|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5363025 - 03/03/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Alex213 said: No. There is no "sharing" of the weath.
No, I'm afraid there is. There are countless examples of animals and plants existing in mutually beneficial sharing of resources. Just open a book on nature and you'll be amazed.
The tree dosent care about the million other organisms
Well it probably doesn't "care" because I doubt trees have such emotions. What it does do is share it's wealth with millions of other creatures because that is it's best guarantee of survival.
So you dont believe in survival of the fittest
Do you seriously believe human societies are based around survival of the fittest for christ sake? Look out the window, can you see any old people? There's your theory gone.
Your right. I made too strong of an assertion, all I wanted to show that greed is natural in all living things, not that it is the only thing driving life. And the fact that humans do care for the elderly says something. The church my partents draged me to used this as evidence for a soul or something that makes us better than animals now I think were just the best animal
|
it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
|
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5363038 - 03/03/06 09:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Alex213 said: Do you seriously believe human societies are based around survival of the fittest for christ sake? Look out the window, can you see any old people? There's your theory gone.
Wow...
|
bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
|
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5363637 - 03/04/06 01:47 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
RandalFlagg said: Actually, it's a pretty good argument against communism. Look at North Korea for example. The economy is heavily controlled and the leader of the country lives in palaces while his country starves. In the Soviet Union (where the communist movement was based) the rank and file populace lived pretty austere lives while the political elite enjoyed great privileges and access to things that the normal people didn't have. Greed seems to rear its head enough throughout various cultures and peoples through history that I think it is inherent within us humans.
You defined North Korea and Soviet Union accurately, but that is not communism. It is state capitalism. Both states are really very contradicting of communism.
Citing greed to human nature is giving a free pass to the oppression of capitalism. There is no scientific evidence it is true. Further, if it true were, there would be anarchy on the streets at the moment. It is a silly argument and sadly the most sourced, much like the excuse of war. "Well, it's human nature to fight and kill people..." No, it is not. If it were, we would have returning soldiers praising the horrors of war. Instead, returning war veterans rarely want to speak of their battlefield experiences. If every man for himself capitalism were human nature, we would not depend on anyone for anything. We would build our own homes, gather our own food. One's environment has as much to do as one's biology.
Quote:
Funnily enough I read accounts of when the rich had all their money taken from them during the spanish civil war and had to work for the same amount as everyone else after their initial shock some of them said it was the happiest time of their lives.
Capitalists are often befuddled when the egalitarian communities which cropped up during the Spanish Civil War are mentioned. They don't want to hear it.
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,460
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 hour, 1 minute
|
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: bukkake]
#5363862 - 03/04/06 08:01 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
bukkake stated: It is a silly argument and sadly the most sourced, much like the excuse of war. "Well, it's human nature to fight and kill people..." No, it is not.
Historically, since man has been intelligent enough to write things down for documentation, there has only been 365 years in recorded history, were there has not been a major war/conflict. Equate that with how old humanity is, and you get a numerical figure that shows a definite violent tendency. Humans, unlike any other species on the planet, partake in the most outright aggression and destruction on its own species.
Bukkake stated: If it were, we would have returning soldiers praising the horrors of war. Instead, returning war veterans rarely want to speak of their battlefield experiences
No, you are completely wrong. Just because some disabled veterans dont speak of the horrors of war (I am a disabled veteran) does not mean they feel guilty for what they did.
War is not a movie. It contains nothing but despair and TOTAL confusion. Most of the time veterans ponder why they lived and their best buddy on their left flank got fragged. Most veterans are not "glory hounds", and tell pumped up stories of grandeur and "how cool it was". Many, like myself, wonder if the war was worth fighting for, and question their actions, hence the "silence". PTSD is also a main culprit.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: bukkake]
#5363887 - 03/04/06 08:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bukkake said: You defined North Korea and Soviet Union accurately, but that is not communism. It is state capitalism. Both states are really very contradicting of communism.
Those countries were most definately not capitalist.
I realize that both of those states never got close to living up to the "ideal communism" that was detailed by Marx. They were and are stuck in the "dictatorship of the proletariat" phase of the communist revolution. But, it is very telling that neither of those nations was ever able to get anywhere close to "real" communism....because it is an unnattainable goal.
Quote:
bukkake said: Citing greed to human nature is giving a free pass to the oppression of capitalism. There is no scientific evidence it is true.
Comrade, have you ever seen scientific studies where someone's "reward section" of their brain lights up when they get something? That is proof right there that people want stuff and they want to improve their situation.
Also, we have a significant amount of human history at our disposal. Have you noticed any consisent human behavior throughout the ages? I have noticed war, conflict, and selfishness when I examine past civilizations.
Quote:
bukkake said: "Well, it's human nature to fight and kill people..." No, it is not. If it were, we would have returning soldiers praising the horrors of war. Instead, returning war veterans rarely want to speak of their battlefield experiences.
I never said that war was enjoyable...only that it seems to be a natural part of being human.
Quote:
bukkake said: If every man for himself capitalism were human nature, we would not depend on anyone for anything. We would build our own homes, gather our own food.
Human nature is much more complicated than that. Humans experience and act out all kinds of attitudes and emotions. We are capable of intense greed and we are capable of intense empathy. Sometimes we cooperate and sometimes we don't. The fact that human behavior is so chaotic makes any "utopian" ideal impossible to attain or maintain.
Quote:
bukkake said: Capitalists are often befuddled when the egalitarian communities which cropped up during the Spanish Civil War are mentioned. They don't want to hear it.
And if these egalitarian communities were our "true" and "enlightened" destiny, why did they last for such a short time? If it is our natural inclination to live like that why aren't they springing up everywhere? What happened when Franco came on the scene? As I said before, these "egalitarian utopian communes" that Lefties seem to pine for cannot be attained and maintained.
|
Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
Loc: LA Suburbs
Last seen: 8 months, 26 days
|
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5363897 - 03/04/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
the tragic thing in america is that our two party system has only helped to feed the very common misconception that if one extreme is wrong, they have to go all the way to the other extreme to be right.
Hardcore conservatism is not a good idea, no. It's not very sensible. But the truth is it's equally as fucked up as hardcore liberalism. The most reasonable answers always lie somewhere in between the two bickering masses of idiots who think that the answer always lies all-or-nothin on one side or the other.
Liberals regularly fuck things up, and when a conservative comes into power, they may be able to fix what the liberal fucked up, only to fuck something up themselves that needs a liberal to repair.
The logical conclusion is that they're both fucktards and that a compromise is in order. The best policy solution is normally a healthy blend of ideas from conservatives and ideas from liberals.
If the two political parties actually attempted to cooperate for the good of the country rather than spending their entire lives saying how much the other party sucks (which they say just because they want to obtain or keep their political jobs, rather than for any constructive reason), then we'd see a lot better results.
Assuming a liberal position just because conservatism is wrong is just like moving to antarctica because you thought death valley was too hot. You've gone from one sort of fucked up to the opposite sort of fucked up, but you've experienced exacly zero improvement.
--------------------
I find your lack of faith disturbing
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Konnrade]
#5363905 - 03/04/06 08:31 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Konnrade said: the tragic thing in america is that our two party system has only helped to feed the very common misconception that if one extreme is wrong, they have to go all the way to the other extreme to be right.
That is an astute observation of political realities and human nature. However, this desire to rectify things with "extreme action" has occurred in many nations (not just modern day America).
Quote:
Konnrade said: Hardcore conservatism is not a good idea, no. It's not very sensible. But the truth is it's equally as fucked up as hardcore liberalism. The most reasonable answers always lie somewhere in between the two bickering masses of idiots who think that the answer always lies all-or-nothin on one side or the other.
*Gasp!* Somebody else sees the light!
|
Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
Loc: LA Suburbs
Last seen: 8 months, 26 days
|
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5364933 - 03/04/06 03:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
Quote:
Konnrade said: the tragic thing in america is that our two party system has only helped to feed the very common misconception that if one extreme is wrong, they have to go all the way to the other extreme to be right.
That is an astute observation of political realities and human nature. However, this desire to rectify things with "extreme action" has occurred in many nations (not just modern day America).
True, it's hardly isolated to america. All people have a tendency to do that.
--------------------
I find your lack of faith disturbing
|
gluke bastid
Stinky Bum


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
|
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Konnrade]
#5368359 - 03/05/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Konnrade said: Liberals regularly fuck things up, and when a conservative comes into power, they may be able to fix what the liberal fucked up, only to fuck something up themselves that needs a liberal to repair.
The logical conclusion is that they're both fucktards and that a compromise is in order.
Bravo!
--------------------
Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
|
Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
Loc: LA Suburbs
Last seen: 8 months, 26 days
|
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: gluke bastid]
#5368520 - 03/05/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I often think it would be fun to spend a day in John Stewart's shoes.
Except today... so many cameras
--------------------
I find your lack of faith disturbing
|
bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
|
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5374871 - 03/07/06 04:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Equate that with how old humanity is, and you get a numerical figure that shows a definite violent tendency. Humans, unlike any other species on the planet, partake in the most outright aggression and destruction on its own species.
You stand by 100,000 to 200,000 years of warring and barbarism from humans?
Quote:
No, you are completely wrong. Just because some disabled veterans dont speak of the horrors of war (I am a disabled veteran) does not mean they feel guilty for what they did.
No, I am not 'completely wrong.' You just happened to misread what I said. I was suggesting if things such as violence and greed were spontaneous urges, we would have veterans returning excitedly.
Quote:
Comrade, have you ever seen scientific studies where someone's "reward section" of their brain lights up when they get something? That is proof right there that people want stuff and they want to improve their situation.
Also, we have a significant amount of human history at our disposal. Have you noticed any consisent human behavior throughout the ages? I have noticed war, conflict, and selfishness when I examine past civilizations.
People have necessities. That does not necessarily mean they want and want until they cannot have anymore.
We have a very limited amount of human history at our disposal. Thousand year old artefacts, remnants, and documents are uncovered constantly which contradict history as we know it. It is premature to be certain it is nature over nurture taking into account the limited knowledge we do know about human history. I am more inclined to compare and contrast our culture with different, less consumerist and individualistic cultures. Cultural environmental factors such as values and norms vary wildly and I believe make a person the bulk of what they are.
Quote:
And if these egalitarian communities were our "true" and "enlightened" destiny, why did they last for such a short time? If it is our natural inclination to live like that why aren't they springing up everywhere? What happened when Franco came on the scene? As I said before, these "egalitarian utopian communes" that Lefties seem to pine for cannot be attained and maintained.
The bomb and the gun from the sheepherders of capitalism happened.
|
Dmonikal
Bareback up inthis neden


Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 474
|
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: bukkake]
#5375400 - 03/07/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Fuck all governments. Capitalism is the rich robbing you and calling it democracy.
-------------------- Give your money or your life Take 'em both for all I care Dump your bullets right here
|
|