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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347426 - 02/27/06 10:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Im about to hit the sack so sorry for taking the lazy route.

Quote:

MisterKite said:
This isn't about rewarding indolence, it's about stopping the growing economic gap between the super wealthy and the rest of the nation.

Explain to me what is inherently wrong with disparity of wealth between classes.

I'm not suggesting throwing money at the problem, I'm suggesting using money to increase the living conditions and educational system of America so that people have better opportunities to rise in economic status.

I'm suggesting everyone just smartens up, gets along, and leads happy productive lives. Sounds good doesn't it?

BTW, I liked the mocking tone of the post. It was pretty funny  :grin:

Final point: I dont want increased taxes for working class America. I want it for that top 1%, which clings greedily to the nation's wealth.
What, are you training to be a politician? It's their money isn't it? How about you try to accomplish what you want without stealing especially when historically it hasn't shown to help.

An untouched capitalist system invariably allocates the majority of its wealth in a few individuals. The government should relocate that wealth into social programs that benefit the nation.

Have you ever taken a higher level economics class? I smell ignorance.

I, myself, have had friends whose parents have 7 or 8 homes across the world, who have several cars that cost more than the greater majority of the world will earn in a lifetime, etc. This is not right, especially when in the same city (Los Angeles), you can go downtown and find rows upon rows of people sleeping on the streets. The people sleeping on the streets do not want to be there, they are not lazy. They simply have not had the same opportunities as the wealthy. It shoudl be the government's job to supply these opportunities.




I disagree with everything you say in this last paragraph


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347472 - 02/27/06 10:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

.


Edited by DieCommie (11/15/16 11:28 AM)


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InvisibleNoetical
Flip Horrorshow

Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 9,230
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347482 - 02/27/06 10:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Here are some facts on Canadian Taxation:

19.9% of Tax Payers Income between $50,000 - $100,000
They account 34.9% of all Federal Personal Income Tax

2.7% of Tax Payers Income over $100,000
They account for 31.7% of all Federal Personal Income Tax


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OfflineSkeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347575 - 02/27/06 10:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Mr. Kite, do you think increased taxes make the populous more wealthy? Is a higher level of taxation the most important factor in increasing the general welfare? Please explain.


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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OfflineMisterKite
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5347699 - 02/27/06 11:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You do realize that America does not have a flat federal tax rate? We have a graduated tax rate. This means that the more money you make the higher the percentage you must pay to the federal government.




I was responding to redstrom's beliefs. I am very well aware of our progressive tax system.

Quote:

Ever hear of public education? Billions upon billions of dollars are pumped into it. If you are a child in America it matters not where you live or how poor you are, you are given free education up until grade 12.




A large amount of public education in America is of shameful quality. Not only that, but our universities are grotesquely expensive, and federal aid is becoming harder, and more difficult to receive. In Canada, it costs $2000 a year to go to some of the finest colleges in North America. In the U.S., college can cost up to $50000 a year.

Quote:

Poor people are not refused the right to an education or health care. As I said earlier, all children (no matter how poor) are allowed access to free public education up until grade 12. Also, if you are poor you can usually get on Medicaid (which pays most if not all of any medical bills you or your child may have). And there are many stories of people starting out poor and ending up quite wealthy because of hard work or ingenuity.




Sure, poor people can get an education. But that education will be just like them: poor. In some states, schools are almost solely funded by local taxes. If you live in a poor area, then your school will receive very little funding. If you live in an affluent area, your school will receive tremendous funding. Once again, the disparity between classes grows bigger.


--------------------
"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


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OfflineMisterKite
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347734 - 02/27/06 11:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

To deep:

It's true, I have not taken an advanced economic class. Have you? If so, where?

Also, you replied with that mocking (but entertaining) post, but you didn't address any of the facts I had. You simply took an opportunity to deprecate liberals as I had conservatives. Please show some insight into what I said.

To someone, I forget who, who said that they don't see the problem with class gaps, I'm stunned. Class gaps have been a consistent source of revolution, turmoil, and oppression. Russian revolution, French revolution, Watts riots, the recent French riots, etc. Class gaps also deprive a significant portion of the population from benefits that can help build society, such as education.

To Skeptikos:

Higher taxation, especially for the megarich, diffuses wealth from a few individuals back to the people. With improved social services, the lower class will have access to the stepping stones into the middle class, such as a cheap college education. Many poor people are poor because they are forced to drop out of high school and work to help support their family. With improved welfare, citizens can finish their education to get the jobs and skills needed to rise in the economic hierarchy.


chemiKalz, I'm moving to montreal in the fall. I wasn't kidding when I said I couldn't wait to move to Canada. :smile:


--------------------
"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347757 - 02/27/06 11:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I would be more inclined to cut other parts of the budget (farming subsidies or defense) to fund education than to raise taxes.

Also, there is also the option of privatizing education and providing the poor with vouchers to be able to afford schooling they wouldn't normally get.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347778 - 02/27/06 11:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MisterKite said:
Sure, poor people can get an education. But that education will be just like them: poor. In some states, schools are almost solely funded by local taxes. If you live in a poor area, then your school will receive very little funding. If you live in an affluent area, your school will receive tremendous funding. Once again, the disparity between classes grows bigger.




Schools that are in areas where not a lot of property tax is being collected are heavily subsidized by the federal government.


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5348419 - 02/28/06 07:00 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Higher taxation, especially for the megarich, diffuses wealth from a few individuals back to the people. With improved social services, the lower class will have access to the stepping stones into the middle class, such as a cheap college education. Many poor people are poor because they are forced to drop out of high school and work to help support their family. With improved welfare, citizens can finish their education to get the jobs and skills needed to rise in the economic hierarchy.




That very simply is not the way it works. The more heavily you tax the wealthy the less they spend and the less they give which is bad for the economy and your beloved poor. Take a look at New Orleans to see what a disaster welfare can cause.

I think I posted an article a while back, I'll try to find it.

Edit: looks like someone else posted the article.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4618728#Post4618728


Edited by newuser1492 (02/28/06 07:07 AM)


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OfflineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,460
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 2 hours, 39 minutes
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: newuser1492]
    #5348434 - 02/28/06 07:20 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Reagan, a supposed fiscal conservative, is solely responsible for the enormity of our nation's present debt


You are so high on dog shit, I do not know were to start.......


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5348747 - 02/28/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Reagan was not fiscally conservative.


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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 6 days
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
    #5348796 - 02/28/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:



"I, myself, have had friends whose parents have 7 or 8 homes across the world, who have several cars that cost more than the greater majority of the world will earn in a lifetime, etc. This is not right, especially when in the same city (Los Angeles), you can go downtown and find rows upon rows of people sleeping on the streets. The people sleeping on the streets do not want to be there, they are not lazy. They simply have not had the same opportunities as the wealthy. It shoudl be the government's job to supply these opportunities."



I disagree with everything you say in this last paragraph




While I am skeptical that someone who can't even comprehend how someone could have an opposing view to theirs would be able to provide any insight into anything...

I can't see how you could possibly think that the homeless are there because that's where they want to be. I've known a lot of people who've taken a lot of different paths in their lives. One thing I've noticed, which is kind of odd, is that there are a lot of intelligent people, who try to work hard, but are easily brought down by stress, and sucked into cycles of laziness. These people mean well, they want to succeed, but their psychological makeup just doesn't allow them to perform the way others do. Some of these people get lucky... I'm sure a lot of successful authors and musicians fall into this catagory.

I've also known a lot of inconsiderate idiots, who can't hold an interesting conversation to save their lives, treat the people around them like toys, and are incredibly organized and successful.

Many conservatives believe that people succeed because they deserve to succeed, and fail because they deserve to fail, but this is nonsense.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineSkeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5349171 - 02/28/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I would be more inclined to cut other parts of the budget (farming subsidies or defense) to fund education than to raise taxes.



The simple fact is that government is just too big, too intrusive and too expensive. Deficit spending (via monetization of the debt and increasing the money supply) shifts the tax burden upon the holder of every dollar in circulation by debasing the currency, and to future taxpayers who will have to refinance or pay off the debt. The government collects more than enough money in taxes, it just spends way too much on too many things which are not essential, which favor certain well to do and well connected individuals and industries.


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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OfflineSkeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5349233 - 02/28/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MisterKite said:
To Skeptikos:

Higher taxation, especially for the megarich, diffuses wealth from a few individuals back to the people.



Taking money from those who earn it and giving it to those who have not, is not diffusing wealth 'back to the people.' It is simply using the government to rob some for the benefit of others. Redistribution ameliorates the poor's wants for today, but does nothing to imbue them with the traits needed for making them tax producers instead of tax consumers

Quote:

With improved social services, the lower class will have access to the stepping stones into the middle class, such as a cheap college education.



Government has never spent so much in history as it does today. The benefits you are touting are not in evidence. More money thrown at something does not equate to improving it.

Quote:

Many poor people are poor because they are forced to drop out of high school and work to help support their family.



Funny, my immigrant grand parents with as little as an eighth grade education were able to prosper. Becoming landlords and owners of various income producing enterprises.

Quote:

With improved welfare, citizens can finish their education to get the jobs and skills needed to rise in the economic hierarchy.



The facts are not in evidence to support your contention. It takes more than welfare to rise economically. Behavior and attitude can not be dispensed with government hand outs, but are essential to improving oneself economically. The desire to forgo immediate gratification, to save for desired future material improvements is one of the most important traits which help people to advance economically. This behavior is not promoted through welfare, indeed it seems to be diminished through the increasing interference of the government in people's lives.


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: Phluck]
    #5349655 - 02/28/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:

Many conservatives believe that people succeed because they deserve to succeed, and fail because they deserve to fail, but this is nonsense.




I do not believe in "deserving" but I do believe that you are the main person responsible for what happens to you when you fail as catastrophicly as becoming homeless in this country. You pretty much have to actively seek failure to not be able to support yourself here. Or be in the relatively tiny percentage that is truly geneticly fucked or the victim of some kind of hideous accident. Does Paris Hilton deserve anything? NO. She however is irrelevant to any discussion of homelessness or hunger. Frankly, I think she is out of the loop of Homo Sapiens and I doubt it will turn out all that well for her.

You really really have to choose to fuck up to fail here. Shut up, go to work on time, stay away from babies you can't support and you will be fine. Get pregnant at 15, get high all day and miss appointments and work, or tell everyone you come in contact with what inferior proletariat assholes they are and you can sleep in a fucking dumpster. Enjoy, cunthead. I aint interested in paying for your room at the fleabag ritz. If that is what you choose then fuck you. Remember, just say no to babies, they are the life killer.


--------------------


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Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5349668 - 02/28/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

This article seems surprisingly relevant.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060227/ts_usatoday/lotterywinnersgoodluckcangobadfast

Quote:

Gerry Beyer, who teaches estate law at Texas Tech University, has written about people who come into sudden wealth - such as lottery winners, sports figures, actors and actresses - and how they end up losing it. Many don't realize that if they spend their money, rather than investing and living off the earnings, "there's nothing to replace it," Beyer says.




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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5349682 - 02/28/06 02:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Believe me when I tell you that I know some absolute retards and assholes who are rich as hell. I long ago got over whining about why assholes have money. I chose to go out and get my own. They got more, but I can't do anything about that. I can only act on my own. Stop whining about what the kid down the hall has. Envy is probably the most destructive of the seven deadly sins


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5349788 - 02/28/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Most taxes are harmful to the economy. Furthermore, the welfare state in its current form tends to lead to phenomenon lazy slobs sitting on the couch watching daytime TV while supporting themselves on taxpayer dollars. Now, let me make it clear that I am not a conservative, but neither do I support the economic ignorance that you display. The taxes you support tend to stagnate the economy. Thus, there is less money to be redistributed. The conservative answer is simply to tax less, or, as Redstorm pointed out, a flat tax.

Now, I happen to think a flat tax would be a good start, as it would simplify the tax system, making fewer loopholes for corporations, but I think there are smarter methods of taxation than that. A step further in the right direction would be a negative income tax. And even superior alternative is the pigovian tax, as it specifically targets market failures. The best tax, however, is the land value tax, as it corrects the main externality that creates such large gaps between rich and poor.

Now, I'm sure that all went over your head, so I'll just talk specifically about the welfare state. Now, I'm not completely against the idea of the welfare state, but it most definitely is not satisfactory in its current form. We need a welfare state that helps people help themselves, rather than encouraging people to be lazy parasites, which is what our current system does.


--------------------


Edited by Paradigm (02/28/06 03:00 PM)


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Offlinepeace_n_love
Soldier of Knowledge
Male

Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 186
Loc: Canada :)
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5349858 - 02/28/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"I can't wait to move to Canada." by MisterKite

Hey man, the Conservative party just got elected here...not much different up here unless your talking about BC, everythings different over here.

Peacefulness.


Edited by peace_n_love (02/28/06 03:00 PM)


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5349891 - 02/28/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MisterKite said:
To deep:

It's true, I have not taken an advanced economic class. Have you? If so, where?

Also, you replied with that mocking (but entertaining) post, but you didn't address any of the facts I had. You simply took an opportunity to deprecate liberals as I had conservatives. Please show some insight into what I said.

To someone, I forget who, who said that they don't see the problem with class gaps, I'm stunned. Class gaps have been a consistent source of revolution, turmoil, and oppression. Russian revolution, French revolution, Watts riots, the recent French riots, etc. Class gaps also deprive a significant portion of the population from benefits that can help build society, such as education.




Macro and Micro Economics at Purdue University.

IMHO your first post was mainly an opinion piece written with quite deceptive language which is why i choose to just mock it and leave it at that.

The actual facts you stated dont impress me. A lot of that is due to the existence of natural monopolies or similar cost curves which lend to oligopolistic markets. I understand that this is just reality and that imposing unreasonable taxes is not the solution.

If you would have focused your post on or mentioned methods of increasing the incentive to "spread the wealth" then i would have been interested in discussing it. As well some of the socialistic policies of the government have led to these gaps and ultimately i feel that if the system was more capitalistic these gaps would be much smaller or nonexistent.

And all of those events which you mention are complex and none of them can be explained by class gaps as caused by a capitalistic market economy.

And finally i completely disagree that one person or a group of people being rich in America deprives anyone else of anything.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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