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5350517 - 02/28/06 06:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Having your brains sucked out of your head, at the age of 8 months is also not a conscious choice.....oh wait..... they are not human until they leave the birth canal...I forgot




This is ridiculous imagery used solely to stir an emotional, irrational reaction.

Roe v. Wade, in fact, "imposed more restrictions on abortions in the third trimester than those in the earlier stages." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

You seem like a very sad, angry person, SirTripAlot....


--------------------
"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: MisterKite]
    #5351582 - 02/28/06 10:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i have often noticed how "pro-life" neocon crackpots are inevitably pro-war and pro- death penalty...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5353149 - 03/01/06 11:00 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
i have often noticed how "pro-life" neocon crackpots are inevitably pro-war and pro- death penalty...


Everybody notices that. Its a very old argument.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: DieCommie]
    #5353661 - 03/01/06 01:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
i have often noticed how "pro-life" neocon crackpots are inevitably pro-war and pro- death penalty...


Everybody notices that. Its a very old argument.



Interestingly enough, it turns out Martin Sheen is pro-life.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5353969 - 03/01/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Why would anyone give a tiny fuck about what Martin Sheen thinks about anything? He's an uneducated jackass who has been highly successful in a field riddled with idiots. I daresay that there is probably a negative correlation between success in the entertainment field and innate intelligence. Good opportunity for a study there. IQ versus income from the performing arts.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5353987 - 03/01/06 03:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I simply mentioned him as an example of someone who is cosistently pro-life, as opposed to those who oppose abortion but support the death penalty and aggressive war. But thanks for the entertaining outburst.

BTW, nice sig.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5354061 - 03/01/06 04:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'm serious about the study. The bet here is that "artists" will be shown to be dumber than the average mudball. Glad you liked the sig. I did it all for you


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Offlineguri
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5358252 - 03/02/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
i have often noticed how "pro-life" neocon crackpots are inevitably pro-war and pro- death penalty...





i wonder how many are vegan...


--------------------
"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Don't kill fetuses, kill Iraqis! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5358263 - 03/02/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I'm serious about the study. The bet here is that "artists" will be shown to be dumber than the average mudball.



I'm sure they're just slightly above the religious right.

Quote:

Glad you liked the sig. I did it all for you



It's good to know you care.


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