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MisterKite
Stranger


Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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How is it possible to be conservative?
#5347092 - 02/27/06 08:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I just don't see how anyone could possibly conceive that conservatism is an intelligent, rational decision.
By cutting taxes, one is depriving the nation's poorest and most needy citizens of essential services, while pouring money into the coffers of corporate behemoths. COnservatives don't seem to understand that money grows exponentially. That is to say, the more money you begin with, the more money you can earn. Thus, by giving ridiculous tax breaks to corporations and the nation's wealtheist citizens, as conservative adminsitrations have been known to do, you are escalating the wealth of a very few elite while everyone else lags behind.
For example, in the last 30 years the income of the nations top 20% has grown 37%. The income of the nation's top 99.99% has grown 497%.
50% of the nation's wealth lies within the nation's top 1%.
While this .01% reaps in the enormomous benefits of Bush's tax cuts, Medicaid, welfare and education have their budget dwindled and dwindled.
Does this make sense to anyone? How do these glaring figures escape every Southern state? Maybe the facts are too hard to hear over the incessant repition of "war" "terror" 9/11" "freedom" "liberty".
I can't wait to move to Canada.
-------------------- "But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347108 - 02/27/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I would count myself fiscally conservative while socially liberal.
I believe the gov't should keep their hands out of the economy. I think we should move to a regressive tax rate. Tax everyone the same and people can stop bitching.
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MisterKite
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Redstorm]
#5347134 - 02/27/06 08:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Did you not just read anything I posted? Obviously, a flat tax rate leads to huge economic disparities amongst the populace. This disparity allows for an elite few to be educated, assume positions of power, and therefore control the nation. Those that weren't born into such economic comfort, however, are refused the right to an education, health care, and basic government services because, with a flat tax rate, there is not proper financing for expenditures.
Yea, it sucks to be taxed, to have your money thrown into the gaping mouth of a bureaucratic leviathon. But the truth is, is that taxes are how countries and economies progress.
-------------------- "But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347142 - 02/27/06 08:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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So are you saying people should get lower tax rates just because they are poor?
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MisterKite
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Redstorm]
#5347154 - 02/27/06 09:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Double post, sorry.
-------------------- "But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."
Edited by MisterKite (02/27/06 09:18 PM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347175 - 02/27/06 09:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I read what you said and I disagree. The wealthy should not have to pay any higher rates than the poor. If I was rich, I wouldn't believe I should have to pay a higher rate just because I am successful. I would already paying more to the gov't than an impoverished person b/c I make more. Why should I also have to pay a higher rate?
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347208 - 02/27/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I don't think you have a correct understanding of what being truly fiscally convervative means.
The policies implemented by the modern concervative party are far from truly fiscally conservative. The US government may be cutting medicare but it isn't reducing spending or taxes. Corporate tax breaks run rampant in this country.
Quote:
But the truth is, is that taxes are how countries and economies progress.
You should realize that their is a direct correlation between decreased taxation and increase economic prosperity.
If you're looking for a better system of taxation take a look at Georgism.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347220 - 02/27/06 09:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Your post is full of some facts and some errors.
As far as the wealthy getting wealthier in America....yes this has happened. You are correct on that.
As far as public education or the entitlement programs having "dwindling" budgets, this is not true. Yes, the federal government did recently cut a tiny amount out of the Medicaid budget, but the states will pick up the difference. So, all of the poor people who were getting free medical care through Medicaid will still get it. Medicare had a prescription drug benefit instituted recently which means that the federal government now pays a significant amount of old people's prescription drug costs. By the way...the "evil, heartless, and austere" Bush pushed for that (admittedly probably just to pander to the senior vote).
Not everybody wants the government interfering with the economy and stealing from the rich to give to the poor. That doesn't mean that fiscal conservatives are stupid...just that they have a different viewpoint than you.
Edited by RandalFlagg (02/27/06 09:26 PM)
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
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Loc: South Texas
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347229 - 02/27/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Maybe the government should seize everything!
of course only if the government thinks that someone else needs it.
From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347242 - 02/27/06 09:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterKite said: Did you not just read anything I posted? Obviously, a flat tax rate leads to huge economic disparities amongst the populace.
You do realize that America does not have a flat federal tax rate? We have a graduated tax rate. This means that the more money you make the higher the percentage you must pay to the federal government.
Quote:
MisterKite said: This disparity allows for an elite few to be educated, assume positions of power, and therefore control the nation.
Ever hear of public education? Billions upon billions of dollars are pumped into it. If you are a child in America it matters not where you live or how poor you are, you are given free education up until grade 12.
Quote:
MisterKite said: Those that weren't born into such economic comfort, however, are refused the right to an education, health care, and basic government services because, with a flat tax rate, there is not proper financing for expenditures.
Poor people are not refused the right to an education or health care. As I said earlier, all children (no matter how poor) are allowed access to free public education up until grade 12. Also, if you are poor you can usually get on Medicaid (which pays most if not all of any medical bills you or your child may have). And there are many stories of people starting out poor and ending up quite wealthy because of hard work or ingenuity.
Does it make things easier to be born rich? Of course it does. Is it necessary to be born rich in order to make it in America? No.
Quote:
MisterKite said: But the truth is, is that taxes are how countries and economies progress.
A lot of people will disagree with you on that one.
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MisterKite
Stranger


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Posts: 655
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5347245 - 02/27/06 09:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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In response to redstrom:
Many rich people are only successful because they were born intol wealth. Wealth perpetuates wealth. What this creates is an elitist class that becomes ingrained into the upper echelons of society, and stifles the opportunity of the lower class.
To cb9fl:
The federal government isn't reducing taxation? Are you kidding me? The wealthiest members of society have received gargantuan tax breaks in these last 6 years.
And the corelation between tax breaks and prosperity, I have yet to believe that. Look at the blossoming Scandinavian countries, some of the richest nations in the world. They have very high, very socialist tax rates. America, on the other hand, had a DEPRESSION result from the laissez-faire economic policies of the 1920's. Then there was the recession resulting from Reagan's huge tax cuts. SO show me a graph or something, because this doesn't seem believable to me.
To randallflag:
I'm not calling fiscal conservatives stupid, perhaps naive, but not stupid. I'm glad to hear about Medicaid keeping afloat. BUT, it is true that the recently projected budget has cuts pretty much across the board, (including significant reductions to federal grant money to college education [less people with a college education, just what we need]), which has worried the House Republicans because of upcoming elections.
-------------------- "But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347264 - 02/27/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterKite said: BUT, it is true that the recently projected budget has cuts pretty much across the board, (including significant reductions to federal grant money to college education [less people with a college education, just what we need]), which has worried the House Republicans because of upcoming elections.
I think I did hear about some federal grant type stuff for higher education being trimmed some.
I think we need to trim a hell of a lot more than that though. Our nation has an immense debt which we pay interest on and we are leaving it for our children to take care of. We can either have high amounts of services and high taxes or low amounts of services and low taxes. We can't have high services and inadequate taxes. When we do that we borrow money. When we borrow money we get into debt. This is not a good thing for individuals or nations.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347279 - 02/27/06 09:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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How can anyone be liberal?
I just don't see how anyone could possibly conceive that liberalism is an intelligent, rational decision.
By raising taxes and increasing government spending, one is needlessly depriving the nation's hardest working and most productive citizens of essential incentive to continue their efforts, while pouring money into the endless pits of government social programs. Liberals don't seem to understand that throwing money at the problem does not work. That is to say, the more money you give, the less incentive these people have to do better. Thus, by giving ridiculous handouts to the largely undeserving and the nation's most indolent citizens , as liberal adminsitrations have been known to do, you are rewarding incompetence and laziness while shafting the productive and deserving taxpayers.
Does this make sense to anyone? How do these glaring economic and logical principles escape every Nothern state? Maybe the facts are too hard to hear over the incessant repetition of "equality of outcome" "welfare" social security" "racist" "look at me i have no understand of the market system".
I can't wait to move to, shit i guess I'm still looking.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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MisterKite
Stranger


Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5347283 - 02/27/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
We can't have high services and inadequate taxes. When we do that we borrow money. When we borrow money we get into debt.
Like Reagan did when he invested hundreds of billions into defense while making huge cuts to taxes?
Reagan, a supposed fiscal conservative, is solely responsible for the enormity of our nation's present debt. He broguht our nation's well through the trillions, ultimately borrowing even more money than all the presidencies before him COMBINED.
That's very conservative spending....
I like how Bush claims that he is tryign to alleviate the debt when our yearly deficit runs at 400 billion this year. How can you alleviate the debt when there's a deficit!!
The only recent president to have a yearly surplus rather tahn deficit to help quench the insatiable thirst of our debt is President Bill Clinton, A DEMOCRAT!
It's late, I have work. Enjoy discussing.
-------------------- "But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."
Edited by MisterKite (02/27/06 09:49 PM)
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5347285 - 02/27/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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The current incarnations of both liberalism and conservatism in America make me want to barf. I have harsh words for both.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347294 - 02/27/06 09:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterKite said: Like Reagan did when he invested hundreds of billions into defense while making huge cuts to taxes?
I like how Bush claims that he is tryign to alleviate the debt when our yearly deficit runs at 400 billion this year. How can you alleviate the debt when there's a deficit!!
Modern Republicans are not fiscal conservatives. They blather on and on about how they are, but they are lying. They spend more money and accrue more debt than the Democrats do.
Quote:
MisterKite said: The only recent president to have a yearly surplus rather tahn deficit to help quench the insatiable thirst of our debt is President Bill Clinton, A DEMOCRAT!
True. When we had those late 90's surpluses I became somewhat optimistic that fiscal sanity had returned to the upper echelons of the federal government. Things didn't stay that way though.
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MisterKite
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5347299 - 02/27/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said: How can anyone be liberal?
I just don't see how anyone could possibly conceive that liberalism is an intelligent, rational decision.
By raising taxes and increasing government spending, one is needlessly depriving the nation's hardest working and most productive citizens of essential incentive to continue their efforts, while pouring money into the endless pits of government social programs. Liberals don't seem to understand that throwing money at the problem does not work. That is to say, the more money you give, the less incentive these people have to do better. Thus, by giving ridiculous handouts to the largely undeserving and the nation's most indolent citizens , as liberal adminsitrations have been known to do, you are rewarding incompetence and laziness while shafting the productive and deserving taxpayers.
Does this make sense to anyone? How do these glaring economic and logical principles escape every Nothern state? Maybe the facts are too hard to hear over the incessant repetition of "equality of outcome" "welfare" social security" "racist" "look at me i have no understand of the market system".
I can't wait to move to, shit i guess I'm still looking.
This isn't about rewarding indolence, it's about stopping the growing economic gap between the super wealthy and the rest of the nation.
I'm not suggesting throwing money at the problem, I'm suggesting using money to increase the living conditions and educational system of America so that people have better opportunities to rise in economic status.
BTW, I liked the mocking tone of the post. It was pretty funny 
Final point: I dont want increased taxes for working class America. I want it for that top 1%, which clings greedily to the nation's wealth.
An untouched capitalist system invariably allocates the majority of its wealth in a few individuals. The government should relocate that wealth into social programs that benefit the nation.
I, myself, have had friends whose parents have 7 or 8 homes across the world, who have several cars that cost more than the greater majority of the world will earn in a lifetime, etc. This is not right, especially when in the same city (Los Angeles), you can go downtown and find rows upon rows of people sleeping on the streets. The people sleeping on the streets do not want to be there, they are not lazy. They simply have not had the same opportunities as the wealthy. It shoudl be the government's job to supply these opportunities.
-------------------- "But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5347300 - 02/27/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: The current incarnations of both liberalism and conservatism in America make me want to barf. I have harsh words for both.
I would agree. Its really a shame. I'm dying to know what textbooks 100, 50, or even 20 years from now will say about the american government and the world stage. These are some crazy and fucked up times we happened to be born in.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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chemiKalz
u r tripp0r?

Registered: 09/08/05
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347312 - 02/27/06 09:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Me and misterkite need to find canadian spouses so we can become canadian citizens! and live off thier welfare state hooray!
im not even joking
--------------------

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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347333 - 02/27/06 09:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterKite said: The people sleeping on the streets do not want to be there, they are not lazy. They simply have not had the same opportunities as the wealthy. It shoudl be the government's job to supply these opportunities.
I adamantly disagree with you. I prefer that the government stay out of people's economic and personal lives as much as is possible.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347426 - 02/27/06 10:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Im about to hit the sack so sorry for taking the lazy route.
Quote:
MisterKite said: This isn't about rewarding indolence, it's about stopping the growing economic gap between the super wealthy and the rest of the nation.
Explain to me what is inherently wrong with disparity of wealth between classes.
I'm not suggesting throwing money at the problem, I'm suggesting using money to increase the living conditions and educational system of America so that people have better opportunities to rise in economic status.
I'm suggesting everyone just smartens up, gets along, and leads happy productive lives. Sounds good doesn't it?
BTW, I liked the mocking tone of the post. It was pretty funny 
Final point: I dont want increased taxes for working class America. I want it for that top 1%, which clings greedily to the nation's wealth. What, are you training to be a politician? It's their money isn't it? How about you try to accomplish what you want without stealing especially when historically it hasn't shown to help.
An untouched capitalist system invariably allocates the majority of its wealth in a few individuals. The government should relocate that wealth into social programs that benefit the nation.
Have you ever taken a higher level economics class? I smell ignorance.
I, myself, have had friends whose parents have 7 or 8 homes across the world, who have several cars that cost more than the greater majority of the world will earn in a lifetime, etc. This is not right, especially when in the same city (Los Angeles), you can go downtown and find rows upon rows of people sleeping on the streets. The people sleeping on the streets do not want to be there, they are not lazy. They simply have not had the same opportunities as the wealthy. It shoudl be the government's job to supply these opportunities.
I disagree with everything you say in this last paragraph
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347472 - 02/27/06 10:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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.
Edited by DieCommie (11/15/16 11:28 AM)
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Noetical
Flip Horrorshow

Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347482 - 02/27/06 10:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Here are some facts on Canadian Taxation:
19.9% of Tax Payers Income between $50,000 - $100,000 They account 34.9% of all Federal Personal Income Tax
2.7% of Tax Payers Income over $100,000 They account for 31.7% of all Federal Personal Income Tax
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347575 - 02/27/06 10:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Mr. Kite, do you think increased taxes make the populous more wealthy? Is a higher level of taxation the most important factor in increasing the general welfare? Please explain.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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MisterKite
Stranger


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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5347699 - 02/27/06 11:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
You do realize that America does not have a flat federal tax rate? We have a graduated tax rate. This means that the more money you make the higher the percentage you must pay to the federal government.
I was responding to redstrom's beliefs. I am very well aware of our progressive tax system.
Quote:
Ever hear of public education? Billions upon billions of dollars are pumped into it. If you are a child in America it matters not where you live or how poor you are, you are given free education up until grade 12.
A large amount of public education in America is of shameful quality. Not only that, but our universities are grotesquely expensive, and federal aid is becoming harder, and more difficult to receive. In Canada, it costs $2000 a year to go to some of the finest colleges in North America. In the U.S., college can cost up to $50000 a year.
Quote:
Poor people are not refused the right to an education or health care. As I said earlier, all children (no matter how poor) are allowed access to free public education up until grade 12. Also, if you are poor you can usually get on Medicaid (which pays most if not all of any medical bills you or your child may have). And there are many stories of people starting out poor and ending up quite wealthy because of hard work or ingenuity.
Sure, poor people can get an education. But that education will be just like them: poor. In some states, schools are almost solely funded by local taxes. If you live in a poor area, then your school will receive very little funding. If you live in an affluent area, your school will receive tremendous funding. Once again, the disparity between classes grows bigger.
-------------------- "But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."
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MisterKite
Stranger


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Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347734 - 02/27/06 11:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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To deep:
It's true, I have not taken an advanced economic class. Have you? If so, where?
Also, you replied with that mocking (but entertaining) post, but you didn't address any of the facts I had. You simply took an opportunity to deprecate liberals as I had conservatives. Please show some insight into what I said.
To someone, I forget who, who said that they don't see the problem with class gaps, I'm stunned. Class gaps have been a consistent source of revolution, turmoil, and oppression. Russian revolution, French revolution, Watts riots, the recent French riots, etc. Class gaps also deprive a significant portion of the population from benefits that can help build society, such as education.
To Skeptikos:
Higher taxation, especially for the megarich, diffuses wealth from a few individuals back to the people. With improved social services, the lower class will have access to the stepping stones into the middle class, such as a cheap college education. Many poor people are poor because they are forced to drop out of high school and work to help support their family. With improved welfare, citizens can finish their education to get the jobs and skills needed to rise in the economic hierarchy.
chemiKalz, I'm moving to montreal in the fall. I wasn't kidding when I said I couldn't wait to move to Canada.
-------------------- "But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347757 - 02/27/06 11:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I would be more inclined to cut other parts of the budget (farming subsidies or defense) to fund education than to raise taxes.
Also, there is also the option of privatizing education and providing the poor with vouchers to be able to afford schooling they wouldn't normally get.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5347778 - 02/27/06 11:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterKite said: Sure, poor people can get an education. But that education will be just like them: poor. In some states, schools are almost solely funded by local taxes. If you live in a poor area, then your school will receive very little funding. If you live in an affluent area, your school will receive tremendous funding. Once again, the disparity between classes grows bigger.
Schools that are in areas where not a lot of property tax is being collected are heavily subsidized by the federal government.
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5348419 - 02/28/06 07:00 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Higher taxation, especially for the megarich, diffuses wealth from a few individuals back to the people. With improved social services, the lower class will have access to the stepping stones into the middle class, such as a cheap college education. Many poor people are poor because they are forced to drop out of high school and work to help support their family. With improved welfare, citizens can finish their education to get the jobs and skills needed to rise in the economic hierarchy.
That very simply is not the way it works. The more heavily you tax the wealthy the less they spend and the less they give which is bad for the economy and your beloved poor. Take a look at New Orleans to see what a disaster welfare can cause.
I think I posted an article a while back, I'll try to find it.
Edit: looks like someone else posted the article. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4618728#Post4618728
Edited by newuser1492 (02/28/06 07:07 AM)
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: newuser1492]
#5348434 - 02/28/06 07:20 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Reagan, a supposed fiscal conservative, is solely responsible for the enormity of our nation's present debt
You are so high on dog shit, I do not know were to start.......
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5348747 - 02/28/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Reagan was not fiscally conservative.
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel


Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 6 days
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5348796 - 02/28/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
"I, myself, have had friends whose parents have 7 or 8 homes across the world, who have several cars that cost more than the greater majority of the world will earn in a lifetime, etc. This is not right, especially when in the same city (Los Angeles), you can go downtown and find rows upon rows of people sleeping on the streets. The people sleeping on the streets do not want to be there, they are not lazy. They simply have not had the same opportunities as the wealthy. It shoudl be the government's job to supply these opportunities."
I disagree with everything you say in this last paragraph
While I am skeptical that someone who can't even comprehend how someone could have an opposing view to theirs would be able to provide any insight into anything...
I can't see how you could possibly think that the homeless are there because that's where they want to be. I've known a lot of people who've taken a lot of different paths in their lives. One thing I've noticed, which is kind of odd, is that there are a lot of intelligent people, who try to work hard, but are easily brought down by stress, and sucked into cycles of laziness. These people mean well, they want to succeed, but their psychological makeup just doesn't allow them to perform the way others do. Some of these people get lucky... I'm sure a lot of successful authors and musicians fall into this catagory.
I've also known a lot of inconsiderate idiots, who can't hold an interesting conversation to save their lives, treat the people around them like toys, and are incredibly organized and successful.
Many conservatives believe that people succeed because they deserve to succeed, and fail because they deserve to fail, but this is nonsense.
-------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Redstorm]
#5349171 - 02/28/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: I would be more inclined to cut other parts of the budget (farming subsidies or defense) to fund education than to raise taxes.
The simple fact is that government is just too big, too intrusive and too expensive. Deficit spending (via monetization of the debt and increasing the money supply) shifts the tax burden upon the holder of every dollar in circulation by debasing the currency, and to future taxpayers who will have to refinance or pay off the debt. The government collects more than enough money in taxes, it just spends way too much on too many things which are not essential, which favor certain well to do and well connected individuals and industries.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5349233 - 02/28/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterKite said: To Skeptikos:
Higher taxation, especially for the megarich, diffuses wealth from a few individuals back to the people.
Taking money from those who earn it and giving it to those who have not, is not diffusing wealth 'back to the people.' It is simply using the government to rob some for the benefit of others. Redistribution ameliorates the poor's wants for today, but does nothing to imbue them with the traits needed for making them tax producers instead of tax consumers
Quote:
With improved social services, the lower class will have access to the stepping stones into the middle class, such as a cheap college education.
Government has never spent so much in history as it does today. The benefits you are touting are not in evidence. More money thrown at something does not equate to improving it.
Quote:
Many poor people are poor because they are forced to drop out of high school and work to help support their family.
Funny, my immigrant grand parents with as little as an eighth grade education were able to prosper. Becoming landlords and owners of various income producing enterprises.
Quote:
With improved welfare, citizens can finish their education to get the jobs and skills needed to rise in the economic hierarchy.
The facts are not in evidence to support your contention. It takes more than welfare to rise economically. Behavior and attitude can not be dispensed with government hand outs, but are essential to improving oneself economically. The desire to forgo immediate gratification, to save for desired future material improvements is one of the most important traits which help people to advance economically. This behavior is not promoted through welfare, indeed it seems to be diminished through the increasing interference of the government in people's lives.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Phluck]
#5349655 - 02/28/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
Many conservatives believe that people succeed because they deserve to succeed, and fail because they deserve to fail, but this is nonsense.
I do not believe in "deserving" but I do believe that you are the main person responsible for what happens to you when you fail as catastrophicly as becoming homeless in this country. You pretty much have to actively seek failure to not be able to support yourself here. Or be in the relatively tiny percentage that is truly geneticly fucked or the victim of some kind of hideous accident. Does Paris Hilton deserve anything? NO. She however is irrelevant to any discussion of homelessness or hunger. Frankly, I think she is out of the loop of Homo Sapiens and I doubt it will turn out all that well for her.
You really really have to choose to fuck up to fail here. Shut up, go to work on time, stay away from babies you can't support and you will be fine. Get pregnant at 15, get high all day and miss appointments and work, or tell everyone you come in contact with what inferior proletariat assholes they are and you can sleep in a fucking dumpster. Enjoy, cunthead. I aint interested in paying for your room at the fleabag ritz. If that is what you choose then fuck you. Remember, just say no to babies, they are the life killer.
--------------------
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newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Skeptikos]
#5349668 - 02/28/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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This article seems surprisingly relevant.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060227/ts_usatoday/lotterywinnersgoodluckcangobadfast
Quote:
Gerry Beyer, who teaches estate law at Texas Tech University, has written about people who come into sudden wealth - such as lottery winners, sports figures, actors and actresses - and how they end up losing it. Many don't realize that if they spend their money, rather than investing and living off the earnings, "there's nothing to replace it," Beyer says.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5349682 - 02/28/06 02:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Believe me when I tell you that I know some absolute retards and assholes who are rich as hell. I long ago got over whining about why assholes have money. I chose to go out and get my own. They got more, but I can't do anything about that. I can only act on my own. Stop whining about what the kid down the hall has. Envy is probably the most destructive of the seven deadly sins
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5349788 - 02/28/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Most taxes are harmful to the economy. Furthermore, the welfare state in its current form tends to lead to phenomenon lazy slobs sitting on the couch watching daytime TV while supporting themselves on taxpayer dollars. Now, let me make it clear that I am not a conservative, but neither do I support the economic ignorance that you display. The taxes you support tend to stagnate the economy. Thus, there is less money to be redistributed. The conservative answer is simply to tax less, or, as Redstorm pointed out, a flat tax.
Now, I happen to think a flat tax would be a good start, as it would simplify the tax system, making fewer loopholes for corporations, but I think there are smarter methods of taxation than that. A step further in the right direction would be a negative income tax. And even superior alternative is the pigovian tax, as it specifically targets market failures. The best tax, however, is the land value tax, as it corrects the main externality that creates such large gaps between rich and poor.
Now, I'm sure that all went over your head, so I'll just talk specifically about the welfare state. Now, I'm not completely against the idea of the welfare state, but it most definitely is not satisfactory in its current form. We need a welfare state that helps people help themselves, rather than encouraging people to be lazy parasites, which is what our current system does.
--------------------
Edited by Paradigm (02/28/06 03:00 PM)
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peace_n_love
Soldier of Knowledge


Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 186
Loc: Canada :)
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Silversoul]
#5349858 - 02/28/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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"I can't wait to move to Canada." by MisterKite
Hey man, the Conservative party just got elected here...not much different up here unless your talking about BC, everythings different over here.
Peacefulness.
Edited by peace_n_love (02/28/06 03:00 PM)
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5349891 - 02/28/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterKite said: To deep:
It's true, I have not taken an advanced economic class. Have you? If so, where?
Also, you replied with that mocking (but entertaining) post, but you didn't address any of the facts I had. You simply took an opportunity to deprecate liberals as I had conservatives. Please show some insight into what I said.
To someone, I forget who, who said that they don't see the problem with class gaps, I'm stunned. Class gaps have been a consistent source of revolution, turmoil, and oppression. Russian revolution, French revolution, Watts riots, the recent French riots, etc. Class gaps also deprive a significant portion of the population from benefits that can help build society, such as education.
Macro and Micro Economics at Purdue University.
IMHO your first post was mainly an opinion piece written with quite deceptive language which is why i choose to just mock it and leave it at that.
The actual facts you stated dont impress me. A lot of that is due to the existence of natural monopolies or similar cost curves which lend to oligopolistic markets. I understand that this is just reality and that imposing unreasonable taxes is not the solution.
If you would have focused your post on or mentioned methods of increasing the incentive to "spread the wealth" then i would have been interested in discussing it. As well some of the socialistic policies of the government have led to these gaps and ultimately i feel that if the system was more capitalistic these gaps would be much smaller or nonexistent.
And all of those events which you mention are complex and none of them can be explained by class gaps as caused by a capitalistic market economy.
And finally i completely disagree that one person or a group of people being rich in America deprives anyone else of anything.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5349892 - 02/28/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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How is it possible to be conservative?
a lot of people get that way from studying economics and\or history.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: d33p]
#5349939 - 02/28/06 03:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said:And finally i completely disagree that one person or a group of people being rich in America deprives anyone else of anything.
Awsome point
The poor in america are catagorized by what they have compared to the rich. If my lifestyle went unchanged, and Bill Gates doubled in wealth, I would for some reason be seen as twice as poor. Taken to the extreme, if Bill Gates suddenly had 100x the wealth, I would be considered very poor yet have no change to my lifestyle (same food, electricity, etc.).
Moral of the story is, it dosent matter how much the rich have, it matters how little the poor have. If the poor get richer at a rate of 2x and the rich get richer at the rate of 3x, whats wrong with that? Thats a good thing.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Phluck]
#5349946 - 02/28/06 03:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said: While I am skeptical that someone who can't even comprehend how someone could have an opposing view to theirs would be able to provide any insight into anything...
I can't see how you could possibly think that the homeless are there because that's where they want to be. I've known a lot of people who've taken a lot of different paths in their lives. One thing I've noticed, which is kind of odd, is that there are a lot of intelligent people, who try to work hard, but are easily brought down by stress, and sucked into cycles of laziness. These people mean well, they want to succeed, but their psychological makeup just doesn't allow them to perform the way others do. Some of these people get lucky... I'm sure a lot of successful authors and musicians fall into this catagory.
I've also known a lot of inconsiderate idiots, who can't hold an interesting conversation to save their lives, treat the people around them like toys, and are incredibly organized and successful.
Many conservatives believe that people succeed because they deserve to succeed, and fail because they deserve to fail, but this is nonsense.
Zappa expresses a similar sentiment to mine on this issue. For me it boils down to personal responsibility. Of course i don't actually believe that a lot of the homeless want to be homeless, but when they have the means to help themselves and choose not to or believe they can't, they are solely the one responsible. They might as well want to be homeless.
As well I don't understand why the existence of inequality can not be accepted for what it is, permanent.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel


Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 6 days
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5350029 - 02/28/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Of course inequality is permenant, there really is no way it can be completely eliminated... but that doesn't mean it's a good thing, or that working to reduce it, or at the very least avoiding actively supporting it isn't a good thing to do.
Just because someone has the intelligence and necessary skill set to do much better for themselves doesn't mean they have the necessarily drive or emotional and psychological stability to achieve.
People have trouble accepting that psychological problems are "real". They're still generally seen as kind of illusionary. As though all that's needed to overcome them is a better outlook and a kick in the ass. But we don't really have a choice about how our brains will work, it may seem like it, but we can't suddenly choose to be more motivated and happy.
If you're an intelligent person that has suffered from crippling depression your entire life, and you're not the kind of person who buries their sorrow in work, but gets more lethargic the more depressed they get... you're kind of screwed. Or what about an intelligent kid raised by shitty parents? Sure some of them pull themselves together and are able to achieve, but they're exceptional people, most people raised in shitty circumstances don't become successful. They were never shown what personal responsibility actually is. There are lots of people out there like this, and many of them could benefit from social programs, with the right facets to help them, they could become productive, and ABLE to be personally responsible.
-------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5350128 - 02/28/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
As well I don't understand why the existence of inequality can not be accepted for what it is, permanent.
I have often heard conservatives say that inequality is justified because people do unequal amounts of work, and I might agree if I thought this was the only source of inequality. However, there are other factors which contribute to inequality which have nothing to do with merit, and I think we should to neutralize these other factors as much as possible. And even then, I still think a certain social safety net should be in place for groups such as the handicapped or retarded, who are unable to work.
--------------------
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Phluck]
#5350172 - 02/28/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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As someone who was raised by uninvolved pothead parents, has horrible problems with procrastination, and has been diagnosed with mild depression and GAD, i still disagree. I feel everyone should be completely responsible for them self/situation, their brain, and whatever it may manifest. And still, i don't understand how you expect to change or lesson this kind of inequality. I've yet to see an effective and reasonable way to combat these problems. However, when one is presented i will consider it.
my heart bleeds now and then but i have an incredibly hard time putting faith into any government programs much less social programs.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Silversoul]
#5350208 - 02/28/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: I have often heard conservatives say that inequality is justified because people do unequal amounts of work, and I might agree if I thought this was the only source of inequality. However, there are other factors which contribute to inequality which have nothing to do with merit, and I think we should to neutralize these other factors as much as possible. And even then, I still think a certain social safety net should be in place for groups such as the handicapped or retarded, who are unable to work.
I am not saying this. I'm saying inequalities having no basis in merit(at least, the person in question's merit) are permanent and unavoidable within reasonable means. Why can't/shouldn't inequality having no basis in merit exist within reason?
And just to clear this up some since we are all being so vague with our modifiers please name some ways to help neutralize these inequalities.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5350243 - 02/28/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said: And just to clear this up some since we are all being so vague with our modifiers please name some ways to help neutralize these inequalities.
Well, the biggest one is one which I've ranted against consistently, which that of rental income from land values. As I've said before, a high land value tax is the way to neutralize this. There are other unfair ways that the rich don't pay their fair share. For example, they might pollute the air while pushing the costs onto the rest of society. By using certain taxes, we can target these externalities, and make people pay for the costs they incur on society. Obviously, it would be counterproductive to neutralize such factors as talent, but we should attempt to a reasonable degree to neutralize those factors which are systemic, and not innate.
--------------------
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Silversoul]
#5350304 - 02/28/06 05:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: Well, the biggest one is one which I've ranted against consistently, which that of rental income from land values. As I've said before, a high land value tax is the way to neutralize this. There are other unfair ways that the rich don't pay their fair share. For example, they might pollute the air while pushing the costs onto the rest of society. By using certain taxes, we can target these externalities, and make people pay for the costs they incur on society. Obviously, it would be counterproductive to neutralize such factors as talent, but we should attempt to a reasonable degree to neutralize those factors which are systemic, and not innate.
I can agree with legislature designed to transfer spillover costs back onto the company producing them because it represents a hidden overallocation of resources which undermines the market system. However, this is in no way clear cut making it very difficult to legislate fairly and accurately. Still, i wish we wouldnt have to do this but its logical if not reasonable.
And i understand the purpose of taxing the rental income from land values but could you give me a link somewhere explaining how it works. Or do it yourself. Mainly, I dont understand when it would be applied.
And do you have any figures on how much the rich makes from this. My parents recently made about $300,000 on a couple acres in south florida within five years. I imagine it must be a lot.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5350339 - 02/28/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said: And i understand the purpose of taxing the rental income from land values but could you give me a link somewhere explaining how it works. Or do it yourself. Mainly, I dont understand when it would be applied.
Basically, land value is socially generated, so the privatization of those profits is essentially a theft from society. What's more is that public infrastructure contributes to the land value of those who reap the most benefit from it, yet the costs of running it are usually incurred on everyone via sales tax. This means that the poor(or those who live on less valuable land) are subsidizing the rich.
Quote:
And do you have any figures on how much the rich makes from this. My parents recently made about $300,000 on a couple acres in south florida within five years. I imagine it must be a lot.
Well, I don't have any exact figures on hand, but just to give you an idea, McDonalds makes most of its money from real estate, not from happy meals. Another case in point is Donald Trump.
--------------------
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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Posts: 5,381
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Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Silversoul]
#5350385 - 02/28/06 05:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: Basically, land value is socially generated, so the privatization of those profits is essentially a theft from society. What's more is that public infrastructure contributes to the land value of those who reap the most benefit from it, yet the costs of running it are usually incurred on everyone via sales tax. This means that the poor(or those who live on less valuable land) are subsidizing the rich.
Well, I don't have any exact figures on hand, but just to give you an idea, McDonalds makes most of its money from real estate, not from happy meals. Another case in point is Donald Trump.
You didnt understand what i was asking. I asked when do the land owners incur the tax on the rental income and how is it applied.
And thats fucking crazy about McDonalds. Got a good source so i can show some other people?
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5350455 - 02/28/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said: You didnt understand what i was asking. I asked when do the land owners incur the tax on the rental income and how is it applied.
Oh. Well, basically it works like a property tax, except it only taxes the unimproved value of the land, without taxing the house and other improvements on it. Whereas taxing a product often tends to increase the price, taxing the land would simply defer the cost from private hands to the public coffers. So even if the tax rate is 100%, the homeowner wouldn't be paying any more in taxes than they otherwise would in mortgage payments.
Quote:
And thats fucking crazy about McDonalds. Got a good source so i can show some other people?
I'm afraid I heard that information second-hand, so I don't have a direct source on it. But in general, corporations tend to be the biggest landowners, and a large percentage of the profits they reap come from the land values.
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MisterKite
Stranger


Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5350482 - 02/28/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You guys have given me a lot to consider. After finishing these 3 pages, Libertarianism seems much more appealing and reasonable. What truly i have been granted from this discussion, though, is an ilumination of my economic ignorance, and my complete disregard for motivating factors and government irresponsibility.
It always feels good to be slapped in the face every now and again, thank you d33p.
As to SirTripAlot
Quote:
You are so high on dog shit, I do not know were to start.......
When Reagan assumed office, the national debt was just under $1,000,000,000,000. When he left eight years later, it had tripled, reaching $4,000,000,000,000. Look at any diagram showing the national debt through the presidencies, and Reagan is (to use a ski analogy) a double black diamond compared to the green runs of previous presidencies.
If you are going to lambast me with ridiculous insults with no justifaction, at least get your facts straight: I'm high on mushies, not dogshit
-------------------- "But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5350555 - 02/28/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterKite said: You guys have given me a lot to consider. After finishing these 3 pages, Libertarianism seems much more appealing and reasonable. What truly i have been granted from this discussion, though, is an ilumination of my economic ignorance, and my complete disregard for motivating factors and government irresponsibility.
It always feels good to be slapped in the face every now and again, thank you d33p.
As to SirTripAlot
Quote:
You are so high on dog shit, I do not know were to start.......
When Reagan assumed office, the national debt was just under $1,000,000,000,000. When he left eight years later, it had tripled, reaching $4,000,000,000,000. Look at any diagram showing the national debt through the presidencies, and Reagan is (to use a ski analogy) a double black diamond compared to the green runs of previous presidencies.
If you are going to lambast me with ridiculous insults with no justifaction, at least get your facts straight: I'm high on mushies, not dogshit
I'm just gonna go ahead and quote this for future reference. lol
And if you serriously mean was you say it makes me and I'm sure many others here feel good. Its not everyday you can change someones mind and there have been very few conversions here in PAL, eventhough we have all changed except for a few.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5350572 - 02/28/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterKite said: You guys have given me a lot to consider. After finishing these 3 pages, Libertarianism seems much more appealing and reasonable.
Welcome to the Dark Side my young apprentice.

Your next task is to construct a light saber and then read "Atlas Shrugged".
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5350625 - 02/28/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You know, you are only focusing on income tax. Try living in Chicago or San Francisco, both liberal "meccas", if you are poor. Hell, try living there if you are middle class and you will suddenly be poor.
Everyone in chicago, rich and poor, pays nearly 10% sales tax on goods. Everyone also pays the same insane multiple property taxes there so I hope lower income families never desire to own a home. Need a vehicle to get to work? Be ready to pay thousands of dollars a year in vehicle stickers, license tax, "wheel" taxes, parking taxes, and tolls. They start taxing you the minute you step out the door in the morning and they don't stop until you come home at night with nothing left. When you actually look at what they spend this money on, it amounts to nothing more than theft.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5352395 - 03/01/06 05:45 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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On the other hand...
What percentage of taxes are paid by the wealthiest 5% of Americans? The wealthiest 5 percent have 59% of the wealth and pay 38.4 percent of federal taxes. The wealthiest 1 percent have over 38 percent of the wealth and pay 24.8 percent of federal taxes. These households have an average wealth of $10.2 million and pay only 3.5 percent of their wealth in taxes. By way of comparison, the bottom 40 percent of taxpayers have an average net wealth of $1,100 and pay 163 percent of their net wealth in taxes.
If all taxpayers paid the same 10.5 percent of their wealth in taxes as median income families pay, the taxes of the lowest 40 percent would be cut by 94 percent while the taxes of the wealthiest would triple.
Source: Congressional Budget Office and United for a Fair Economy
In Minnesota how does the rate of taxation paid by people making over $845,000 compare with the rate of taxation paid by those making less than $27,000 per year?
When all state and local taxes are considered, Minnesotans making more than $845,000 a year will pay 7.7% of their income in taxes, while those making less than $27,000 a year will pay 11.3%. That's an effective rate nearly one and a half times higher than the top end.
http://www.osjspm.org/101_taxes.htm#8
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,460
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5352520 - 03/01/06 07:21 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Misterkite,
For you to suggest that Reagan is the sole source problem of our current national debt, is completely false. There have been several presidents since Reagan left office that have had tremendous spending issues (to include the current one).
What is your understanding of the national debt?
Who is going to collect from the USA on this debt?
Mostly, the USA debt is a just number.
How many countries out there do you think owe us money?????
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5352900 - 03/01/06 09:45 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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After finishing these 3 pages, Libertarianism seems much more appealing and reasonable
I thought that at first too, it's when they start going on about leaving the disabled to starve to death in the street that I tuned out. Apparantly the theory is if you stop the rich paying any tax they'll turn over a new leaf and suddenly become really generous, giving money to charity instead of spending it on their second holiday homes.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5353157 - 03/01/06 11:02 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Misterkite,
For you to suggest that Reagan is the sole source problem of our current national debt, is completely false. There have been several presidents since Reagan left office that have had tremendous spending issues (to include the current one).
What is your understanding of the national debt?
Who is going to collect from the USA on this debt?
Mostly, the USA debt is a just number.
How many countries out there do you think owe us money?????
There have been several presidents who have had spending problems since them (pretty much all of them), but Reagan was the one who started the whole pattern of spending much, more more than we have.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5354342 - 03/01/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Alex has, as usual, lobbed a softball.
Quote:
Alex213 said: On the other hand...
What percentage of taxes are paid by the wealthiest 5% of Americans? The wealthiest 5 percent have 59% of the wealth and pay 38.4 percent of federal taxes. The wealthiest 1 percent have over 38 percent of the wealth and pay 24.8 percent of federal taxes. These households have an average wealth of $10.2 million and pay only 3.5 percent of their wealth in taxes. By way of comparison, the bottom 40 percent of taxpayers have an average net wealth of $1,100 and pay 163 percent of their net wealth in taxes.
There's a good reason why income is taxed as opposed to wealth. Let's consider just what constitutes wealth. Wealth encompasses the value of what one owns. Cash in savings accounts. Equity on your home and other possessions. Stocks. Bonds. Other items of REAL value. Stop the bus right there. These things generally earn a net income of around 5%. Some less, some more, none wildly different unless your stock was Microsoft at $2 or your neighbohood went nuts.
Quote:
If all taxpayers paid the same 10.5 percent of their wealth in taxes as median income families pay, the taxes of the lowest 40 percent would be cut by 94 percent while the taxes of the wealthiest would triple.
If you paid 10% of your wealth in taxes instead of your income you would be losing on every investment. Every single one. Why own anything. Your grandma living off her savings and investments would be competely fucked. Only a retard would put money in a savings account and you'd be losing money on your house every year. No one would own stocks. Wealth, as we know it, would be extinct. As it is, the lowest 40% live off the rich mans titty. And they'd never get any better because it would be counterproductive to accrue wealth since the taxation on it would outpace the gains.
Quote:
Source: Congressional Budget Office and United for a Fair Economy
In Minnesota how does the rate of taxation paid by people making over $845,000 compare with the rate of taxation paid by those making less than $27,000 per year?
When all state and local taxes are considered, Minnesotans making more than $845,000 a year will pay 7.7% of their income in taxes, while those making less than $27,000 a year will pay 11.3%. That's an effective rate nearly one and a half times higher than the top end.
http://www.osjspm.org/101_taxes.htm#8
Some taxes are capped or are actually pegged to the value of something you own. Capped taxes include soc sec and medicare. You pay a percentage of income up to a certain level. Then you don't. You also aren't eligible for benefits if you make too much in medicare and soc sec is a ponzi scheme joke and the benefits are capped. But it's 15% (combined) of your income up to around $125,000. Is it a smaller % for people above that? Of course. Do they get greater benefits? No. As to property taxes, sure they consume a higher percentage of lower income earners. That's because the cost of the house they own is a greater percentage of their wealth. It's also more leveraged. That is, the percentage of equity paid in property taxes is higher if you owe money than it is if you own the house outright. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that, it just means it skews the stats of percentage of taxes paid if you don't think. Simple example: Edgar owns a $300,000 house. He just bought it with an 80% loan so his equity stake is $60,000. Rodney bought a similar house 30 years ago and his note is paid up so he has an equity stake of $300,000. They have the same house. Do you think that Rodney should pay 5 times the taxes as Edgar? Alex does.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: DieCommie]
#5355229 - 03/01/06 09:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Everybody I know who turned out to be a bum both wants to be there and is lazy. Im not saying everyone is, but everyone I know is. Dont think I being "insensitive" to real adversity. My own little brother is homeless, along with my best friend from teenage years. I, and my family tried so hard to help each of them by giving, giving, and giving. What do they do? Take, take, and take. IMO, the vast majority of homeless people could not ever hold a job, or lead a emotionally stable life, no matter what opportunities are given to them.
Of course there is the select few who are born with mental problems or got sick, and they should be helped. And guess what? They are. I guarantee you in every major city (including LA) you will find kitchens whose sole purpose is to give out food for free! (I know, I did community service in one) Can you not appreciate how amazingly wonderful this is? How many cultures in history have had the wealth and compassion to give free food to the needy and the lazy? Growing up we got food from the food bank regularly (because my dad is lazy). The food we got was great, not just rice or corn, but meat and pre-packaged food. It was a real treat for my brother and I.
Bottom line is poverty in America is exaggerated by some people for one reason or another. There is nobody starving in America. This is what real poverty looks like
 And this is what gets me worked up and emotional. We live in the richest country that ever existed, where the "poor" are suffering from an epidemic of obesity, yet still some of us complain when we dont get enough luxury and claim we are in poverty if we dont have luxury.
This is just your perspective, but I think you misunderstand homelessness in America. By percentage, the most common types of homeless people in America fit into the following categories:
1)Mentally Ill- Back in the day, the government used to just put anyone who was unable to function due to mental illness into asylums. These were places where people with everything from schizophrenia to severe autism were basically locked up and looked after but not attended to in any psychologically beneficial way. In the 60s it was decided that this was wrong, and state after state simply cut funding for asylums and the inpatients were released, simply turned out onto the street without any means to function socially due to neglect. Clearly if you can't function socially, you can't hold any type of job.
2)Elderly- Many many homeless people are senior citizens who are experiencing homelessness for the first time in their lives. They may have worked their whole lives, even making enough money to buy homes and send their children to school. But pensions today are no longer what they used to be, and life's expenses have become increasingly difficult to attain. These people are too old to work, and for a variety of reasons there is no one able or willing to support them financially. Social Security checks, after taxes, average less than $500 a month. Try paying rent and living on less than $500 a month. Its not possible.
3)Vietnam Vets- In my opinion these are the biggest victims of the Vietnam war. When our men came back from Vietnam, phyiscally and emotionally crippled by one of the most traumatic wars of the modern era, they were greeted by a government that was willing to pump billions into the battle, but only feeble amounts into the recovery for our soldiers. Many soldiers were treated for their wounds and then left to rot in massive understaffed hospitals for months, as the government neglected to even pay for their bus ticket back home from DC. The psychological effects of the war has put a large amount of vets also into the category of mentally ill, and unable to work or really function.
The really disturbing thing that no one is talking about is that the current Iraq war is having a lot of the same effects on soldiers as the Vietnam war had. We will be paying for this war for our whole lives, as we are creating a whole new generation of physically and emotionally crippled men.
4)Immigrants- Say what you will about immigration, I know the right likes to bash border jumpers. But the fact remains that there are immigrants coming into this country all the time-some legal, some not-and many of them come here with no money and no means to work. They usually end up working sub-minimum wage under the table jobs if anything at all. If you can't speak english and aren't legal, what other choice do you have?
5)Working poor- The amount of people who work minimum wage jobs who can't afford housing has been rising since the 1970s. I don't see how you can say that they are lazy and incapable if they have jobs.
Make what conclusions you will based on homelessness. I'm not saying liberalism is the answer. But I know that the conservative myth that there is enough work and wealth out there for everyone is false. I think liberals need to be more honest about the fact that taxing the wealthy does greatly inhibit the creation of new jobs. But I also think that conservatives need to be more honest about the fact that our current capitalist system lets thousands upon thousands of people slip through the cracks who really don't have the means to afford housing and enough food. I know because I worked for a foundation that feeds and clothes homeless people. I met a lot of people and heard a lot of stories from people who ended up on the street who did everything in the power not to get there, they just fell on hard times and there was no one to help them through it financially.
One final fact to consider, the money it would take to effectively battle homelessness doesn't have to come from increased taxes, we could just spend less tax money on conservative agendas: The National Coaltion for the Homeless released a report that concluded that the amount of money spent on the first day of bombing against Iraq is enough put a roof over the head of every American's head 50 times over.
I really urge everyone to visit the national coaltion for the homeless' website www.nationalhomeless.org
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Ekstaza
stranger than most


Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5355454 - 03/01/06 10:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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What you want is communism and that simply doesn't work. Someone will always have more than someone else and that is because that person wants it more. Greed is a part of human nature. It is a survival mechanism that helps us to survive.
The guy in the street is there because he chooses to be there. The guy on Fifth Avenue is there because he chooses to be there.
If I work hard to get something in life, I don't owe anyone a damn thing, that didn't help me get it. My fellow man may profit from my generosity, but I am not obliged to give it to them. Screw that. Gifts are given freely.
No one deserves a damned thing that they don't earn for themselves. The rich may give their wealth to their children but that doesn't mean that the kids deserve it. They'll either squander it or just get by until they do. It's the poor kid that scratched and clawed his way up out of the gutter to sit across the table from the rich elite that'll have the guts and fire to win the day.
Serious question here: If everyone had the same amount of wealth, what incentive would anyone have for doing a damned thing? How would money be worth anything? You couldn't pay someone to do a job that you didn't want to do because there would be no people willing to do it. If there were people willing to do these dirty jobs, then they would soon have much more money than anyone else and therefore would become insanely rich. Once again your Utopia is destroyed.
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Ekstaza]
#5356174 - 03/02/06 01:50 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Greed is a part of human nature.
We learn to control many parts of human nature so we can live in a healthy society. Controlling greed is no different to controlling any other need. You don't go round jumping on every woman you see in the street beceause sex is a part of human nature do you?
It is a survival mechanism that helps us to survive.
Well we'd better learn another survival mechanism and fast because if everyone simply follows their own greed the world cannot sustain it. Greed is now helping to make life on earth extinct. We need to think what comes after greed if we wish to survive.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,460
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5356450 - 03/02/06 06:20 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Gluke stated:
3)Vietnam Vets- In my opinion these are the biggest victims of the Vietnam war. When our men came back from Vietnam, phyiscally and emotionally crippled by one of the most traumatic wars of the modern era, they were greeted by a government that was willing to pump billions into the battle, but only feeble amounts into the recovery for our soldiers. Many soldiers were treated for their wounds and then left to rot in massive understaffed hospitals for months, as the government neglected to even pay for their bus ticket back home from DC. The psychological effects of the war has put a large amount of vets also into the category of mentally ill, and unable to work or really function.
The really disturbing thing that no one is talking about is that the current Iraq war is having a lot of the same effects on soldiers as the Vietnam war had. We will be paying for this war for our whole lives, as we are creating a whole new generation of physically and emotionally crippled men.
Lets not forget how the American public, treated those vets when returning from war,also. Were was the common American when these deplorable conditions arose? Any protests on the behalf of our vets?
Lets not make the same mistake with our current Disabled Veterans returning home!!!!
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (03/02/06 06:22 AM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: gluke bastid]
#5356791 - 03/02/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
gluke bastid said:The National Coaltion for the Homeless released a report that concluded that the amount of money spent on the first day of bombing against Iraq is enough put a roof over the head of every American's head 50 times over.
Im gonna call your bluff and ask for a link. There is no way that one day of bombing cost as much money as housing for 15 billion people. That is a lie.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5357088 - 03/02/06 11:18 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lets not forget how the American public, treated those vets when returning from war,also. Were was the common American when these deplorable conditions arose? Any protests on the behalf of our vets?
Lets not make the same mistake with our current Disabled Veterans returning home!!!!
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Ekstaza]
#5357644 - 03/02/06 02:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ekstaza said: What you want is communism and that simply doesn't work. Someone will always have more than someone else and that is because that person wants it more. Greed is a part of human nature. It is a survival mechanism that helps us to survive.
Common horrendous counter-argument to socialism. Many Native American tribes disagree with your paragraph. What you are describing is the environment in capitalism. Capitalism breeds greed. Greed breeds feverish competition and crime. It has nothing to do with "human nature."
Quote:
The guy in the street is there because he chooses to be there. The guy on Fifth Avenue is there because he chooses to be there.
Homelessness among war veterans and the mentally ill are astronamically high. Pensioners are also struggling just to keep their head above water. Is this by choice? Is it because they are lazy?
Quote:
Serious question here: If everyone had the same amount of wealth, what incentive would anyone have for doing a damned thing? How would money be worth anything?
What makes you believe everyone would sit around eating Doritos and watching wrestling all day?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: bukkake]
#5359384 - 03/02/06 08:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
bukkake said:
Quote:
Ekstaza said: What you want is communism and that simply doesn't work. Someone will always have more than someone else and that is because that person wants it more. Greed is a part of human nature. It is a survival mechanism that helps us to survive.
Common horrendous counter-argument to socialism. Many Native American tribes disagree with your paragraph. What you are describing is the environment in capitalism. Capitalism breeds greed. Greed breeds feverish competition and crime. It has nothing to do with "human nature."
Actually, it's a pretty good argument against communism. Look at North Korea for example. The economy is heavily controlled and the leader of the country lives in palaces while his country starves. In the Soviet Union (where the communist movement was based) the rank and file populace lived pretty austere lives while the political elite enjoyed great privileges and access to things that the normal people didn't have. Greed seems to rear its head enough throughout various cultures and peoples through history that I think it is inherent within us humans.
Edited by RandalFlagg (03/02/06 08:31 PM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5359417 - 03/02/06 08:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:Greed seems to rear its head enough throughout various cultures and peoples through history that I think it is inherent within us humans.
Not only humans, but all living things. A tree spreads its leaves to absorb as much light as it can, denying the floor vegetation light. Animals compete with each other to take as much food and territory for themselves as they can. Hell, even my fish fight each other for food even though I over feed them and they are all fat.
It makes sense though, our evolution has been governed by natural selection, survival of the fittest. Greed is what made the human race what it is today, and is also responsible for the wondrous diversity of life we have on the planet.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: bukkake]
#5360355 - 03/03/06 01:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Many Native American tribes disagree with your paragraph. What you are describing is the environment in capitalism. Capitalism breeds greed. Greed breeds feverish competition and crime. It has nothing to do with "human nature."
Funnily enough I read accounts of when the rich had all their money taken from them during the spanish civil war and had to work for the same amount as everyone else after their initial shock some of them said it was the happiest time of their lives.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5360364 - 03/03/06 01:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Actually, it's a pretty good argument against communism. Look at North Korea for example. The economy is heavily controlled and the leader of the country lives in palaces while his country starves. In the Soviet Union (where the communist movement was based)
Did the soviet union really have much to do with communism?
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: DieCommie]
#5360378 - 03/03/06 01:22 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not only humans, but all living things. A tree spreads its leaves to absorb as much light as it can, denying the floor vegetation light
Nah, that's an extremely limited view of nature. There will be a million other living organisms that live off the tree co-existing and sharing the wealth of the tree in a "communist" paradise.
It makes sense though, our evolution has been governed by natural selection, survival of the fittest
No it hasn't. Human evolution has been governed by groups of people trying to live in society in harmony with each other. That's why we don't all go around hitting each other over the head with leadpipes. That's why if Bush had said "We're invading Iraq for the oil for our good and greed" most thinking people would have rejected it completly. People arn't just about greed.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5361301 - 03/03/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Not only humans, but all living things. A tree spreads its leaves to absorb as much light as it can, denying the floor vegetation light
Nah, that's an extremely limited view of nature. There will be a million other living organisms that live off the tree co-existing and sharing the wealth of the tree in a "communist" paradise.
No. There is no "sharing" of the weath. The tree takes as much rescources as it can. If some organism co-existing with it gives it higher chances of survival, then the tree will evolve to let the organism takes its small share. The tree dosent care about the million other organisms. Its not worried about there life, or if they are bieng expolited as workers. The tree does whats best for itself to propigate, period.
Quote:
Alex213 said:It makes sense though, our evolution has been governed by natural selection, survival of the fittest
No it hasn't. Human evolution has been governed by groups of people trying to live in society in harmony with each other.
So you dont believe in survival of the fittest. Ok, many religious people dont, I can accept that.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: DieCommie]
#5361307 - 03/03/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
gluke bastid said:The National Coaltion for the Homeless released a report that concluded that the amount of money spent on the first day of bombing against Iraq is enough put a roof over the head of every American's head 50 times over.
Im gonna call your bluff and ask for a link. There is no way that one day of bombing cost as much money as housing for 15 billion people. That is a lie.
Sorry, I typed that wrong. It should have read: enough to put a roof over the head of every homeless American's head 50 times over.
It is not "a lie," although since I am unable to find the numbers that back this online I can't give you a link, and therefore have no proof that I am not getting it wrong. However when I was working for the St. Anthony Foundation this information was sent to us by the President of the National Coalition for the Homeless and it was so striking it made an impact.
Whats important is the fact that the money to effectively fight homelessness is out there, and it is being wasted. It is not an impossible goal to provide long-term housing and health care safety nets for people who are working full time but don't have enough money to afford either because the minimum wage is not a living wage in most large cities http://www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts/Employment.pdf
On top of that, Bush continues to give federal tax breaks to people earning over 1 million dollars while cutting 1.6 billion from Federal Housing Aid http://www.nationalhomeless.org/housing/budgetfeb14.html
The rate of working homeless people is rising everyday. To me that is proof that the current Bush era slant on economics has been proven ineffective. I understand the theory behind trickle down economics as much as I understand the theory behind communism, but I've never seen any evidence that either one is anything besides a total disaster.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: DieCommie]
#5361383 - 03/03/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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No. There is no "sharing" of the weath.
No, I'm afraid there is. There are countless examples of animals and plants existing in mutually beneficial sharing of resources. Just open a book on nature and you'll be amazed.
The tree dosent care about the million other organisms
Well it probably doesn't "care" because I doubt trees have such emotions. What it does do is share it's wealth with millions of other creatures because that is it's best guarantee of survival.
So you dont believe in survival of the fittest
Do you seriously believe human societies are based around survival of the fittest for christ sake? Look out the window, can you see any old people? There's your theory gone.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?



Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5361748 - 03/03/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
How is it possible to be conservative?
How is it possible not to be?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#5361789 - 03/03/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum


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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5361871 - 03/03/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Alex213 said: No. There is no "sharing" of the weath.
No, I'm afraid there is. There are countless examples of animals and plants existing in mutually beneficial sharing of resources. Just open a book on nature and you'll be amazed.
The tree dosent care about the million other organisms
Well it probably doesn't "care" because I doubt trees have such emotions. What it does do is share it's wealth with millions of other creatures because that is it's best guarantee of survival.
So you dont believe in survival of the fittest
Do you seriously believe human societies are based around survival of the fittest for christ sake? Look out the window, can you see any old people? There's your theory gone.
It seems obvious to me that you're both equally right about the natural way of things. Tree doesn't have to care about other organisms. Tree doesn't have to care about itself more than other organisms.
I think its kind of silly to use your own personal subjective understanding of nature to defend either a liberal or conservative, respectively, political worldview, but maybe we all do it. So carry on.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: gluke bastid]
#5361928 - 03/03/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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No, you're right, it is silly. But he'll carry on nonetheless.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5363025 - 03/03/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Alex213 said: No. There is no "sharing" of the weath.
No, I'm afraid there is. There are countless examples of animals and plants existing in mutually beneficial sharing of resources. Just open a book on nature and you'll be amazed.
The tree dosent care about the million other organisms
Well it probably doesn't "care" because I doubt trees have such emotions. What it does do is share it's wealth with millions of other creatures because that is it's best guarantee of survival.
So you dont believe in survival of the fittest
Do you seriously believe human societies are based around survival of the fittest for christ sake? Look out the window, can you see any old people? There's your theory gone.
Your right. I made too strong of an assertion, all I wanted to show that greed is natural in all living things, not that it is the only thing driving life. And the fact that humans do care for the elderly says something. The church my partents draged me to used this as evidence for a soul or something that makes us better than animals now I think were just the best animal
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5363038 - 03/03/06 09:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Alex213 said: Do you seriously believe human societies are based around survival of the fittest for christ sake? Look out the window, can you see any old people? There's your theory gone.
Wow...
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5363637 - 03/04/06 01:47 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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RandalFlagg said: Actually, it's a pretty good argument against communism. Look at North Korea for example. The economy is heavily controlled and the leader of the country lives in palaces while his country starves. In the Soviet Union (where the communist movement was based) the rank and file populace lived pretty austere lives while the political elite enjoyed great privileges and access to things that the normal people didn't have. Greed seems to rear its head enough throughout various cultures and peoples through history that I think it is inherent within us humans.
You defined North Korea and Soviet Union accurately, but that is not communism. It is state capitalism. Both states are really very contradicting of communism.
Citing greed to human nature is giving a free pass to the oppression of capitalism. There is no scientific evidence it is true. Further, if it true were, there would be anarchy on the streets at the moment. It is a silly argument and sadly the most sourced, much like the excuse of war. "Well, it's human nature to fight and kill people..." No, it is not. If it were, we would have returning soldiers praising the horrors of war. Instead, returning war veterans rarely want to speak of their battlefield experiences. If every man for himself capitalism were human nature, we would not depend on anyone for anything. We would build our own homes, gather our own food. One's environment has as much to do as one's biology.
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Funnily enough I read accounts of when the rich had all their money taken from them during the spanish civil war and had to work for the same amount as everyone else after their initial shock some of them said it was the happiest time of their lives.
Capitalists are often befuddled when the egalitarian communities which cropped up during the Spanish Civil War are mentioned. They don't want to hear it.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: bukkake]
#5363862 - 03/04/06 08:01 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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bukkake stated: It is a silly argument and sadly the most sourced, much like the excuse of war. "Well, it's human nature to fight and kill people..." No, it is not.
Historically, since man has been intelligent enough to write things down for documentation, there has only been 365 years in recorded history, were there has not been a major war/conflict. Equate that with how old humanity is, and you get a numerical figure that shows a definite violent tendency. Humans, unlike any other species on the planet, partake in the most outright aggression and destruction on its own species.
Bukkake stated: If it were, we would have returning soldiers praising the horrors of war. Instead, returning war veterans rarely want to speak of their battlefield experiences
No, you are completely wrong. Just because some disabled veterans dont speak of the horrors of war (I am a disabled veteran) does not mean they feel guilty for what they did.
War is not a movie. It contains nothing but despair and TOTAL confusion. Most of the time veterans ponder why they lived and their best buddy on their left flank got fragged. Most veterans are not "glory hounds", and tell pumped up stories of grandeur and "how cool it was". Many, like myself, wonder if the war was worth fighting for, and question their actions, hence the "silence". PTSD is also a main culprit.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: bukkake]
#5363887 - 03/04/06 08:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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bukkake said: You defined North Korea and Soviet Union accurately, but that is not communism. It is state capitalism. Both states are really very contradicting of communism.
Those countries were most definately not capitalist.
I realize that both of those states never got close to living up to the "ideal communism" that was detailed by Marx. They were and are stuck in the "dictatorship of the proletariat" phase of the communist revolution. But, it is very telling that neither of those nations was ever able to get anywhere close to "real" communism....because it is an unnattainable goal.
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bukkake said: Citing greed to human nature is giving a free pass to the oppression of capitalism. There is no scientific evidence it is true.
Comrade, have you ever seen scientific studies where someone's "reward section" of their brain lights up when they get something? That is proof right there that people want stuff and they want to improve their situation.
Also, we have a significant amount of human history at our disposal. Have you noticed any consisent human behavior throughout the ages? I have noticed war, conflict, and selfishness when I examine past civilizations.
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bukkake said: "Well, it's human nature to fight and kill people..." No, it is not. If it were, we would have returning soldiers praising the horrors of war. Instead, returning war veterans rarely want to speak of their battlefield experiences.
I never said that war was enjoyable...only that it seems to be a natural part of being human.
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bukkake said: If every man for himself capitalism were human nature, we would not depend on anyone for anything. We would build our own homes, gather our own food.
Human nature is much more complicated than that. Humans experience and act out all kinds of attitudes and emotions. We are capable of intense greed and we are capable of intense empathy. Sometimes we cooperate and sometimes we don't. The fact that human behavior is so chaotic makes any "utopian" ideal impossible to attain or maintain.
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bukkake said: Capitalists are often befuddled when the egalitarian communities which cropped up during the Spanish Civil War are mentioned. They don't want to hear it.
And if these egalitarian communities were our "true" and "enlightened" destiny, why did they last for such a short time? If it is our natural inclination to live like that why aren't they springing up everywhere? What happened when Franco came on the scene? As I said before, these "egalitarian utopian communes" that Lefties seem to pine for cannot be attained and maintained.
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5363897 - 03/04/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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the tragic thing in america is that our two party system has only helped to feed the very common misconception that if one extreme is wrong, they have to go all the way to the other extreme to be right.
Hardcore conservatism is not a good idea, no. It's not very sensible. But the truth is it's equally as fucked up as hardcore liberalism. The most reasonable answers always lie somewhere in between the two bickering masses of idiots who think that the answer always lies all-or-nothin on one side or the other.
Liberals regularly fuck things up, and when a conservative comes into power, they may be able to fix what the liberal fucked up, only to fuck something up themselves that needs a liberal to repair.
The logical conclusion is that they're both fucktards and that a compromise is in order. The best policy solution is normally a healthy blend of ideas from conservatives and ideas from liberals.
If the two political parties actually attempted to cooperate for the good of the country rather than spending their entire lives saying how much the other party sucks (which they say just because they want to obtain or keep their political jobs, rather than for any constructive reason), then we'd see a lot better results.
Assuming a liberal position just because conservatism is wrong is just like moving to antarctica because you thought death valley was too hot. You've gone from one sort of fucked up to the opposite sort of fucked up, but you've experienced exacly zero improvement.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Konnrade]
#5363905 - 03/04/06 08:31 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Konnrade said: the tragic thing in america is that our two party system has only helped to feed the very common misconception that if one extreme is wrong, they have to go all the way to the other extreme to be right.
That is an astute observation of political realities and human nature. However, this desire to rectify things with "extreme action" has occurred in many nations (not just modern day America).
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Konnrade said: Hardcore conservatism is not a good idea, no. It's not very sensible. But the truth is it's equally as fucked up as hardcore liberalism. The most reasonable answers always lie somewhere in between the two bickering masses of idiots who think that the answer always lies all-or-nothin on one side or the other.
*Gasp!* Somebody else sees the light!
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Konnrade
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5364933 - 03/04/06 03:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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RandalFlagg said:
Quote:
Konnrade said: the tragic thing in america is that our two party system has only helped to feed the very common misconception that if one extreme is wrong, they have to go all the way to the other extreme to be right.
That is an astute observation of political realities and human nature. However, this desire to rectify things with "extreme action" has occurred in many nations (not just modern day America).
True, it's hardly isolated to america. All people have a tendency to do that.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum


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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Konnrade]
#5368359 - 03/05/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Konnrade said: Liberals regularly fuck things up, and when a conservative comes into power, they may be able to fix what the liberal fucked up, only to fuck something up themselves that needs a liberal to repair.
The logical conclusion is that they're both fucktards and that a compromise is in order.
Bravo!
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Konnrade
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: gluke bastid]
#5368520 - 03/05/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I often think it would be fun to spend a day in John Stewart's shoes.
Except today... so many cameras
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5374871 - 03/07/06 04:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Equate that with how old humanity is, and you get a numerical figure that shows a definite violent tendency. Humans, unlike any other species on the planet, partake in the most outright aggression and destruction on its own species.
You stand by 100,000 to 200,000 years of warring and barbarism from humans?
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No, you are completely wrong. Just because some disabled veterans dont speak of the horrors of war (I am a disabled veteran) does not mean they feel guilty for what they did.
No, I am not 'completely wrong.' You just happened to misread what I said. I was suggesting if things such as violence and greed were spontaneous urges, we would have veterans returning excitedly.
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Comrade, have you ever seen scientific studies where someone's "reward section" of their brain lights up when they get something? That is proof right there that people want stuff and they want to improve their situation.
Also, we have a significant amount of human history at our disposal. Have you noticed any consisent human behavior throughout the ages? I have noticed war, conflict, and selfishness when I examine past civilizations.
People have necessities. That does not necessarily mean they want and want until they cannot have anymore.
We have a very limited amount of human history at our disposal. Thousand year old artefacts, remnants, and documents are uncovered constantly which contradict history as we know it. It is premature to be certain it is nature over nurture taking into account the limited knowledge we do know about human history. I am more inclined to compare and contrast our culture with different, less consumerist and individualistic cultures. Cultural environmental factors such as values and norms vary wildly and I believe make a person the bulk of what they are.
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And if these egalitarian communities were our "true" and "enlightened" destiny, why did they last for such a short time? If it is our natural inclination to live like that why aren't they springing up everywhere? What happened when Franco came on the scene? As I said before, these "egalitarian utopian communes" that Lefties seem to pine for cannot be attained and maintained.
The bomb and the gun from the sheepherders of capitalism happened.
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Dmonikal
Bareback up inthis neden


Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 474
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: bukkake]
#5375400 - 03/07/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Fuck all governments. Capitalism is the rich robbing you and calling it democracy.
-------------------- Give your money or your life Take 'em both for all I care Dump your bullets right here
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