Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineMisterKite
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
How is it possible to be conservative?
    #5347092 - 02/27/06 08:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I just don't see how anyone could possibly conceive that conservatism is an intelligent, rational decision.

By cutting taxes, one is depriving the nation's poorest and most needy citizens of essential services, while pouring money into the coffers of corporate behemoths. COnservatives don't seem to understand that money grows exponentially. That is to say, the more money you begin with, the more money you can earn. Thus, by giving ridiculous tax breaks to corporations and the nation's wealtheist citizens, as conservative adminsitrations have been known to do, you are escalating the wealth of a very few elite while everyone else lags behind.

For example, in the last 30 years the income of the nations top 20% has grown 37%. The income of the nation's top 99.99% has grown 497%.

50% of the nation's wealth lies within the nation's top 1%.


While this .01% reaps in the enormomous benefits of Bush's tax cuts, Medicaid, welfare and education have their budget dwindled and dwindled.


Does this make sense to anyone? How do these glaring figures escape every Southern state? Maybe the facts are too hard to hear over the incessant repition of "war" "terror" 9/11" "freedom" "liberty".

I can't wait to move to Canada.


--------------------
"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347108 - 02/27/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I would count myself fiscally conservative while socially liberal.

I believe the gov't should keep their hands out of the economy. I think we should move to a regressive tax rate. Tax everyone the same and people can stop bitching.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMisterKite
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5347134 - 02/27/06 08:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Did you not just read anything I posted? Obviously, a flat tax rate leads to huge economic disparities amongst the populace. This disparity allows for an elite few to be educated, assume positions of power, and therefore control the nation. Those that weren't born into such economic comfort, however, are refused the right to an education, health care, and basic government services because, with a flat tax rate, there is not proper financing for expenditures.

Yea, it sucks to be taxed, to have your money thrown into the gaping mouth of a bureaucratic leviathon. But the truth is, is that taxes are how countries and economies progress.


--------------------
"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347142 - 02/27/06 08:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

So are you saying people should get lower tax rates just because they are poor?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMisterKite
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5347154 - 02/27/06 09:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Double post, sorry.


--------------------
"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


Edited by MisterKite (02/27/06 09:18 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347175 - 02/27/06 09:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I read what you said and I disagree. The wealthy should not have to pay any higher rates than the poor. If I was rich, I wouldn't believe I should have to pay a higher rate just because I am successful. I would already paying more to the gov't than an impoverished person b/c I make more. Why should I also have to pay a higher rate?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblenewuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347208 - 02/27/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think you have a correct understanding of what being truly fiscally convervative means.

The policies implemented by the modern concervative party are far from truly fiscally conservative. The US government may be cutting medicare but it isn't reducing spending or taxes. Corporate tax breaks run rampant in this country.

Quote:

But the truth is, is that taxes are how countries and economies progress.




You should realize that their is a direct correlation between decreased taxation and increase economic prosperity.

If you're looking for a better system of taxation take a look at Georgism.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347220 - 02/27/06 09:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Your post is full of some facts and some errors.

As far as the wealthy getting wealthier in America....yes this has happened.  You are correct on that.

As far as public education or the entitlement programs having "dwindling" budgets, this is not true.  Yes, the federal government did recently cut a tiny amount out of the Medicaid budget, but the states will pick up the difference.  So, all of the poor people who were getting free medical care through Medicaid will still get it.  Medicare had a prescription drug benefit instituted recently which means that the federal government now pays a significant amount of old people's prescription drug costs.  By the way...the "evil, heartless, and austere" Bush pushed for that (admittedly probably just to pander to the senior vote).

Not everybody wants the government interfering with the economy and stealing from the rich to give to the poor.  :shrug:  That doesn't mean that fiscal conservatives are stupid...just that they have a different viewpoint than you.


Edited by RandalFlagg (02/27/06 09:26 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347229 - 02/27/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe the government should seize everything!

of course only if the government thinks that someone else needs it.

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs. :crazy2:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347242 - 02/27/06 09:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MisterKite said:
Did you not just read anything I posted? Obviously, a flat tax rate leads to huge economic disparities amongst the populace.





You do realize that America does not have a flat federal tax rate?  We have a graduated tax rate.  This means that the more money you make the higher the percentage you must pay to the federal government.

Quote:

MisterKite said:
This disparity allows for an elite few to be educated, assume positions of power, and therefore control the nation.





Ever hear of public education?  Billions upon billions of dollars are pumped into it.  If you are a child in America it matters not where you live or how poor you are, you are given free education up until grade 12.

Quote:

MisterKite said:
Those that weren't born into such economic comfort, however, are refused the right to an education, health care, and basic government services because, with a flat tax rate, there is not proper financing for expenditures.





Poor people are not refused the right to an education or health care.  As I said earlier, all children (no matter how poor) are allowed access to free public education up until grade 12.  Also, if you are poor you can usually get on Medicaid (which pays most if not all of any medical bills you or your child may have).  And there are many stories of people starting out poor and ending up quite wealthy because of hard work or ingenuity. 

Does it make things easier to be born rich?  Of course it does.  Is it necessary to be born rich in order to make it in America?  No.


Quote:

MisterKite said:
But the truth is, is that taxes are how countries and economies progress.




:lol:  A lot of people will disagree with you on that one.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMisterKite
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5347245 - 02/27/06 09:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

In response to redstrom:

Many rich people are only successful because they were born intol wealth. Wealth perpetuates wealth. What this creates is an elitist class that becomes ingrained into the upper echelons of society, and stifles the opportunity of the lower class.

To cb9fl:

The federal government isn't reducing taxation? Are you kidding me? The wealthiest members of society have received gargantuan tax breaks in these last 6 years.


And the corelation between tax breaks and prosperity, I have yet to believe that. Look at the blossoming Scandinavian countries, some of the richest nations in the world. They have very high, very socialist tax rates.
America, on the other hand, had a DEPRESSION result from the laissez-faire economic policies of the 1920's. Then there was the recession resulting from Reagan's huge tax cuts. SO show me a graph or something, because this doesn't seem believable to me.

To randallflag:

I'm not calling fiscal conservatives stupid, perhaps naive, but not stupid.
I'm glad to hear about Medicaid keeping afloat. BUT, it is true that the recently projected budget has cuts pretty much across the board, (including significant reductions to federal grant money to college education [less people with a college education, just what we need]), which has worried the House Republicans because of upcoming elections.


--------------------
"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347264 - 02/27/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MisterKite said:
BUT, it is true that the recently projected budget has cuts pretty much across the board, (including significant reductions to federal grant money to college education [less people with a college education, just what we need]), which has worried the House Republicans because of upcoming elections.




I think I did hear about some federal grant type stuff for higher education being trimmed some.

I think we need to trim a hell of a lot more than that though. Our nation has an immense debt which we pay interest on and we are leaving it for our children to take care of. We can either have high amounts of services and high taxes or low amounts of services and low taxes. We can't have high services and inadequate taxes. When we do that we borrow money. When we borrow money we get into debt. This is not a good thing for individuals or nations.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347279 - 02/27/06 09:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

How can anyone be liberal?

I just don't see how anyone could possibly conceive that liberalism is an intelligent, rational decision.

By raising taxes and increasing government spending, one is needlessly depriving the nation's hardest working and most productive citizens of essential incentive to continue their efforts, while pouring money into the endless pits of government social programs. Liberals don't seem to understand that throwing money at the problem does not work. That is to say, the more money you give, the less incentive these people have to do better. Thus, by giving ridiculous handouts to the largely undeserving and the nation's most indolent citizens , as liberal adminsitrations have been known to do, you are rewarding incompetence and laziness while shafting the productive and deserving taxpayers.

Does this make sense to anyone? How do these glaring economic and logical principles escape every Nothern state? Maybe the facts are too hard to hear over the incessant repetition of "equality of outcome" "welfare" social security" "racist" "look at me i have no understand of the market system".

I can't wait to move to, shit i guess I'm still looking.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMisterKite
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5347283 - 02/27/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

We can't have high services and inadequate taxes. When we do that we borrow money. When we borrow money we get into debt.






Like Reagan did when he invested hundreds of billions into defense while making huge cuts to taxes?


Reagan, a supposed fiscal conservative, is solely responsible for the enormity of our nation's present debt. He broguht our nation's well through the trillions, ultimately borrowing even more money than all the presidencies before him COMBINED.

That's very conservative spending....


I like how Bush claims that he is tryign to alleviate the debt when our yearly deficit runs at 400 billion this year. How can you alleviate the debt when there's a deficit!!

The only recent president to have a yearly surplus rather tahn deficit to help quench the insatiable thirst of our debt is President Bill Clinton, A DEMOCRAT!

It's late, I have work. Enjoy discussing.


--------------------
"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


Edited by MisterKite (02/27/06 09:49 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
    #5347285 - 02/27/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The current incarnations of both liberalism and conservatism in America make me want to barf. I have harsh words for both.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347294 - 02/27/06 09:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MisterKite said:
Like Reagan did when he invested hundreds of billions into defense while making huge cuts to taxes?

I like how Bush claims that he is tryign to alleviate the debt when our yearly deficit runs at 400 billion this year. How can you alleviate the debt when there's a deficit!!





Modern Republicans are not fiscal conservatives. They blather on and on about how they are, but they are lying. They spend more money and accrue more debt than the Democrats do.

Quote:

MisterKite said:
The only recent president to have a yearly surplus rather tahn deficit to help quench the insatiable thirst of our debt is President Bill Clinton, A DEMOCRAT!




True. When we had those late 90's surpluses I became somewhat optimistic that fiscal sanity had returned to the upper echelons of the federal government. Things didn't stay that way though.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMisterKite
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: d33p]
    #5347299 - 02/27/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
How can anyone be liberal?

I just don't see how anyone could possibly conceive that liberalism is an intelligent, rational decision.

By raising taxes and increasing government spending, one is needlessly depriving the nation's hardest working and most productive citizens of essential incentive to continue their efforts, while pouring money into the endless pits of government social programs. Liberals don't seem to understand that throwing money at the problem does not work. That is to say, the more money you give, the less incentive these people have to do better. Thus, by giving ridiculous handouts to the largely undeserving and the nation's most indolent citizens , as liberal adminsitrations have been known to do, you are rewarding incompetence and laziness while shafting the productive and deserving taxpayers.

Does this make sense to anyone? How do these glaring economic and logical principles escape every Nothern state? Maybe the facts are too hard to hear over the incessant repetition of "equality of outcome" "welfare" social security" "racist" "look at me i have no understand of the market system".

I can't wait to move to, shit i guess I'm still looking.





This isn't about rewarding indolence, it's about stopping the growing economic gap between the super wealthy and the rest of the nation.

I'm not suggesting throwing money at the problem, I'm suggesting using money to increase the living conditions and educational system of America so that people have better opportunities to rise in economic status.

BTW, I liked the mocking tone of the post. It was pretty funny  :grin:

Final point: I dont want increased taxes for working class America. I want it for that top 1%, which clings greedily to the nation's wealth.

An untouched capitalist system invariably allocates the majority of its wealth in a few individuals. The government should relocate that wealth into social programs that benefit the nation.

I, myself, have had friends whose parents have 7 or 8 homes across the world, who have several cars that cost more than the greater majority of the world will earn in a lifetime, etc. This is not right, especially when in the same city (Los Angeles), you can go downtown and find rows upon rows of people sleeping on the streets. The people sleeping on the streets do not want to be there, they are not lazy. They simply have not had the same opportunities as the wealthy. It shoudl be the government's job to supply these opportunities.


--------------------
"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5347300 - 02/27/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
The current incarnations of both liberalism and conservatism in America make me want to barf. I have harsh words for both.




I would agree. Its really a shame. I'm dying to know what textbooks 100, 50, or even 20 years from now will say about the american government and the world stage. These are some crazy and fucked up times we happened to be born in.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinechemiKalz
u r tripp0r?
Male
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 761
Loc: upstate ny
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: How is it possible to be conservative? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347312 - 02/27/06 09:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Me and misterkite need to find canadian spouses so we can become canadian citizens! and live off thier welfare state hooray!

im not even joking


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: How can anyone be liberal? [Re: MisterKite]
    #5347333 - 02/27/06 09:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MisterKite said:
The people sleeping on the streets do not want to be there, they are not lazy. They simply have not had the same opportunities as the wealthy. It shoudl be the government's job to supply these opportunities.




I adamantly disagree with you. I prefer that the government stay out of people's economic and personal lives as much as is possible.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Liberals suck. So do conservatives.
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Anonymous 9,879 105 01/26/03 12:53 PM
by GoBlue!
* Obama the right choice for conservatives? phi1618 1,865 8 03/27/08 10:06 AM
by Seuss
* Liberal vs. Conservative silversoul7 1,525 4 09/19/04 08:34 PM
by RandalFlagg
* Conservatives Against a War with Iraq Evolving 808 3 03/12/03 12:27 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* Examining the phenomenon of conservative success in America carbonhoots 969 3 04/15/04 07:36 PM
by BleaK
* Why are conservatives so heartless and cruel?
( 1 2 3 all )
Ellis Dee 4,557 48 03/06/03 09:12 AM
by EchoVortex
* Research on conservatives finds them 'less complex'.
( 1 2 3 all )
Edame 3,538 41 07/30/03 03:53 PM
by Phred
* I wish all conservatives would just die
( 1 2 3 all )
kronnyQ 5,088 54 01/19/05 11:17 AM
by Innvertigo

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
4,213 topic views. 0 members, 9 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.035 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 16 queries.