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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5354342 - 03/01/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Alex has, as usual, lobbed a softball.
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Alex213 said: On the other hand...
What percentage of taxes are paid by the wealthiest 5% of Americans? The wealthiest 5 percent have 59% of the wealth and pay 38.4 percent of federal taxes. The wealthiest 1 percent have over 38 percent of the wealth and pay 24.8 percent of federal taxes. These households have an average wealth of $10.2 million and pay only 3.5 percent of their wealth in taxes. By way of comparison, the bottom 40 percent of taxpayers have an average net wealth of $1,100 and pay 163 percent of their net wealth in taxes.
There's a good reason why income is taxed as opposed to wealth. Let's consider just what constitutes wealth. Wealth encompasses the value of what one owns. Cash in savings accounts. Equity on your home and other possessions. Stocks. Bonds. Other items of REAL value. Stop the bus right there. These things generally earn a net income of around 5%. Some less, some more, none wildly different unless your stock was Microsoft at $2 or your neighbohood went nuts.
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If all taxpayers paid the same 10.5 percent of their wealth in taxes as median income families pay, the taxes of the lowest 40 percent would be cut by 94 percent while the taxes of the wealthiest would triple.
If you paid 10% of your wealth in taxes instead of your income you would be losing on every investment. Every single one. Why own anything. Your grandma living off her savings and investments would be competely fucked. Only a retard would put money in a savings account and you'd be losing money on your house every year. No one would own stocks. Wealth, as we know it, would be extinct. As it is, the lowest 40% live off the rich mans titty. And they'd never get any better because it would be counterproductive to accrue wealth since the taxation on it would outpace the gains.
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Source: Congressional Budget Office and United for a Fair Economy
In Minnesota how does the rate of taxation paid by people making over $845,000 compare with the rate of taxation paid by those making less than $27,000 per year?
When all state and local taxes are considered, Minnesotans making more than $845,000 a year will pay 7.7% of their income in taxes, while those making less than $27,000 a year will pay 11.3%. That's an effective rate nearly one and a half times higher than the top end.
http://www.osjspm.org/101_taxes.htm#8
Some taxes are capped or are actually pegged to the value of something you own. Capped taxes include soc sec and medicare. You pay a percentage of income up to a certain level. Then you don't. You also aren't eligible for benefits if you make too much in medicare and soc sec is a ponzi scheme joke and the benefits are capped. But it's 15% (combined) of your income up to around $125,000. Is it a smaller % for people above that? Of course. Do they get greater benefits? No. As to property taxes, sure they consume a higher percentage of lower income earners. That's because the cost of the house they own is a greater percentage of their wealth. It's also more leveraged. That is, the percentage of equity paid in property taxes is higher if you owe money than it is if you own the house outright. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that, it just means it skews the stats of percentage of taxes paid if you don't think. Simple example: Edgar owns a $300,000 house. He just bought it with an 80% loan so his equity stake is $60,000. Rodney bought a similar house 30 years ago and his note is paid up so he has an equity stake of $300,000. They have the same house. Do you think that Rodney should pay 5 times the taxes as Edgar? Alex does.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: DieCommie]
#5355229 - 03/01/06 09:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: Everybody I know who turned out to be a bum both wants to be there and is lazy. Im not saying everyone is, but everyone I know is. Dont think I being "insensitive" to real adversity. My own little brother is homeless, along with my best friend from teenage years. I, and my family tried so hard to help each of them by giving, giving, and giving. What do they do? Take, take, and take. IMO, the vast majority of homeless people could not ever hold a job, or lead a emotionally stable life, no matter what opportunities are given to them.
Of course there is the select few who are born with mental problems or got sick, and they should be helped. And guess what? They are. I guarantee you in every major city (including LA) you will find kitchens whose sole purpose is to give out food for free! (I know, I did community service in one) Can you not appreciate how amazingly wonderful this is? How many cultures in history have had the wealth and compassion to give free food to the needy and the lazy? Growing up we got food from the food bank regularly (because my dad is lazy). The food we got was great, not just rice or corn, but meat and pre-packaged food. It was a real treat for my brother and I.
Bottom line is poverty in America is exaggerated by some people for one reason or another. There is nobody starving in America. This is what real poverty looks like
 And this is what gets me worked up and emotional. We live in the richest country that ever existed, where the "poor" are suffering from an epidemic of obesity, yet still some of us complain when we dont get enough luxury and claim we are in poverty if we dont have luxury.
This is just your perspective, but I think you misunderstand homelessness in America. By percentage, the most common types of homeless people in America fit into the following categories:
1)Mentally Ill- Back in the day, the government used to just put anyone who was unable to function due to mental illness into asylums. These were places where people with everything from schizophrenia to severe autism were basically locked up and looked after but not attended to in any psychologically beneficial way. In the 60s it was decided that this was wrong, and state after state simply cut funding for asylums and the inpatients were released, simply turned out onto the street without any means to function socially due to neglect. Clearly if you can't function socially, you can't hold any type of job.
2)Elderly- Many many homeless people are senior citizens who are experiencing homelessness for the first time in their lives. They may have worked their whole lives, even making enough money to buy homes and send their children to school. But pensions today are no longer what they used to be, and life's expenses have become increasingly difficult to attain. These people are too old to work, and for a variety of reasons there is no one able or willing to support them financially. Social Security checks, after taxes, average less than $500 a month. Try paying rent and living on less than $500 a month. Its not possible.
3)Vietnam Vets- In my opinion these are the biggest victims of the Vietnam war. When our men came back from Vietnam, phyiscally and emotionally crippled by one of the most traumatic wars of the modern era, they were greeted by a government that was willing to pump billions into the battle, but only feeble amounts into the recovery for our soldiers. Many soldiers were treated for their wounds and then left to rot in massive understaffed hospitals for months, as the government neglected to even pay for their bus ticket back home from DC. The psychological effects of the war has put a large amount of vets also into the category of mentally ill, and unable to work or really function.
The really disturbing thing that no one is talking about is that the current Iraq war is having a lot of the same effects on soldiers as the Vietnam war had. We will be paying for this war for our whole lives, as we are creating a whole new generation of physically and emotionally crippled men.
4)Immigrants- Say what you will about immigration, I know the right likes to bash border jumpers. But the fact remains that there are immigrants coming into this country all the time-some legal, some not-and many of them come here with no money and no means to work. They usually end up working sub-minimum wage under the table jobs if anything at all. If you can't speak english and aren't legal, what other choice do you have?
5)Working poor- The amount of people who work minimum wage jobs who can't afford housing has been rising since the 1970s. I don't see how you can say that they are lazy and incapable if they have jobs.
Make what conclusions you will based on homelessness. I'm not saying liberalism is the answer. But I know that the conservative myth that there is enough work and wealth out there for everyone is false. I think liberals need to be more honest about the fact that taxing the wealthy does greatly inhibit the creation of new jobs. But I also think that conservatives need to be more honest about the fact that our current capitalist system lets thousands upon thousands of people slip through the cracks who really don't have the means to afford housing and enough food. I know because I worked for a foundation that feeds and clothes homeless people. I met a lot of people and heard a lot of stories from people who ended up on the street who did everything in the power not to get there, they just fell on hard times and there was no one to help them through it financially.
One final fact to consider, the money it would take to effectively battle homelessness doesn't have to come from increased taxes, we could just spend less tax money on conservative agendas: The National Coaltion for the Homeless released a report that concluded that the amount of money spent on the first day of bombing against Iraq is enough put a roof over the head of every American's head 50 times over.
I really urge everyone to visit the national coaltion for the homeless' website www.nationalhomeless.org
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Ekstaza
stranger than most


Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5355454 - 03/01/06 10:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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What you want is communism and that simply doesn't work. Someone will always have more than someone else and that is because that person wants it more. Greed is a part of human nature. It is a survival mechanism that helps us to survive.
The guy in the street is there because he chooses to be there. The guy on Fifth Avenue is there because he chooses to be there.
If I work hard to get something in life, I don't owe anyone a damn thing, that didn't help me get it. My fellow man may profit from my generosity, but I am not obliged to give it to them. Screw that. Gifts are given freely.
No one deserves a damned thing that they don't earn for themselves. The rich may give their wealth to their children but that doesn't mean that the kids deserve it. They'll either squander it or just get by until they do. It's the poor kid that scratched and clawed his way up out of the gutter to sit across the table from the rich elite that'll have the guts and fire to win the day.
Serious question here: If everyone had the same amount of wealth, what incentive would anyone have for doing a damned thing? How would money be worth anything? You couldn't pay someone to do a job that you didn't want to do because there would be no people willing to do it. If there were people willing to do these dirty jobs, then they would soon have much more money than anyone else and therefore would become insanely rich. Once again your Utopia is destroyed.
-------------------- YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Ekstaza]
#5356174 - 03/02/06 01:50 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Greed is a part of human nature.
We learn to control many parts of human nature so we can live in a healthy society. Controlling greed is no different to controlling any other need. You don't go round jumping on every woman you see in the street beceause sex is a part of human nature do you?
It is a survival mechanism that helps us to survive.
Well we'd better learn another survival mechanism and fast because if everyone simply follows their own greed the world cannot sustain it. Greed is now helping to make life on earth extinct. We need to think what comes after greed if we wish to survive.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,460
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 1 hour, 25 minutes
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5356450 - 03/02/06 06:20 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Gluke stated:
3)Vietnam Vets- In my opinion these are the biggest victims of the Vietnam war. When our men came back from Vietnam, phyiscally and emotionally crippled by one of the most traumatic wars of the modern era, they were greeted by a government that was willing to pump billions into the battle, but only feeble amounts into the recovery for our soldiers. Many soldiers were treated for their wounds and then left to rot in massive understaffed hospitals for months, as the government neglected to even pay for their bus ticket back home from DC. The psychological effects of the war has put a large amount of vets also into the category of mentally ill, and unable to work or really function.
The really disturbing thing that no one is talking about is that the current Iraq war is having a lot of the same effects on soldiers as the Vietnam war had. We will be paying for this war for our whole lives, as we are creating a whole new generation of physically and emotionally crippled men.
Lets not forget how the American public, treated those vets when returning from war,also. Were was the common American when these deplorable conditions arose? Any protests on the behalf of our vets?
Lets not make the same mistake with our current Disabled Veterans returning home!!!!
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (03/02/06 06:22 AM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: gluke bastid]
#5356791 - 03/02/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
gluke bastid said:The National Coaltion for the Homeless released a report that concluded that the amount of money spent on the first day of bombing against Iraq is enough put a roof over the head of every American's head 50 times over.
Im gonna call your bluff and ask for a link. There is no way that one day of bombing cost as much money as housing for 15 billion people. That is a lie.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5357088 - 03/02/06 11:18 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lets not forget how the American public, treated those vets when returning from war,also. Were was the common American when these deplorable conditions arose? Any protests on the behalf of our vets?
Lets not make the same mistake with our current Disabled Veterans returning home!!!!
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bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Ekstaza]
#5357644 - 03/02/06 02:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ekstaza said: What you want is communism and that simply doesn't work. Someone will always have more than someone else and that is because that person wants it more. Greed is a part of human nature. It is a survival mechanism that helps us to survive.
Common horrendous counter-argument to socialism. Many Native American tribes disagree with your paragraph. What you are describing is the environment in capitalism. Capitalism breeds greed. Greed breeds feverish competition and crime. It has nothing to do with "human nature."
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The guy in the street is there because he chooses to be there. The guy on Fifth Avenue is there because he chooses to be there.
Homelessness among war veterans and the mentally ill are astronamically high. Pensioners are also struggling just to keep their head above water. Is this by choice? Is it because they are lazy?
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Serious question here: If everyone had the same amount of wealth, what incentive would anyone have for doing a damned thing? How would money be worth anything?
What makes you believe everyone would sit around eating Doritos and watching wrestling all day?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: bukkake]
#5359384 - 03/02/06 08:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
bukkake said:
Quote:
Ekstaza said: What you want is communism and that simply doesn't work. Someone will always have more than someone else and that is because that person wants it more. Greed is a part of human nature. It is a survival mechanism that helps us to survive.
Common horrendous counter-argument to socialism. Many Native American tribes disagree with your paragraph. What you are describing is the environment in capitalism. Capitalism breeds greed. Greed breeds feverish competition and crime. It has nothing to do with "human nature."
Actually, it's a pretty good argument against communism. Look at North Korea for example. The economy is heavily controlled and the leader of the country lives in palaces while his country starves. In the Soviet Union (where the communist movement was based) the rank and file populace lived pretty austere lives while the political elite enjoyed great privileges and access to things that the normal people didn't have. Greed seems to rear its head enough throughout various cultures and peoples through history that I think it is inherent within us humans.
Edited by RandalFlagg (03/02/06 08:31 PM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5359417 - 03/02/06 08:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:Greed seems to rear its head enough throughout various cultures and peoples through history that I think it is inherent within us humans.
Not only humans, but all living things. A tree spreads its leaves to absorb as much light as it can, denying the floor vegetation light. Animals compete with each other to take as much food and territory for themselves as they can. Hell, even my fish fight each other for food even though I over feed them and they are all fat.
It makes sense though, our evolution has been governed by natural selection, survival of the fittest. Greed is what made the human race what it is today, and is also responsible for the wondrous diversity of life we have on the planet.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: bukkake]
#5360355 - 03/03/06 01:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Many Native American tribes disagree with your paragraph. What you are describing is the environment in capitalism. Capitalism breeds greed. Greed breeds feverish competition and crime. It has nothing to do with "human nature."
Funnily enough I read accounts of when the rich had all their money taken from them during the spanish civil war and had to work for the same amount as everyone else after their initial shock some of them said it was the happiest time of their lives.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5360364 - 03/03/06 01:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Actually, it's a pretty good argument against communism. Look at North Korea for example. The economy is heavily controlled and the leader of the country lives in palaces while his country starves. In the Soviet Union (where the communist movement was based)
Did the soviet union really have much to do with communism?
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: DieCommie]
#5360378 - 03/03/06 01:22 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not only humans, but all living things. A tree spreads its leaves to absorb as much light as it can, denying the floor vegetation light
Nah, that's an extremely limited view of nature. There will be a million other living organisms that live off the tree co-existing and sharing the wealth of the tree in a "communist" paradise.
It makes sense though, our evolution has been governed by natural selection, survival of the fittest
No it hasn't. Human evolution has been governed by groups of people trying to live in society in harmony with each other. That's why we don't all go around hitting each other over the head with leadpipes. That's why if Bush had said "We're invading Iraq for the oil for our good and greed" most thinking people would have rejected it completly. People arn't just about greed.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5361301 - 03/03/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Not only humans, but all living things. A tree spreads its leaves to absorb as much light as it can, denying the floor vegetation light
Nah, that's an extremely limited view of nature. There will be a million other living organisms that live off the tree co-existing and sharing the wealth of the tree in a "communist" paradise.
No. There is no "sharing" of the weath. The tree takes as much rescources as it can. If some organism co-existing with it gives it higher chances of survival, then the tree will evolve to let the organism takes its small share. The tree dosent care about the million other organisms. Its not worried about there life, or if they are bieng expolited as workers. The tree does whats best for itself to propigate, period.
Quote:
Alex213 said:It makes sense though, our evolution has been governed by natural selection, survival of the fittest
No it hasn't. Human evolution has been governed by groups of people trying to live in society in harmony with each other.
So you dont believe in survival of the fittest. Ok, many religious people dont, I can accept that.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: DieCommie]
#5361307 - 03/03/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
gluke bastid said:The National Coaltion for the Homeless released a report that concluded that the amount of money spent on the first day of bombing against Iraq is enough put a roof over the head of every American's head 50 times over.
Im gonna call your bluff and ask for a link. There is no way that one day of bombing cost as much money as housing for 15 billion people. That is a lie.
Sorry, I typed that wrong. It should have read: enough to put a roof over the head of every homeless American's head 50 times over.
It is not "a lie," although since I am unable to find the numbers that back this online I can't give you a link, and therefore have no proof that I am not getting it wrong. However when I was working for the St. Anthony Foundation this information was sent to us by the President of the National Coalition for the Homeless and it was so striking it made an impact.
Whats important is the fact that the money to effectively fight homelessness is out there, and it is being wasted. It is not an impossible goal to provide long-term housing and health care safety nets for people who are working full time but don't have enough money to afford either because the minimum wage is not a living wage in most large cities http://www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts/Employment.pdf
On top of that, Bush continues to give federal tax breaks to people earning over 1 million dollars while cutting 1.6 billion from Federal Housing Aid http://www.nationalhomeless.org/housing/budgetfeb14.html
The rate of working homeless people is rising everyday. To me that is proof that the current Bush era slant on economics has been proven ineffective. I understand the theory behind trickle down economics as much as I understand the theory behind communism, but I've never seen any evidence that either one is anything besides a total disaster.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: DieCommie]
#5361383 - 03/03/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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No. There is no "sharing" of the weath.
No, I'm afraid there is. There are countless examples of animals and plants existing in mutually beneficial sharing of resources. Just open a book on nature and you'll be amazed.
The tree dosent care about the million other organisms
Well it probably doesn't "care" because I doubt trees have such emotions. What it does do is share it's wealth with millions of other creatures because that is it's best guarantee of survival.
So you dont believe in survival of the fittest
Do you seriously believe human societies are based around survival of the fittest for christ sake? Look out the window, can you see any old people? There's your theory gone.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?



Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5361748 - 03/03/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
How is it possible to be conservative?
How is it possible not to be?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#5361789 - 03/03/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5361871 - 03/03/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: No. There is no "sharing" of the weath.
No, I'm afraid there is. There are countless examples of animals and plants existing in mutually beneficial sharing of resources. Just open a book on nature and you'll be amazed.
The tree dosent care about the million other organisms
Well it probably doesn't "care" because I doubt trees have such emotions. What it does do is share it's wealth with millions of other creatures because that is it's best guarantee of survival.
So you dont believe in survival of the fittest
Do you seriously believe human societies are based around survival of the fittest for christ sake? Look out the window, can you see any old people? There's your theory gone.
It seems obvious to me that you're both equally right about the natural way of things. Tree doesn't have to care about other organisms. Tree doesn't have to care about itself more than other organisms.
I think its kind of silly to use your own personal subjective understanding of nature to defend either a liberal or conservative, respectively, political worldview, but maybe we all do it. So carry on.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: gluke bastid]
#5361928 - 03/03/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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No, you're right, it is silly. But he'll carry on nonetheless.
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