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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
#5349892 - 02/28/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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How is it possible to be conservative?
a lot of people get that way from studying economics and\or history.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: d33p]
#5349939 - 02/28/06 03:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said:And finally i completely disagree that one person or a group of people being rich in America deprives anyone else of anything.
Awsome point
The poor in america are catagorized by what they have compared to the rich. If my lifestyle went unchanged, and Bill Gates doubled in wealth, I would for some reason be seen as twice as poor. Taken to the extreme, if Bill Gates suddenly had 100x the wealth, I would be considered very poor yet have no change to my lifestyle (same food, electricity, etc.).
Moral of the story is, it dosent matter how much the rich have, it matters how little the poor have. If the poor get richer at a rate of 2x and the rich get richer at the rate of 3x, whats wrong with that? Thats a good thing.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Phluck]
#5349946 - 02/28/06 03:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said: While I am skeptical that someone who can't even comprehend how someone could have an opposing view to theirs would be able to provide any insight into anything...
I can't see how you could possibly think that the homeless are there because that's where they want to be. I've known a lot of people who've taken a lot of different paths in their lives. One thing I've noticed, which is kind of odd, is that there are a lot of intelligent people, who try to work hard, but are easily brought down by stress, and sucked into cycles of laziness. These people mean well, they want to succeed, but their psychological makeup just doesn't allow them to perform the way others do. Some of these people get lucky... I'm sure a lot of successful authors and musicians fall into this catagory.
I've also known a lot of inconsiderate idiots, who can't hold an interesting conversation to save their lives, treat the people around them like toys, and are incredibly organized and successful.
Many conservatives believe that people succeed because they deserve to succeed, and fail because they deserve to fail, but this is nonsense.
Zappa expresses a similar sentiment to mine on this issue. For me it boils down to personal responsibility. Of course i don't actually believe that a lot of the homeless want to be homeless, but when they have the means to help themselves and choose not to or believe they can't, they are solely the one responsible. They might as well want to be homeless.
As well I don't understand why the existence of inequality can not be accepted for what it is, permanent.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel


Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 6 days
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5350029 - 02/28/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Of course inequality is permenant, there really is no way it can be completely eliminated... but that doesn't mean it's a good thing, or that working to reduce it, or at the very least avoiding actively supporting it isn't a good thing to do.
Just because someone has the intelligence and necessary skill set to do much better for themselves doesn't mean they have the necessarily drive or emotional and psychological stability to achieve.
People have trouble accepting that psychological problems are "real". They're still generally seen as kind of illusionary. As though all that's needed to overcome them is a better outlook and a kick in the ass. But we don't really have a choice about how our brains will work, it may seem like it, but we can't suddenly choose to be more motivated and happy.
If you're an intelligent person that has suffered from crippling depression your entire life, and you're not the kind of person who buries their sorrow in work, but gets more lethargic the more depressed they get... you're kind of screwed. Or what about an intelligent kid raised by shitty parents? Sure some of them pull themselves together and are able to achieve, but they're exceptional people, most people raised in shitty circumstances don't become successful. They were never shown what personal responsibility actually is. There are lots of people out there like this, and many of them could benefit from social programs, with the right facets to help them, they could become productive, and ABLE to be personally responsible.
-------------------- "I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson http://phluck.is-after.us
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5350128 - 02/28/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
As well I don't understand why the existence of inequality can not be accepted for what it is, permanent.
I have often heard conservatives say that inequality is justified because people do unequal amounts of work, and I might agree if I thought this was the only source of inequality. However, there are other factors which contribute to inequality which have nothing to do with merit, and I think we should to neutralize these other factors as much as possible. And even then, I still think a certain social safety net should be in place for groups such as the handicapped or retarded, who are unable to work.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Phluck]
#5350172 - 02/28/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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As someone who was raised by uninvolved pothead parents, has horrible problems with procrastination, and has been diagnosed with mild depression and GAD, i still disagree. I feel everyone should be completely responsible for them self/situation, their brain, and whatever it may manifest. And still, i don't understand how you expect to change or lesson this kind of inequality. I've yet to see an effective and reasonable way to combat these problems. However, when one is presented i will consider it.
my heart bleeds now and then but i have an incredibly hard time putting faith into any government programs much less social programs.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Silversoul]
#5350208 - 02/28/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: I have often heard conservatives say that inequality is justified because people do unequal amounts of work, and I might agree if I thought this was the only source of inequality. However, there are other factors which contribute to inequality which have nothing to do with merit, and I think we should to neutralize these other factors as much as possible. And even then, I still think a certain social safety net should be in place for groups such as the handicapped or retarded, who are unable to work.
I am not saying this. I'm saying inequalities having no basis in merit(at least, the person in question's merit) are permanent and unavoidable within reasonable means. Why can't/shouldn't inequality having no basis in merit exist within reason?
And just to clear this up some since we are all being so vague with our modifiers please name some ways to help neutralize these inequalities.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5350243 - 02/28/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said: And just to clear this up some since we are all being so vague with our modifiers please name some ways to help neutralize these inequalities.
Well, the biggest one is one which I've ranted against consistently, which that of rental income from land values. As I've said before, a high land value tax is the way to neutralize this. There are other unfair ways that the rich don't pay their fair share. For example, they might pollute the air while pushing the costs onto the rest of society. By using certain taxes, we can target these externalities, and make people pay for the costs they incur on society. Obviously, it would be counterproductive to neutralize such factors as talent, but we should attempt to a reasonable degree to neutralize those factors which are systemic, and not innate.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Silversoul]
#5350304 - 02/28/06 05:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: Well, the biggest one is one which I've ranted against consistently, which that of rental income from land values. As I've said before, a high land value tax is the way to neutralize this. There are other unfair ways that the rich don't pay their fair share. For example, they might pollute the air while pushing the costs onto the rest of society. By using certain taxes, we can target these externalities, and make people pay for the costs they incur on society. Obviously, it would be counterproductive to neutralize such factors as talent, but we should attempt to a reasonable degree to neutralize those factors which are systemic, and not innate.
I can agree with legislature designed to transfer spillover costs back onto the company producing them because it represents a hidden overallocation of resources which undermines the market system. However, this is in no way clear cut making it very difficult to legislate fairly and accurately. Still, i wish we wouldnt have to do this but its logical if not reasonable.
And i understand the purpose of taxing the rental income from land values but could you give me a link somewhere explaining how it works. Or do it yourself. Mainly, I dont understand when it would be applied.
And do you have any figures on how much the rich makes from this. My parents recently made about $300,000 on a couple acres in south florida within five years. I imagine it must be a lot.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5350339 - 02/28/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said: And i understand the purpose of taxing the rental income from land values but could you give me a link somewhere explaining how it works. Or do it yourself. Mainly, I dont understand when it would be applied.
Basically, land value is socially generated, so the privatization of those profits is essentially a theft from society. What's more is that public infrastructure contributes to the land value of those who reap the most benefit from it, yet the costs of running it are usually incurred on everyone via sales tax. This means that the poor(or those who live on less valuable land) are subsidizing the rich.
Quote:
And do you have any figures on how much the rich makes from this. My parents recently made about $300,000 on a couple acres in south florida within five years. I imagine it must be a lot.
Well, I don't have any exact figures on hand, but just to give you an idea, McDonalds makes most of its money from real estate, not from happy meals. Another case in point is Donald Trump.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Silversoul]
#5350385 - 02/28/06 05:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: Basically, land value is socially generated, so the privatization of those profits is essentially a theft from society. What's more is that public infrastructure contributes to the land value of those who reap the most benefit from it, yet the costs of running it are usually incurred on everyone via sales tax. This means that the poor(or those who live on less valuable land) are subsidizing the rich.
Well, I don't have any exact figures on hand, but just to give you an idea, McDonalds makes most of its money from real estate, not from happy meals. Another case in point is Donald Trump.
You didnt understand what i was asking. I asked when do the land owners incur the tax on the rental income and how is it applied.
And thats fucking crazy about McDonalds. Got a good source so i can show some other people?
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
#5350455 - 02/28/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
d33p said: You didnt understand what i was asking. I asked when do the land owners incur the tax on the rental income and how is it applied.
Oh. Well, basically it works like a property tax, except it only taxes the unimproved value of the land, without taxing the house and other improvements on it. Whereas taxing a product often tends to increase the price, taxing the land would simply defer the cost from private hands to the public coffers. So even if the tax rate is 100%, the homeowner wouldn't be paying any more in taxes than they otherwise would in mortgage payments.
Quote:
And thats fucking crazy about McDonalds. Got a good source so i can show some other people?
I'm afraid I heard that information second-hand, so I don't have a direct source on it. But in general, corporations tend to be the biggest landowners, and a large percentage of the profits they reap come from the land values.
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MisterKite
Stranger


Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5350482 - 02/28/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You guys have given me a lot to consider. After finishing these 3 pages, Libertarianism seems much more appealing and reasonable. What truly i have been granted from this discussion, though, is an ilumination of my economic ignorance, and my complete disregard for motivating factors and government irresponsibility.
It always feels good to be slapped in the face every now and again, thank you d33p.
As to SirTripAlot
Quote:
You are so high on dog shit, I do not know were to start.......
When Reagan assumed office, the national debt was just under $1,000,000,000,000. When he left eight years later, it had tripled, reaching $4,000,000,000,000. Look at any diagram showing the national debt through the presidencies, and Reagan is (to use a ski analogy) a double black diamond compared to the green runs of previous presidencies.
If you are going to lambast me with ridiculous insults with no justifaction, at least get your facts straight: I'm high on mushies, not dogshit
-------------------- "But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5350555 - 02/28/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterKite said: You guys have given me a lot to consider. After finishing these 3 pages, Libertarianism seems much more appealing and reasonable. What truly i have been granted from this discussion, though, is an ilumination of my economic ignorance, and my complete disregard for motivating factors and government irresponsibility.
It always feels good to be slapped in the face every now and again, thank you d33p.
As to SirTripAlot
Quote:
You are so high on dog shit, I do not know were to start.......
When Reagan assumed office, the national debt was just under $1,000,000,000,000. When he left eight years later, it had tripled, reaching $4,000,000,000,000. Look at any diagram showing the national debt through the presidencies, and Reagan is (to use a ski analogy) a double black diamond compared to the green runs of previous presidencies.
If you are going to lambast me with ridiculous insults with no justifaction, at least get your facts straight: I'm high on mushies, not dogshit
I'm just gonna go ahead and quote this for future reference. lol
And if you serriously mean was you say it makes me and I'm sure many others here feel good. Its not everyday you can change someones mind and there have been very few conversions here in PAL, eventhough we have all changed except for a few.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5350572 - 02/28/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterKite said: You guys have given me a lot to consider. After finishing these 3 pages, Libertarianism seems much more appealing and reasonable.
Welcome to the Dark Side my young apprentice.

Your next task is to construct a light saber and then read "Atlas Shrugged".
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5350625 - 02/28/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You know, you are only focusing on income tax. Try living in Chicago or San Francisco, both liberal "meccas", if you are poor. Hell, try living there if you are middle class and you will suddenly be poor.
Everyone in chicago, rich and poor, pays nearly 10% sales tax on goods. Everyone also pays the same insane multiple property taxes there so I hope lower income families never desire to own a home. Need a vehicle to get to work? Be ready to pay thousands of dollars a year in vehicle stickers, license tax, "wheel" taxes, parking taxes, and tolls. They start taxing you the minute you step out the door in the morning and they don't stop until you come home at night with nothing left. When you actually look at what they spend this money on, it amounts to nothing more than theft.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5352395 - 03/01/06 05:45 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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On the other hand...
What percentage of taxes are paid by the wealthiest 5% of Americans? The wealthiest 5 percent have 59% of the wealth and pay 38.4 percent of federal taxes. The wealthiest 1 percent have over 38 percent of the wealth and pay 24.8 percent of federal taxes. These households have an average wealth of $10.2 million and pay only 3.5 percent of their wealth in taxes. By way of comparison, the bottom 40 percent of taxpayers have an average net wealth of $1,100 and pay 163 percent of their net wealth in taxes.
If all taxpayers paid the same 10.5 percent of their wealth in taxes as median income families pay, the taxes of the lowest 40 percent would be cut by 94 percent while the taxes of the wealthiest would triple.
Source: Congressional Budget Office and United for a Fair Economy
In Minnesota how does the rate of taxation paid by people making over $845,000 compare with the rate of taxation paid by those making less than $27,000 per year?
When all state and local taxes are considered, Minnesotans making more than $845,000 a year will pay 7.7% of their income in taxes, while those making less than $27,000 a year will pay 11.3%. That's an effective rate nearly one and a half times higher than the top end.
http://www.osjspm.org/101_taxes.htm#8
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 22 minutes, 16 seconds
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Alex213]
#5352520 - 03/01/06 07:21 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Misterkite,
For you to suggest that Reagan is the sole source problem of our current national debt, is completely false. There have been several presidents since Reagan left office that have had tremendous spending issues (to include the current one).
What is your understanding of the national debt?
Who is going to collect from the USA on this debt?
Mostly, the USA debt is a just number.
How many countries out there do you think owe us money?????
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
#5352900 - 03/01/06 09:45 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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After finishing these 3 pages, Libertarianism seems much more appealing and reasonable
I thought that at first too, it's when they start going on about leaving the disabled to starve to death in the street that I tuned out. Apparantly the theory is if you stop the rich paying any tax they'll turn over a new leaf and suddenly become really generous, giving money to charity instead of spending it on their second holiday homes.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5353157 - 03/01/06 11:02 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Misterkite,
For you to suggest that Reagan is the sole source problem of our current national debt, is completely false. There have been several presidents since Reagan left office that have had tremendous spending issues (to include the current one).
What is your understanding of the national debt?
Who is going to collect from the USA on this debt?
Mostly, the USA debt is a just number.
How many countries out there do you think owe us money?????
There have been several presidents who have had spending problems since them (pretty much all of them), but Reagan was the one who started the whole pattern of spending much, more more than we have.
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